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Old 09-12-2011, 03:41 PM   #1
Arachnyd
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ZL1 vs Corvette- Why do people insist this doesnt exist? Impacts on pricing/perf?

I keep reading in the forums people just stating as fact that the 2013 vette won't effect the ZL1 and vice versus because no one that wants one is in the market for the other.

I dont understand this one bit. I for one am definitely deciding between the ZL1 and the corvette, and I've talked to a few others in the same boat. I guess I just don't understand how their markets DONT overlap? Right now the GT500 to corvette is a discussed comparison...

I'm even a marketer AND I teach college classes in marketing... Seems to me you have multiple marketing segments each targets, and for several of them, the Corvette and ZL1 overlap completely, and buyers will decide between the two of them.

the price for the ZL1 is likely to be over that of the base corvette, which would cause intense cannibalization... that is UNLESS GM has something crazy in store with the 2013 vette (like maybe a much higher base sticker, or Dropping the base corvette power to be more in line with its likely kappa influences.

In other words, the development of the ZL1 HAS to be influencing the development of the C7 corvette and vice versa, as a decent percentage of buyers WILL compare the ZL1 to the corvette in their buying decisions. If a C7 corvette, with a lower price tag, outperforms the ZL1, that will slaughter ZL1 sales, while devaluing the ZL1 project too much to make it worthwhile to even do. If the ZL1 is cheaper, but outperforms the C7 corvette with a higher price tag, which I initially saw as the as the most likely scenario, what does that do for the brand image of the corvette? This seems problemmatic.

The last conclusion would be that the ZL1 is cheaper than most people are speculating (Say base $49,525 with most coming out in the low to mid 50s with options), and with the corvette base coming in at around $53,810 (while GM will plan on escalating this price QUICKLY year after year in the future so that the C8 corvette is truly supercar status and pricing). At the same time, having the ZL1 vs. base corvette being an object of argument (ZL1 outperforming base vette in some areas, like power, base vette out performing ZL1 in others, like weight). This would preserve the corvettes flagship status, and makes sense when you consider the entire chevrolet porfolio.

The only final option is see is that GM's VP marketing, Joel Ewanick, is clueless about marketing, which I dont believe one bit. He's been with Nissan and before that Hyundai. He was at Hyundai during the development and marketing of the Genesis, showing he understands and values the idea of a performance flagship, and worked on positionings between the 370z and the GT-R at nissan, which don't even come CLOSE to overlapping buyer segments.

I think they need to break the GT500 vs corvette comparisons, so that the corvette can be compared to real "supercars". They want the corvette to compete internationally with the likes of european supercars. To do that, they need to elevate the product in the minds of the consumer to a similar status. I believe they are going to use the ZL-1 as a marketing tool for the corvette, breaking the GT500 vs corvette comparisons (make them GT500 vs ZL1), and then be able to increase the pricing of the corvette over time to become a true supercar competitor. They have to do this while not cannibalizing the corvette brand, which is why I think the 2012 ZL1 and the C7 corvette are anticipated within one year of eachother. Please note that in marketing, it does not matter what a product is. What matters is simply what people THINK it is. Therefore even if the corvette DOES compete with the international supercars on performance, it doesnt in the eye of the consumer, so using the ZL1 to separate the Corvette and build this new brand image is essential. GM has already stated that is their long term goal with the corvette.

The only problem in year 1 is that the 2012 vette is already slated at 49,5. The hype over the 2012 ZL1 buyers with a mid-year introduction will mean that 2012 camaro will predominately be purchased by people who are not in the market for a vette (true camaro fans, specific class racers, etc.). By the time this wears off, and the prices revisit MSRP, then the corvettes going to have to be more expensive than the ZL1, which should happen right when the C7 comes out. While a price jump of 5-7k IS possible, I find it hard to believe the ZL1 could possibly be priced more than 53k, because the vette can't be priced more than 57k in its intro year. I think thats even a stretch, so I'm sticking with my 50-52k for camaro, 55k for C7 base. and some minor cannibolization early on.

I dont mean this to be ANOTHER discussion on pricing, but rather a simple argument as to why the relationship between the ZL1 and the Corvette matters, and to try to garnish an argument from someone who says the markets don't overlap to explain to me why not, as from my perspective, GM is going to walk a fine line between the Camaro and the Corvette, and I am unable to understand how and why so many people on these forums are quick to state that there is not going to be inner-brand competition between them, and doubting very strategic marketing decisions made in the pricing and product offerings between them?
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Old 09-12-2011, 04:18 PM   #2
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Just because pricing between certain trim levels of the Camaro and Corvette may be somewhat close, if doesn't necessarily follow that there will be a lot a cross shopping between to the two models. One would have to have detailed marketing survey data regarding the Camaro and Corvette to really know how much overlap or cross shopping there is between the two models.

For me the Corvette and Camaro have always served two separate and distinct applications. I see the Corvette as a two seat sports car, and the Camaro as a muscle/pony car. I currently own 2 of each and use them for different purposes.

No matter how hard one tries, one can't fit four people into a Corvette. For most people I think a Corvette is likely to be a second vehicle due to its limited passenger and storage capability, whereas, the Camaro is much more likely to be used as one's only vehicle.

The Corvette has a much more limited market than the Camaro does, as sales indicate, as there were only just over 12,000 2010 Corvettes sold and there were over 80,000 Camaros sold in 2010.

There may be some cross shopping between the Corvette and the Camaro. I, however, have not seen any real statistical evidence that supports much of it.
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Old 09-12-2011, 04:30 PM   #3
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Because most corvette guys wouldn't be cought dead in a Camaro.....

Sad. But probably true
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Old 09-12-2011, 04:32 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by GoldenBear View Post
Just because pricing between certain trim levels of the Camaro and Corvette may be somewhat close, if doesn't necessarily follow that there will be a lot a cross shopping between to the two models. One would have to have detailed marketing survey data regarding the Camaro and Corvette to really know how much overlap or cross shopping there is between the two models.
This forum probably isn't statistically significant, so this is anectodal evidence to the contrary, but there have been quite a few people on here that either got rid of a Corvette to get the Camaro, or got the Camaro, then got rid of it for a Corvette.

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For most people I think a Corvette is likely to be a second vehicle due to its limited passenger and storage capability, whereas, the Camaro is much more likely to be used as one's only vehicle.
Many of the SS owners I know use the Camaro as a second vehicle. I would guess the percentage of ZL1 owners would be even higher.
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Old 09-12-2011, 04:48 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by GoldenBear View Post
The Corvette has a much more limited market than the Camaro does, as sales indicate, as there were only just over 12,000 2010 Corvettes sold and there were over 80,000 Camaros sold in 2010.

There may be some cross shopping between the Corvette and the Camaro. I, however, have not seen any real statistical evidence that supports much of it.
I would agree with this argument with the Camaro vs. Corvette, but like the GT500 (which is based on the mustang), I anticipate the ZL1 being treated as a separate model... not a trim package. It is probably fair to assume ZL1 buyers to the camaro will be similar to GT500 buyers to the mustang. I would anticipate that the assumptions for most camaros wouldnt apply to the ZL1. Most owners probably will own multiple vehicles, will not use the ZL1 as a DD, and I've seen statistical data that shows buyers of the GT500 compare it to the corvette, so I would anticipate that would have to carry over to the ZL1. This is of course mostly my assumptions and understandings, and cannot be represented yet as fact.


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Because most corvette guys wouldn't be cought dead in a Camaro.....

Sad. But probably true
Possibly true, except that the traditional corvette buyers are retiring and dying, and GM has specifically said its goals for the new corvette are YOUNGER buyers and INTERNATIONAL buyers. Your assumption that most corvette guys wouldnt drive a camaro would be assuming traditional buyers, not the new buying targets.
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Old 09-12-2011, 05:36 PM   #6
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I'll use myself as an example. I think you have to look at more than performance. I'm looking at the ZL1, which is the top dog of factory Camaros. It comes fully loaded for $50-$60k. I would and have considered a Corvette. For $50-$60k I basically get a stripped down Grand Sport at best. I'm not really interested in one of the lowest spec Corvettes even if it performs the same. If I get a Vette, I want a Z06 at a minimum with some nice interior options and preferably the Z07 and CFZ packages. Now we are talking $90k - no longer the same price range. I guess it is just a mentallity - do you wan to pay 60k for cloth and sparse options or leather and all the options? The base Vette just doesn't appeal to me for reasons other than performance - it seems like less of a car even if it performs better.

Like others have said - many Corvette snobs wouldn't buy a Camaro even if it was better and to afford a Corvette instead of the ZL1 you give up a lot. People we know who are willing to go either way for a 60k ZL1 or a 60k Vette are rare I think and cause a false sense of the real market. That's my opinion anyway, and the above paragraph represents my reasoning.

Adding used cars complicates the scenario, but are you willing to buy a 60k used Corvette to get what you want or a 60k new Camaro? Now you get the same features but one car is used.

For me, these two cars arent in the same price range for these reasons even if performance is similar.
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Old 09-12-2011, 05:52 PM   #7
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Like others have said - many Corvette snobs wouldn't buy a Camaro even if it was better and to afford a Corvette instead of the ZL1 you give up a lot. People we know who are willing to go either way for a 60k ZL1 or a 60k Vette are rare I think and cause a false sense of the real market. That's my opinion anyway, and the above paragraph represents my reasoning.
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Because most corvette guys wouldn't be cought dead in a Camaro.....

Sad. But probably true
Hey, Hey now we are not all snobs now.

I'm a Corvette owner and I can’t wait for the arrival of this Camaro. I could be in the very small minority on this as a Corvette owner though.

I plan on buying one and would be happy to be seen in this vehicle.

You are correct though there are many snobs out there. The reverse statement could be made for Camaro folks that would never be seen in a Corvette either.

To me it’s a muscle car and I want to own it and drive it. My wife has been none stop on this car. The sooner I get this Camaro the less pressure I will be under from the spouse
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Old 09-12-2011, 06:46 PM   #8
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The thing I forgot to add is that were it not for the ZL1 I wouldnt be buying a Camaro right now - it is special and affordable enough for me to justify adding another car to my collection. So GM has gained a customer in me because the ZL1 has grabbed a hold of me and won't let go - although I was a 5th gen fan before this I wouldn't be buying an SS at this time and I still wouldn't be buying a Corvette. So for this customer GM has filled a void instead of overlapping two markets.
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Old 09-12-2011, 06:48 PM   #9
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2 different markets OP, is the CTS-V coupe cannibalising vette sales? Nope..
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Old 09-12-2011, 06:56 PM   #10
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I too am a Corvette owner. The two cars are totally different will also be used to go to different places. For me, my 67 Vette represents a car that I wanted since I was a kid and the ZL1 will be my first Camaro. I will be less selective on where I drive the ZL1 compared to where I drive the Vette. The two cars will get me from point A to point B but I would much rather take a long drive in the Z than the Vette. For some people there might be some decision making between a GS Corvette and a ZL1, but for me I would rather have the ZL1 more than a GS or Z06. But it would be a much harder decision between an a ZL1 and a ZR1. But with a $60,000 difference I am not too worried about having to make that choice.
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Old 09-12-2011, 06:59 PM   #11
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Having never driven a ZL1, but I have driven Corvettes, and new Camaro SS's it's very difficult to attempt a comparison between these two vehicles. Driving each of these vehicles is like night and day. Anytime I drive a "stock" Corvette (any model), I feel like I just returned from a trip from the moon in a rocket. When I drive a stock SS I feel like I "could be" the king of the road someday after I change a whole bunch of things.
However, depnding on what the ZL1 brings to the table that "could" change or it could be just a Camaro SS with a few better components from the parts bin and a supercharger re-branded a ZL1.
I think we have to wait and see if the ZL1 meets expectation, if it does it may gain respect in the muscle / sports / racecar arena, if not it will always be just a Camaro ponycar (albeit a very cool looking car) and Corvette will always be the real deal king of the road don't mess with me, racecar rocket ship.

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Old 09-12-2011, 08:12 PM   #12
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Because most corvette guys wouldn't be cought dead in a Camaro.....

Sad. But probably true
Not always true -- I drove a 2010 Camaro SS before I got my Corvette. Frankly, if I had more than one parking space at my condo I'd have kept both.

My only choice was sell or street and there's no way I'd insult either car by parking her on the street :(
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Old 09-12-2011, 08:22 PM   #13
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Preppy business man = CTSV
Single guy and no kids or guy with kids finally out of house = corvette
Single or married guy with kids and likes jeans = ZL1
They have done the marketing and for the most part they are completly three different customers. They all like speed, just have different life styles. Myself, I'm single with kids and could have anyone one of the three, but I like jeans and a T shirt, so I pick ZL1. Just my view.
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Old 09-12-2011, 08:29 PM   #14
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GM has said that the Camaro has not cannibalized Corvette sales. The two cars, as-is are in VERY different segments. Once being a 2-seat sports car...the other a 2+2 sporty coupe.

More specifically on price, once you begin to add some comparable options as our ZL1, the 49.5k Corvette quickly becomes a 58-60k dollar car...If not more....

And if the rumors are true - the Corvette is going to become a true super car...a small-size, high-revving screamer. That sets it even further apart from a versatile 2+2 pony car.


That's my .02. Everyone can think what they like, though - because it doesn't really matter....Chevy will do (with regards to price) what they determine best.
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Old 09-12-2011, 08:49 PM   #15
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Not always true -- I drove a 2010 Camaro SS before I got my Corvette. Frankly, if I had more than one parking space at my condo I'd have kept both.

My only choice was sell or street and there's no way I'd insult either car by parking her on the street :(
I know, but go check out corvette forums:(. I aso know many that have switched,... you know the cool ones

I love both cars. You guys on here of course love em' both too.

Nothing wrong with that just they dont even consider the Camaro when buying. I have always said, two different cars for many reasons...
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Old 09-12-2011, 08:51 PM   #16
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Comparing a vehicle on basis of price is crazy anyway. A fully loaded Escalade or CTSV will cost you as much or more than a Corvette, but nobody mentions those as competitors. Why? Because they are not. No more than a 4-seat pony car and a two-seat sports car should be compared.
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Old 09-12-2011, 08:51 PM   #17
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Preppy business man = CTSVSingle guy and no kids or guy with kids finally out of house = corvette
Single or married guy with kids and likes jeans = ZL1
They have done the marketing and for the most part they are completly three different customers. They all like speed, just have different life styles. Myself, I'm single with kids and could have anyone one of the three, but I like jeans and a T shirt, so I pick ZL1. Just my view.


There are always exceptions of course............
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Old 09-12-2011, 09:08 PM   #18
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I'll use myself as an example. I think you have to look at more than performance. I'm looking at the ZL1, which is the top dog of factory Camaros. It comes fully loaded for $50-$60k. I would and have considered a Corvette. For $50-$60k I basically get a stripped down Grand Sport at best. I'm not really interested in one of the lowest spec Corvettes even if it performs the same. If I get a Vette, I want a Z06 at a minimum with some nice interior options and preferably the Z07 and CFZ packages. Now we are talking $90k - no longer the same price range. I guess it is just a mentallity - do you wan to pay 60k for cloth and sparse options or leather and all the options? The base Vette just doesn't appeal to me for reasons other than performance - it seems like less of a car even if it performs better.

Like others have said - many Corvette snobs wouldn't buy a Camaro even if it was better and to afford a Corvette instead of the ZL1 you give up a lot. People we know who are willing to go either way for a 60k ZL1 or a 60k Vette are rare I think and cause a false sense of the real market. That's my opinion anyway, and the above paragraph represents my reasoning.

Adding used cars complicates the scenario, but are you willing to buy a 60k used Corvette to get what you want or a 60k new Camaro? Now you get the same features but one car is used.

For me, these two cars arent in the same price range for these reasons even if performance is similar.
Did i make myself clear , just what i was thinking , well done !!!
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Old 09-12-2011, 09:42 PM   #19
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I think that as it sits now there are still the old school alumni vette and chevy group. The ones that will stick with thier brand and see it as two completely different things. I also think there is also a younger generation where those elitist lines become blurred. It might not be a lot of the vette vs. ZL1 but it is there.

I also understand the if you compare the ZL1 to a comparable vette the price is not the same. I relate this to the people that say "If you a going to buy this car final price shouldn't be an issue" or "If your buying this car the cost of tires shouldn't be an issue". Life would be great if that were the case but not everyone has a fruit bearing money tree. There are those like myself that are trying to make it work while signing up for a helthy helping of ramen on all the days that end in the letter Y.

So I have to agree with the OP that depending on price there will be people that cross shop. I also think that the vette being the status symbol that it is a base vette puts you onto a different playing field. Like goldenbear stated 80k vs. 12K there will be those that go with the vette just because less people own them. Around my area there are camaros around every corner there are 3 just on my street alone. I am having a hard time putting the Lt and ZL1 in the same sentance but it will help prove my point. Unless close to the two one would have a hard time distinguishing the two apart. Yet from great distance you can tell an LT from a Vette.

I am hoping the price doesn't push me out of the car that has captivated me since Feb.
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Old 09-12-2011, 09:49 PM   #20
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Like goldenbear stated 80k vs. 12K there will be those that go with the vette just because less people own them. Around my area there are camaros around every corner there are 3 just on my street alone. I am having a hard time putting the Lt and ZL1 in the same sentance but it will help prove my point. Unless close to the two one would have a hard time distinguishing the two apart. Yet from great distance you can tell an LT from a Vette.
This was part of my rationale in buying. I've always been turned off by the 'car that everyone drives.' This is why I'd probably never consider buying a Civic for any reason :P

When I bought my Camaro in 2010 the 5th gen was a rare sight. As they grew more popular my girlfriend would continually point to a base model LT and say "look, there's your car!" Owning a fully loaded 2SS, this made my blood boil.

My Grand Sport, on the other hand, is still a rare sight and I enjoy that fact almost as much as the car itself. Maybe I'm part of that "younger generation" but I still consider both amazing vehicles and would be proud to be seen in either.

Mustang, on the other hand.. F that LOL. To each his (her) own.
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Old 09-12-2011, 10:01 PM   #21
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How much is a brand new CTS-V? You can probably bet that the ZL1 will have the same price tag considering it has the same engine and the technology that is equipped.
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Old 09-12-2011, 10:02 PM   #22
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How much is a brand new CTS-V? You can probably bet that the ZL1 will have the same price tag considering it has the same engine and the technology that is equipped.
Does it have the same level of Luxury?

Is the ZL1 a Cadillac?

Two very important questions where this comment is concerned.......
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Old 09-12-2011, 10:15 PM   #23
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I have an '08 Z51 Vette, a 09 CTS-V and a 11 Camaro RS.. and I can attest that I, in no way, consider a Camaro.. V6, SS, or ZL1 to be on the same level as a Corvette. Even if the Camaro has more power than the base/GS Vette in year one.. it still will be no faster I'm willing to bet.

Based on the current upgrades the Corvette has gotten via the Z06-Z07... what I think U are seeing is the C7 Corvette getting ready to move up to a base price of $55K (current base for GS)... GS moving to $60K... Z06 moving to $80K.. and the ZR1 going to $115K

and can U really blame Chevy??? The car that U are getting even in base form is vastly under-priced for the level of performance U get. The base model beats most Ferraris. The Camaro now starting in at $23K going up to a probably $49K base for the ZL1... the Corvette really needs to move up a bit.

In reality.. the low end Sports car segment is weak and unprofitable. The 370z's sales are pathetic. The RX8 is dead. Genesis coupe sales are weak. Chevy.. GM does not need a cheap "Solstice" right now. What they need is a coupe-SS version of the Cruze.
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Old 09-12-2011, 10:20 PM   #24
FINALLYSATISFIED
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
Does it have the same level of Luxury?

Is the ZL1 a Cadillac?

Two very important questions where this comment is concerned.......
I see your point. :(
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Old 09-12-2011, 10:22 PM   #25
Cmicasa the Great XvX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MY1STCAMAR0 View Post
How much is a brand new CTS-V? You can probably bet that the ZL1 will have the same price tag considering it has the same engine and the technology that is equipped.


Are U serious? The ZL-1 will come in at about the same costs as a GT500. GM Execs would be FOOLS to have it start at the $64K price tag of the V, which is actually too low still despite it's $6K price hike since 2009.

Again.. and U should kno this.. and I would think we all should kno this.. A CAMARO..is not a Vette.. and it damn sure ain't a Cadillac.
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