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Old 03-28-2009, 09:27 PM   #1
Xanthos
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Project "Xanthos" blueprint.

Saw this section of the forums and figured I’d post a project blue print for my 400 flywheel horsepower, (stock) SS beating 1LS.

My build is rather simplistic, mostly because of how amazing this engine already is. The only internal work I plan on doing in the future is possibly a cam swap. Of course, there are no cams available for this engine yet, so my build is currently set to hit 400 flywheel horsepower (or close enough to it for practical purposes) without them. With them, I expect to be able to push that figure a bit higher.

Before reading this write-up, you have to understand that I have not, for obvious reasons, been able to actually get my hands on one of these cars. A lot of my figures are hypothetical, though based on as much fact as I could secure through extensive – and possibly even excessive – amounts of research.

With that said, let’s get started on the blueprint. For those of you who just want to see the numbers, feel free to skip to the end.





First up, the exhaust.

I plan on running a full 2.25 inch exhaust on my V6, which I feel will be plenty for a N/A engine – especially with the dual exhaust setup the V6 comes with. As it stands right now, the plan is:

Long Tubes – High Flow Cats (x2 per side) – stock piping – Borla XR-1 mufflers

Using this setup, exhaust flow should be restricted only by the 2.25 inch piping, at about 730 cm, which is acceptable to me. Ideal flow for 400 hp would be about 880 cfm*, so there will be a restriction still, but nothing extreme. The headers should flow far more than 730 cfm, the cats about 870 cfm**, and the mufflers should flow an amazing 1042 cfm*. The stock resonators will be replaced with test pipe if the final setup turns out to be too quiet for my tastes.


As this engine gained 18 rwhp from a catback alone***, I’m expecting about that from my exhaust not counting the headers or cats (while I won’t be “improving” the bends, I’ll be using much better mufflers), and I expect about 10-12 rwhp from the cats (there are four of them. Replacing the two cats on an LS1 nets 8 rwhp**) and about 20 rwhp (which I feel is very conservative) for the headers. So total we’re looking at about 50 rwhp from the exhaust.





Next up, the intake.

I’m going to be running a full 3 inch intake. From the TB, I will mount a 90 degree bend to send the pipe down straight in front of the engine. After this bend will be a Y-pipe, and then two more bends to bring the pipes out to the side and slightly up, allowing me to mount the air filters (of which there will be two) up and between the engine and the fenders – similar to the filter placement of the GMPP intake, except there will be one on each side. The MAF sensor will be mounted right after the Y converges. I expect to get as much power from this setup as D3 gained from their intake (13 rwhp***), if not slightly more.

Fairly straight forward.





Finally, the random bits.

If you’ve been using your calculator, you’d see that this setup so far will net me about 63 rwhp, or about 74 flywheel ponies, which still puts me 22 horses short of my goal of 400 fwhp. That’s where the last few mods come into play. With some advice from CamaroSpike23, I’ve come up with an idea for a system that should net me those last 22 (19 rw) ponies.

I’m going to split the vacuum line for the MAP sensor to two additional places. The first will be a stage 2 methanol injection system (the injector will be installed in the final space right before the throttle body). Basically what this means is that once the engine reaches a certain RPM the methanol will spray into the air stream at a rate based on intake pressure, which will cool the air and increase the charge density.

The second will be to a rising rate fuel pressure regulator, using a low fuel pressure/air pressure ratio. I’m looking at something like 2:1, but I’ll have to tune it after I get it installed, just like I’ll have to tune the methanol activation settings.

I’m fairly confident this will net at least the 19 rwhp that I would still need to hit my 400 fwhp number.





As for pricing, we’re looking at 505 for the headers, 260 for the cats (65 each x4), and 262 for the mufflers (131 each); about 150 for the intake, which will be custom built using the Spectre performance custom modular intake system; 579 for the methanol system; and 225 for the fuel pressure regulator.

For a grand total of $1981 not including the labor for installing the exhaust – not bad for 100 horses at the flywheel.





In addition to the engine mods (since I’m not one for a straight line only drag car) I’ll be getting the pedder’s sport suspension package (699.00) and rear coils (89.62 each – 179.24 total).

I’d also like to get the Baer Pro-Plus 6 piston brake upgrade, but at 3790 for front and rear, not counting install – it’s a bit pricy. I may just settle for some braided steel brake lines and a rotor upgrade when somebody comes out with them.

Total price – 25854.24 not counting labor on the exhaust and suspension. With the brake upgrade it would be right at 29650. Right about the same price as an SS after you count labor, and it should be about the same in a straight line, and a bit better in the curves.

And I tried to use very conservative numbers for the cases that didn't have solid research and dyno testing. I would expect long tubes to net more than 20 hp, for example.
- Xanthos

Related links:


Works Cited.


* catalytic converter flow testing: http://www.installuniversity.com/ins...n11.122001.htm

** muffler flow testing: http://www.broaderperformance.com/mu...flow_tests.htm

*** LLT V6 responsiveness to mods: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5565


Parts catalogs.


1) headers: http://www.bestmufflers.com/bshop/pr...95d4b7d61b5671

2) cats: http://www.jegs.com/i/Magnaflow/642/91005/10002/-1

3) mufflers: http://www.jegs.com/i/Borla/157/40941/10002/-1

4) suspension: https://secure.merlinsoftware.com.au...&Level2=CAMARO and https://secure.merlinsoftware.com.au...?ProdCode=7955

5) methanol injection: http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=7

6) fuel pressure regulator: http://www.bellengineering.net/produ...&products_id=2 and bracket: http://www.bellengineering.net/produ...roducts_id=190
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Old 03-28-2009, 09:30 PM   #2
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Nice. When can I go for a ride???
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Old 03-28-2009, 09:30 PM   #3
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Nice. When can I go for a ride???
After I buy it from you, Scotty. You're going to hook me up with the first 2011 model on these forums.
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Old 03-28-2009, 09:40 PM   #4
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Awesome.
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Old 03-28-2009, 09:51 PM   #5
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sounds like a great set up.
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Old 03-28-2009, 10:04 PM   #6
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While this sounds pretty cool, I think some of those estimates might be optimistic. Maybe I am wrong. I hope you dyno this before and after so we can see some real world numbers.

Even if theyre optimistic, this definitely sounds worth it.
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Old 03-28-2009, 10:07 PM   #7
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I got dibs on 2nd ride.

Good luck Xanthos...why dont you play the lotto?
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Old 03-28-2009, 10:10 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by diV6 View Post
While this sounds pretty cool, I think some of those estimates might be optimistic. Maybe I am wrong. I hope you dyno this before and after so we can see some real world numbers.

Even if theyre optimistic, this definitely sounds worth it.
The only numbers that I didn't conservatively estimate were the ones with documented evidence/dyno testing. Refer to the links at the bottom of the post if you don't believe it.

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I got dibs on 2nd ride.

Good luck Xanthos...why dont you play the lotto?
I do, twice a week using the money I get from tips. Almost won 7 bucks tonight (heh!).
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Old 03-29-2009, 09:23 AM   #9
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overall, damn good plan.
buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut you forgot the most important part.....


TUNING.


a good tune can tweak everything and bump your numbers.


the only thing that I see you should change tho:

Quote:
I’m going to split the vacuum line for the MAP sensor to two additional places. The first will be a stage 2 methanol injection system (the injector will be installed in the final space right before the throttle body). Basically what this means is that once the engine reaches a certain RPM the methanol will spray into the air stream at a rate based on intake pressure, which will cool the air and increase the charge density.
where is the second vacuum line going to? I would imagine you plan on it going to the AFR. right?

tho you might have to tap and plumb a line for it cus it looks as tho the stock MAP sensor is right in the middle of the intake manifold.



as for the mehanol progressive controller, you can just splice into the electrical lines to get your MAP readings instead of splitting the vacuum tubing. I say this cus splitting the vacuum tubing could give you false readings as you are pulling a vacuum from 2 lengths of line instead of just 1.

and again back to tuning. the LLT is tuned for 87 octane. run 93 and a 50/50 mix of water/meth and you are effectively running about 114 octane while it is spraying. which will allow you to tune and get some very nice numbers.

but like I said. overall. nicely thought out plan. and remember some of the stuff you will be able to do yourself based on your personal mechanical abilities. other things... we can walk you thru...lol
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Old 03-29-2009, 09:42 AM   #10
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Sounds like a great plan, if you are stuck on a V6. Not being sarcastic, seriously, why would you not go for the SS if you are spending the same money?? I know you are tweeking it to your liking, but your ceiling will always be lower than a good V8. Just curious. And look I understand what you can get out of a small engine, my SKY Redline has the highest output per displacement of any stock car built in America. With a 0-60 in the low to mid 5's, I beat most Mustang GT's off the line.

I am planning to possibly do these mods (Still researching)
Once the warrantee is out:

I plan on a Head & Cam Swop:

"Comp Cams (www.compcams.com) now offers a pair of head/cam packages designed to boost the performance of the ever-popular GMPP ZZ4 crate engine. The Stage Four kit features Racing Head Service (RHS) 180cc as-cast heads with 2.02/1.60 valves, Comp 918 springs, 1.5-ratio Pro Magnum roller rockers, and a Comp camshaft with 283/303-degree duration and 0.513/0.498-inch lift. It produces an 83hp gain over the stock ZZ4. The Stage 5 kit uses an even hotter cam with 291/311-degree duration and 0.522/0.509-inch lift; it produces a 92hp gain over stock."


Then a Pro Charger:

"Want LS7-beating performance from your '08 C6 Vette? ProCharger's (www.procharger.com) new LS3 supercharger may be just for you. It features an intercooled centrifugal design that produces a 40 to 45 percent power gain at only 6 psi and comes with all the components needed for a quick and complete installation."

With a proper Tune I should be pushing over 600HP........still doing research on the drivetrain, so far it appears that the Tranny can handle 700lbs of torque. I am sure by the time I am ready there will be someone on here with real world experience.
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Old 03-29-2009, 12:39 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CamaroSpike23 View Post
overall, damn good plan.
buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut you forgot the most important part.....


TUNING.


a good tune can tweak everything and bump your numbers.


the only thing that I see you should change tho:


where is the second vacuum line going to? I would imagine you plan on it going to the AFR. right?

tho you might have to tap and plumb a line for it cus it looks as tho the stock MAP sensor is right in the middle of the intake manifold.



as for the mehanol progressive controller, you can just splice into the electrical lines to get your MAP readings instead of splitting the vacuum tubing. I say this cus splitting the vacuum tubing could give you false readings as you are pulling a vacuum from 2 lengths of line instead of just 1.

and again back to tuning. the LLT is tuned for 87 octane. run 93 and a 50/50 mix of water/meth and you are effectively running about 114 octane while it is spraying. which will allow you to tune and get some very nice numbers.

but like I said. overall. nicely thought out plan. and remember some of the stuff you will be able to do yourself based on your personal mechanical abilities. other things... we can walk you thru...lol
Well, nobody has been able to tune this engine yet. And the second vacuum line would be running to a rising rate FPR - set to raise fuel pressure by 2 psi for every 1 psi the intake gains towards atmospheric.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xmicro_SS View Post
Sounds like a great plan, if you are stuck on a V6. Not being sarcastic, seriously, why would you not go for the SS if you are spending the same money?? I know you are tweeking it to your liking, but your ceiling will always be lower than a good V8. Just curious. And look I understand what you can get out of a small engine, my SKY Redline has the highest output per displacement of any stock car built in America. With a 0-60 in the low to mid 5's, I beat most Mustang GT's off the line.

I am planning to possibly do these mods (Still researching)
Once the warrantee is out:

I plan on a Head & Cam Swop:

"Comp Cams (www.compcams.com) now offers a pair of head/cam packages designed to boost the performance of the ever-popular GMPP ZZ4 crate engine. The Stage Four kit features Racing Head Service (RHS) 180cc as-cast heads with 2.02/1.60 valves, Comp 918 springs, 1.5-ratio Pro Magnum roller rockers, and a Comp camshaft with 283/303-degree duration and 0.513/0.498-inch lift. It produces an 83hp gain over the stock ZZ4. The Stage 5 kit uses an even hotter cam with 291/311-degree duration and 0.522/0.509-inch lift; it produces a 92hp gain over stock."


Then a Pro Charger:

"Want LS7-beating performance from your '08 C6 Vette? ProCharger's (www.procharger.com) new LS3 supercharger may be just for you. It features an intercooled centrifugal design that produces a 40 to 45 percent power gain at only 6 psi and comes with all the components needed for a quick and complete installation."

With a proper Tune I should be pushing over 600HP........still doing research on the drivetrain, so far it appears that the Tranny can handle 700lbs of torque. I am sure by the time I am ready there will be someone on here with real world experience.
Because I don't care about the ceiling, I only want to reach my goal of about 400-425 horses. And, if you read through the whole plan, you'd see that I can do that with an LS for about 4000 dollars cheaper than buying an SS.
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Old 03-29-2009, 01:14 PM   #12
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With the money I/you/anyone would save by getting the V6 you could get a decent turbo setup and easily surpass a stock LS3......however there is always one thing you can never mod into your V6 car....the sound of a V8....i dont care what cam, exhaust, tune, headers...whatever...you slap on a v6, it will never sound as good as a V8 roar with a set of cut-outs or a nice cat-back

However, that being said, if thats ur goal...go for it!! it sounds like as aweosme project, and most of the time it is more satisfying to have a modded car with 400 hp, then a stock one with 400hp...the modded one has that custom feel to it...that and modding it is half the fun...

For me tho, i have done the modded V6 thing with my Pontiac Grand Prix, i love my 3.8L, and it sounds great...but im getting the V8 in the camaro, if only for the sound!
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Old 03-29-2009, 01:34 PM   #13
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Here's some vids of the exhaust setup I'm going for. This is on a 3.8 V6. He has headers but I'm not sure if they're shorty headers or long tubes.





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Old 03-31-2009, 01:42 PM   #14
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Looks like you certainly have a plan. BUT Im really questioning if your going to be able to hit your HP marks.

On a FULL exhaust (heads back) I dont think you'll ever see more than 40WHP. Especially from an already highly developing engine.

Intake, sure 15whp assuming your not maxing out your injectors already. Im suprized you didnt say anything about a larger throttle body. With all this air exiting your going to want more air going into the engine (even more than just an intake).

Now you say you want to do water injection. Realize that without increased timing your only talking a couple of hp. To really make use of this system you want to put the water injection to run on WOT say above 3krpms and you'll want to increase your timing to the point of registering that the system is pulling timing due to knocking. This is the same thing as running 100 octane. Doing this properly figure about 15hp gain or so.
This assumes you have the ability to adjust timing, IMHO I think you should figure for getting a custom tune by whatever tune shop has the ability to crack the ecu. And were also assuming you have not maxed out your factory injectors or fuel pump. Which when nearing close to 100whp more than factory marks, I think its certainly a possibility that you need to entertain.



Personally, Im going to do mufflers, or maybe a cat back depending on how I feel. an intake (I'll make it look as stock as possible), whatever tune comes out; and if I still feel like its a slow dog, I'll to a 75 shot fogger system. Hide all the lines and the bottle so whomever looks under or in the car will think its stock.
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Old 03-31-2009, 02:04 PM   #15
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Good luck man. I'll be following this project quite closely. Just don't get your hopes too high.
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Old 03-31-2009, 02:49 PM   #16
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Looks like you certainly have a plan. BUT Im really questioning if your going to be able to hit your HP marks.

On a FULL exhaust (heads back) I dont think you'll ever see more than 40WHP. Especially from an already highly developing engine.

Intake, sure 15whp assuming your not maxing out your injectors already. Im suprized you didnt say anything about a larger throttle body. With all this air exiting your going to want more air going into the engine (even more than just an intake).

Now you say you want to do water injection. Realize that without increased timing your only talking a couple of hp. To really make use of this system you want to put the water injection to run on WOT say above 3krpms and you'll want to increase your timing to the point of registering that the system is pulling timing due to knocking. This is the same thing as running 100 octane. Doing this properly figure about 15hp gain or so.
This assumes you have the ability to adjust timing, IMHO I think you should figure for getting a custom tune by whatever tune shop has the ability to crack the ecu. And were also assuming you have not maxed out your factory injectors or fuel pump. Which when nearing close to 100whp more than factory marks, I think its certainly a possibility that you need to entertain.



Personally, Im going to do mufflers, or maybe a cat back depending on how I feel. an intake (I'll make it look as stock as possible), whatever tune comes out; and if I still feel like its a slow dog, I'll to a 75 shot fogger system. Hide all the lines and the bottle so whomever looks under or in the car will think its stock.
All I have to say is...

Read the works cited. Everything is documented there. Along with dyno charts.
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Old 03-31-2009, 03:13 PM   #17
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Dyno charts show everything piece by piece. Putting them all together doesnt yeild you with the same results.

Doing mod A plus mod B doesnt equal A+B in terms of power. A+B=C...

The weak link on the full exhaust dyno was that it needed to be opened up a little. Opening up the exaust more and more will not give you a continuous positive result.

Your going to find that once you find the couple of week links in the engine your going to run into a hurdle to get over certain power goals.



How long have you been building cars? How many cars have you had a hand in modifying and dynoing?

Im just saying not to be discouraged once you get to the dyno and realize that when your looking for 360whp that you only hit 330whp.



PS: you shouldnt say fwhp (which means front wheel horse power) you should say whp or rwhp (rear whp)


BTW how old are you?
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Old 03-31-2009, 04:29 PM   #18
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Very doable. GM has said that the 3.6 is good for 370 factory hp. Who knows what that involves but I am sure its nothing too drastic from the current set-up.
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Old 04-01-2009, 12:16 AM   #19
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Dyno charts show everything piece by piece. Putting them all together doesnt yeild you with the same results.

Doing mod A plus mod B doesnt equal A+B in terms of power. A+B=C...

The weak link on the full exhaust dyno was that it needed to be opened up a little. Opening up the exaust more and more will not give you a continuous positive result.

Your going to find that once you find the couple of week links in the engine your going to run into a hurdle to get over certain power goals.



How long have you been building cars? How many cars have you had a hand in modifying and dynoing?

Im just saying not to be discouraged once you get to the dyno and realize that when your looking for 360whp that you only hit 330whp.



PS: you shouldnt say fwhp (which means front wheel horse power) you should say whp or rwhp (rear whp)


BTW how old are you?
I'll be 21 in July. And I was saying fwhp and rwhp seperately to differentiate between flywheel horsepower and rear wheel horsepower.
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Old 04-01-2009, 12:32 AM   #20
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CHP is typically what is used for crank horsepower. FWHP can be determined as front wheel or flywheel and can be very misleading when talking on a forum.



Oh and super were not talking about a mere 65hp increase. Were talking about a whole 120hp increase.



Without an increase in compression, displacement or other internal modifications, or radical change in timing I dont believe that getting above 370~ crank HP is going to be doable by the general public. (This excludes forced induction).
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Old 04-01-2009, 01:05 AM   #21
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CHP is typically what is used for crank horsepower. FWHP can be determined as front wheel or flywheel and can be very misleading when talking on a forum.



Oh and super were not talking about a mere 65hp increase. Were talking about a whole 120hp increase.



Without an increase in compression, displacement or other internal modifications, or radical change in timing I dont believe that getting above 370~ crank HP is going to be doable by the general public. (This excludes forced induction).
Actually, we're only talking about 96 chp. But as for not being doable by the general public - we'll just have to see once the cars hit the road. If I turn out to be wrong, I'll eat my words. I don't think I will be, though.

Why did you ask my age, anyway?
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Old 04-01-2009, 11:41 AM   #22
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I was curious. I've seen a lot of teens and young boys talk about doing mods and say "this was proven for this much this was proven for this much, add it all together and I should be at X hp. When they finally get to proving it, its about 1/2 the increase they had calculated.

I see it all the time...
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Old 04-01-2009, 11:55 AM   #23
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i doubt you'll get much at all from replacing the cats. On my supercharged cobra, the typical gain is 5-7 rwhp or so going from the stock 4 cat pipe to an off road x pipe. And 20 rwhp is very optimistic for the long tubes... Maybe on an LT1 with what looked like crush bent exhaust manifolds. It's probably closer to 10-12 rwhp.

Last edited by THE EVIL TW1N; 04-01-2009 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 04-01-2009, 11:08 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by andyrew View Post

Personally, Im going to do mufflers, or maybe a cat back depending on how I feel. an intake (I'll make it look as stock as possible), whatever tune comes out; and if I still feel like its a slow dog, I'll to a 75 shot fogger system. Hide all the lines and the bottle so whomever looks under or in the car will think its stock.
yeah it will look stock until that mustang looks over and see's you hitting that purge and all you see next is
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Old 04-02-2009, 02:36 PM   #25
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yeah it will look stock until that mustang looks over and see's you hitting that purge and all you see next is
ya, because if he raced another Camaro that didn't have nitrous, it will still be a tie
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