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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

View Poll Results: What's YOUR Ideal "Racy" Camaro?
Make Mine a $50's-K LSA/MR ZL1 14 21.21%
Make Mine a Mid-$40sK LS7/Enhanced FE4 "Z/28" 52 78.79%
Voters: 66. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-12-2011, 01:30 PM   #1
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Thumbs up What's YOUR Ideal "Racy" Camaro?

Although this particular Section has been "Z/28"-specific, and not inclined to be overly supportive of the pending ZL1 as "our" notion of the "ideal racy Camaro", I'm curious as to whether any of our frequent readers or contributors have now "fallen under the spell" of the ZL1. I mean, 580 hp/556 ft-lb is pretty compelling, and MR means it'll be a strip-king/roadcourse renegade/garage queen extraordinaire, right?

But, is it what YOU seek, as opposed to the "old school" LS7/"enhanced" FE4/BIG-brake beastie?

1) Make mine a $50s-K LSA/MR ZL1, as known

2) Make mine a mid-$40s LS7/FE4 Z/28, as described
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Old 09-12-2011, 02:16 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
Although this particular Section has been "Z/28"-specific, and not inclined to be overly supportive of the pending ZL1 as "our" notion of the "ideal racy Camaro", I'm curious as to whether any of our frequent readers or contributors have now "fallen under the spell" of the ZL1. I mean, 580 hp/556 ft-lb is pretty compelling, and MR means it'll be a strip-king/roadcourse renegade/garage queen extraordinaire, right?

But, is it what YOU seek, as opposed to the "old school" LS7/"enhanced" FE4/BIG-brake beastie?

2) Make mine a mid-$40s LS7/FE4 Z/28, as described
Leaving out all the ZL1's weight and technology and using an LS7 would be ideal. It would still bring the weight to about 3940lbs however, it would give the Z28 a power to weight ratio of 7.80 which is higher than the Boss 302. Chevrolet is quick to tout the ZL1's track ready set up but they fail to inform those wishing to buy the ZL1 that MRC is illegal in every road racing circuit. Track ready? sure, Competition Ready? Never in a million years. You will never see the behemoth ZL1 and GT500 lap times from lap #2, it will only be a single lap race because that is all superchargers are really good for. I wouldn't have went with a staggered set of 20 inch wheels on a "Track Ready" car or run a supercharger/traditional automatic. These things just are not "Track Ready" equipment, Magnetic Ride Control is not competition ready and there is no need to offer this on the Z28. Having a car that can run on a track is different than a car that can race on a track... I would leave all of the above out of the Z28 which would give it a better power to weight ratio than the current Boss 302.

Among overall race weight, power to weight ratio is a very close second in competition. the ZL1's 4200lbs or 7.24pwr will eventually be overcome by a LS7 equipped Z28 at 3940lbs or 7.80pwr just on weight and PWR alone not to mention the superchargers eventual heat soak. 7.24 and 7.80 is pretty close for an N/A vs. SC race and eventually, the ZL1 will get tired. Compare the ZR1 to the Z06, the lap times are almost identical at every track, however, overall performance after the first initial lap is greatly affected by the larger 2300 liter unit the ZR1 uses (over the ZL1's 1900). After a single lap at Nurburgring, the ZR1 requires a 30 minute cool down before attempting lap #2. The Z06 on the other hand, can knock out laps back to back, all day, every day, no problem... Even still, the Z06 is only 4-5 seconds behind the ZR1 after the first lap (officially 3 seconds). This is because the ZR1 already starts to show wear from the supercharger even before lap 1 is done.

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Old 09-12-2011, 02:32 PM   #3
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I picked the LS7 option, but I doubt a camaro of that nature with that engine could start at 45k.
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Old 09-12-2011, 03:00 PM   #4
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This one:

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Old 09-12-2011, 03:03 PM   #5
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Obviously this poll is going to be quite one-sided as it's posted in the 'hopefuls' section. I voted Z28 for one reason: I can't afford a mid-50s car...
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Old 09-12-2011, 04:26 PM   #6
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^That's one of my reasons as well. When the ZL1 price is made public a mid $40's Z28 will gain a lot of ZL1 defectors. Don't get me wrong the ZL1 is AWESOME, however it is TOO expensive and just TOO much. Another good comparo is the that the ZR1 is also AWESOME, but even if I could afford it I'd still buy the Z06.
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Old 09-12-2011, 04:51 PM   #7
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Obviously this poll is going to be quite one-sided as it's posted in the 'hopefuls' section. I voted Z28 for one reason: I can't afford a mid-50s car...
As mentioned in the preamble, I'm just curious if there will be "movement" in peoples' minds...

One thing missing from the ZL1 "data"? The PRICE...

One thing missing for the Z/28? The CAR...for now...
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Old 09-16-2011, 06:47 PM   #8
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As mentioned in the preamble, I'm just curious if there will be "movement" in peoples' minds...

One thing missing from the ZL1 "data"? The PRICE...

One thing missing for the Z/28? The CAR...for now...
...oh, my minds moving alright, like a pendullum. Z28 is the face of Camaro... From the age of 17 it's me, and it is I....this is gonna be tough.
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Old 09-16-2011, 07:32 PM   #9
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I voted for the ZL1. Don't get me wrong, the basics of the Z28 sound good. But more power is more better , and for 45k, you are not going to get the extreme lightening that the Z06 underwent. I also wonder if the Z06, minus the dry sump is going to be making 505HP. As an example, the LS3 with the dry sump is said to actually rate closer to 440 than 430in the GS. Lastly, by all accounts 2013 is the last year for the C6, although not confirmed, the gen V SBC's are supposed to debut with the C7. If that is the case, the LS7 will go the way of the Dodo within a model year ( based on previous GM powertrain decisions/practices). So maybe, instead of the LS7, a potential Z28 will get a NA DI 6.2 (or whatever CID the Gen V SBC comes out in). That is my take, but I hope I am wrong and the Z28 contingent gets what they want!
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Old 09-16-2011, 10:02 PM   #10
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No need to hope IMO.
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Old 09-16-2011, 10:12 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
As mentioned in the preamble, I'm just curious if there will be "movement" in peoples' minds...

One thing missing from the ZL1 "data"? The PRICE...

One thing missing for the Z/28? The CAR...for now...
My mind is pretty much here.

The ZL1 would be great - but it has more than is necessary for a 'Racy' car. I'm sure it'll be entirely competent in a track setting, but it doesn't need suede, it doesn't *need* MR, a supercharger, etc....

So, it's not ideal - per the thread's title - because it's overqualified.

A Z28, as we've all discussed, would be the ideal 'Racy' car, imo. Because it'd be focused.
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Old 09-17-2011, 12:37 PM   #12
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"Perception IS Truth", goes the saying...and "focused" it would be, in truth.

Focused to a specific price point, to a specific market, and worthy of the "mystic" name. Or, as I call it, "i-car-nic"...Z/28!

LS3, with Corvette's Dual Mode exhaust, is rated 436 hp. Theoretically, without the possible windage issue of a "sloshing" wet-sump engine, a dry-sump might make a wee bit more power...but complexity and the added weight and packaging issues of the wet-sump tank in a Gen-5 chassis negate its use, here. A wet-sump LS7 kit is an available GMPP retrofit, BTW. The LSA in the ZL1 will be "wet" as well.

Some of the early LS9 conversions, as dry-sump, in Gen-5s featured the tank in front of the lower rad support/radiator. Try crash-testing that set-up...and not very good for weight distribution, either...

Last edited by LOWDOWN; 09-26-2011 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 09-17-2011, 01:01 PM   #13
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Old 09-24-2011, 08:49 PM   #14
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Old 09-25-2011, 11:46 PM   #15
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Voted LS7. I think the Z/28 should make it's power without a supercharger.
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Old 10-16-2011, 05:43 PM   #16
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Voted LS7. I think the Z/28 should make it's power without a supercharger.
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Old 10-16-2011, 07:01 PM   #17
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Thumbs up

I know I am in the minority here, when it comes to what I want as a "racy" emblem, icon, "i-car-nic" or whatever you want to call it (garage queen?). But, if I had to choose between a Corvette ZR1 or a Z06/7, I'd "choose" the ZR1. In the Camaro case, I choose the ZL1. At this time in GM/Chevrolet history, in this time of uncertainty over where our automotive industry is headed, in this time in MY life cycle, the Camaro ZL1 removes all doubt about whether or not I have participated in a RARE piece of history and been given the opportunity to own it in my very own driveway and garage, while I still have the health to enjoy it and share that joy. No, it is not a Z28, the most well known icon in Camaro history. But it IS the pinnacle of Camaro history/heritage as those who have created it will attest.

And that's good enough for me.

I understand the purist in all who want a Z28. I, too, wanted it ever so badly in the lead up to the ZL1. I was confused when ZL1 was announced, and at my age (60+)that's hard to do to me. I had to research "ZL1" to find out why that meant more than "COPO"; But it didn't take long to find out what was happening, why it was happening, and how those in the design and development did it while the getting was good! Thanks GM. I hope the next few weeks my dream comes true.

Let's hope the Z28 does come out soon. Something tells me it is going to be about as much car as the ZL1; So ALL will be happy regardless of which one you get.

The talk of "heat soak", "normally aspirated", "dry sump", "MR", etc etc are great issues. But no matter which one you choose, you will be a winner!
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Old 10-16-2011, 07:14 PM   #18
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I'd rather see an engine that is what the LS6 was to the LS1 but using the LS3 as the base instead of LS1. Basically a hotter cam and a few other upgrades. Something like 460HP.

Most of the upgrade should be suspension. With basically an LS3 with a hotter cam, it shouldn't cost much if any more to build than the regular LS3, the cost of the Z/28 over the SS would be kept down.
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Old 10-16-2011, 09:21 PM   #19
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High revving N/A engine, excellent suspension and brakes. Leave the MR suspension to the ZL1. Make a Z/28 package that is worthy of it's early heritage.
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Old 10-16-2011, 09:28 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by htron50 View Post
I know I am in the minority here, when it comes to what I want as a "racy" emblem, icon, "i-car-nic" or whatever you want to call it (garage queen?). But, if I had to choose between a Corvette ZR1 or a Z06/7, I'd "choose" the ZR1. In the Camaro case, I choose the ZL1. At this time in GM/Chevrolet history, in this time of uncertainty over where our automotive industry is headed, in this time in MY life cycle, the Camaro ZL1 removes all doubt about whether or not I have participated in a RARE piece of history and been given the opportunity to own it in my very own driveway and garage, while I still have the health to enjoy it and share that joy. No, it is not a Z28, the most well known icon in Camaro history. But it IS the pinnacle of Camaro history/heritage as those who have created it will attest.

And that's good enough for me.

I understand the purist in all who want a Z28. I, too, wanted it ever so badly in the lead up to the ZL1. I was confused when ZL1 was announced, and at my age (60+)that's hard to do to me. I had to research "ZL1" to find out why that meant more than "COPO"; But it didn't take long to find out what was happening, why it was happening, and how those in the design and development did it while the getting was good! Thanks GM. I hope the next few weeks my dream comes true.

Let's hope the Z28 does come out soon. Something tells me it is going to be about as much car as the ZL1; So ALL will be happy regardless of which one you get.

The talk of "heat soak", "normally aspirated", "dry sump", "MR", etc etc are great issues. But no matter which one you choose, you will be a winner!
Good summation! The bottom line is, both the ZL1 and a Z/28 are Camaros with a huge heritage, either choice will be the right one as long as it fits YOUR wants and needs. BTW, love that '67 Goat in your avatar. A good friend of mine back in the day had a new '67 GTO with three deuces and 4 speed, fun car that I rode in a lot.
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Old 10-16-2011, 09:34 PM   #21
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High revving N/A engine, excellent suspension and brakes. Leave the MR suspension to the ZL1. Make a Z/28 package that is worthy of it's early heritage.
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Old 10-16-2011, 09:53 PM   #22
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I'd rather see an engine that is what the LS6 was to the LS1 but using the LS3 as the base instead of LS1. Basically a hotter cam and a few other upgrades. Something like 460HP.

Most of the upgrade should be suspension. With basically an LS3 with a hotter cam, it shouldn't cost much if any more to build than the regular LS3, the cost of the Z/28 over the SS would be kept down.
And therein lies my personal fear...the beancounters win...AGAIN!


Mark my words: If a Zee, as described here, could be built without spending much/any over an SS, you can bet your bippy it'll MSRP for BOSS money or more...without BOSS talent/ability...and be another $ellout in the name of profits.

Or, in fact, is this the "New GM", where the name won't be bastardized in the name of profits, and a ZEE (all caps) will BUST the BOSS-bronco?!

Don't let us down, Team!!!
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Old 10-17-2011, 12:03 AM   #23
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And therein lies my personal fear...the beancounters win...AGAIN!


Mark my words: If a Zee, as described here, could be built without spending much/any over an SS, you can bet your bippy it'll MSRP for BOSS money or more...without BOSS talent/ability...and be another $ellout in the name of profits.

Or, in fact, is this the "New GM", where the name won't be bastardized in the name of profits, and a ZEE (all caps) will BUST the BOSS-bronco?!

Don't let us down, Team!!!
What is "BOSS talent/ability"?

The car I described sounds like what the BOSS is to the GT.

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Ford revived the Boss 302 nameplate for 2012. The 2012 Ford Mustang Boss 302 takes a standard 2011 Ford Mustang GT’s 5.0-liter V8 and adds an upgraded intake system and revised engine producing 444 naturally aspirated horsepower – a 32 horsepower jump over the standard GT’s 412 hp via a forged rotating assembly, CNC ported heads, revised camshafts and a high flow "runners in the box" intake taken from the 302R racecar.[10] The engine generates 380 lb-ft. of torque and comes with an upgraded six-speed MT-82 manual transmission. A 3.73 rear axle uses carbon fiber plates in its limited slip differential or an optional Torsen differential. The intake system has also been reengineered to provide a growl under hard acceleration, while the quad exhaust system made up of two standard Mustang GT outlets and two side pipes that exit on either side of the rear crossover. The side pipes send the exhaust through a set of metal discs to create an extra growling exhaust sound. The disc is removable and includes a spacer plate sized to match aftermarket exhaust dump valves.
The Boss 302 takes the Mustang GT’s suspension and adds higher-rate coil springs, stiffer bushings, and a larger diameter rear stabilizer bar. The body is lowered 11 mm up front and just 1 mm in the rear to give it a more raked stance designed to recall the original. The shocks are adjustable at the shock tower by using a flat head screwdriver. The standard Mustang traction and stability control programs have been altered with a new intermediate sport mode designed to allow for more flexibility on the track.
The aero package is almost entirely copied from the Boss 302R race car. The 19-inch black-alloy racing wheels are 9-inches wide up front and 9.5-inches out back and come within Pirelli P-Zero tires.
So the engine is basically a GT with ported heads, different intake and cam, and then they changed the exhaust, not sure if that adds more power though.

The rest is cosmetic and suspension.

What's the difference between the BOSS engine and an LS3 with the same upgrades going in a Z/28?
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Old 10-17-2011, 09:30 AM   #24
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Drive a GT...drive a BOSS... The comparison is as stark as an SS 350 vs. a Gen-1 Z/28. Sometimes the result is greater than the sum of the parts...and the BOSS result is dramatically different than a GT. A LOT of time and attention went into its development, and its road course times are significantly superior to the GT...as is the overall "feel" of the car. Have you driven either/both? Better start there...

As to spending development buck$ on a late-Gen LS for this one-time-only Gen-5 ZEE, the "prediction" seems to be centered on utilizing a current, on-the-shelf-and-ready-to-go engine...and in a 200+ lb. heavier chassis than the 444 hp BOSS, the way to get there quickly is with the LS7 with 500+ hp... The GMPP "hot LS3" is NOT a production-ready engine..."off-road only".

At a 480 hp rating (and less torque than an LS7), the hot LS3, AT BEST, might MATCH the BOSS, not stomp it...and that depends on suspension/brakes/tires/final Curb Weight, as well. With 500+ from an LS7...WOW!

Think of it as the difference between a Vette with the GS Package...and a Z06...only this time, the competitors aren't in-house!
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Old 10-17-2011, 06:32 PM   #25
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The LS7 is stupid expensive though. I bet it costs as much as the LSA.
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