Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Hellion Power Systems
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > General Camaro Forums > Camaro ZL1 Forum - ZL1 Specific Topics

Camaro ZL1 Forum - ZL1 Specific Topics Camaro ZL1 specific topics

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-29-2011, 08:05 PM   #1
BiggFoot
 
BiggFoot's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro (M6) 711 RWHP/680 RWTQ
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 539
Mod the LSA or Sell It And Replace with Supercharged LS7 ???

Ladies and Gents,

Here is where I am struggling and I will need to make a decision fairly soon. I am currently considering two choices and I would like your opinions please along with any supporting information to back your stance:

Turn the LSA into a 417 Stroker with GT-9 or GT-11 cam, forged pistons, 2300 maggie, 10/14 rib pulley upgrade cranking about 750 hp.

OR

Sell the stock 580 HP LSA engine for about $12K and replace with an LS7 block, LS9 heads, forged pistons, GT-9 cam, 10/14 rib pulley upgrade, headers, cranking about 775 HP.

So what do you guys say???
BiggFoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2011, 08:18 PM   #2
91Z28350
 
Drives: 2012 GT500 SVTPP 2010 Traverse LTZ
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Roanoke,TX
Posts: 662
LS7 is a great motor, but if you are going to go with a 427, I have heard the RHS block has thicker cylinder walls and holds up to boost better. There is a reason why GM went with the 6.2 in the ZR1!

One more point, myself, I like the whipple, great whine and from what I have read and seen, the 2.9L Whipple seems to make = or more HP at lower boost and lower IAT, for about the same cost.
91Z28350 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2011, 08:38 PM   #3
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Camaro 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 25,788
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
LS7 block doesn't like boost...very thin cylinder walls to manage that 427ci volume...
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Before You Post.
SIGN UP for 2014 Camaro5 HPDE @ Gingerman Raceway!
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2011, 08:44 PM   #4
IOMZL1

 
IOMZL1's Avatar
 
Drives: 1991 Z28; 2008 SRT 10 Viper Coupe
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 927
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
LS7 block doesn't like boost...very thin cylinder walls to manage that 427ci volume...
This. And the first post too.
IOMZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2011, 08:45 PM   #5
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Camaro 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 25,788
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
Wouldn't the first option be a little less expensive, too?
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Before You Post.
SIGN UP for 2014 Camaro5 HPDE @ Gingerman Raceway!
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2011, 08:53 PM   #6
radz28
Petro-sexual
 
radz28's Avatar
 
Drives: Ultra-Grin
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Crapramento, Crapifornia
Posts: 13,045
LS7 block is relatively expensive. Stroke LSA and call it a day, after your cam ans SC. How much power anyways? Maybe you could get by with rods and pistons on LSA. Same heads as LS9...
__________________
"...What IS true: We anticipated that this would happen - we are never finished - and yes, Ford DOES deserve to win now and then. To think that GM can come out with a car to make ford throw in the towel is simply foolhardy..." - fbodfather
radz28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2011, 08:59 PM   #7
91Z28350
 
Drives: 2012 GT500 SVTPP 2010 Traverse LTZ
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Roanoke,TX
Posts: 662
My understanding also is the LSA block has additional reinforcement in the block over the LS3/LS9 block, though I do not know that for fact, I seem to remember reading it in the description of the LSA motor. If you are going for increased boost, forge the LSA, get a larger twin screw blower or TT and have at it!
91Z28350 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2011, 10:02 PM   #8
GM4lyfe
A GM nut-swinger!
 
GM4lyfe's Avatar
 
Drives: A Car
Join Date: May 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 262
All Al 6.2's should be the same. After the LS9 came out the LS3 got updated to the new casting.
__________________
2004 GTO Quicksilver
2009 G8 Liquid Red
2005 CTS-V Black Raven
GM4lyfe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2011, 10:09 PM   #9
GM4lyfe
A GM nut-swinger!
 
GM4lyfe's Avatar
 
Drives: A Car
Join Date: May 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 262
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggFoot View Post
Ladies and Gents,

Here is where I am struggling and I will need to make a decision fairly soon. I am currently considering two choices and I would like your opinions please along with any supporting information to back your stance:

Turn the LSA into a 417 Stroker with GT-9 or GT-11 cam, forged pistons, 2300 maggie, 10/14 rib pulley upgrade cranking about 750 hp.

OR

Sell the stock 580 HP LSA engine for about $12K and replace with an LS7 block, LS9 heads, forged pistons, GT-9 cam, 10/14 rib pulley upgrade, headers, cranking about 775 HP.

So what do you guys say???
A cheaper option:
Pulley down the stock s/c
Forge pistons, rods
Cam
Tune
Headers
See where that will put ya.

Stock s/c not good enough go with the LS9 s/c. They do it for the CTS-V.

So far what has been offered to the LSA/LS9 is s/c aftermarket inlets and larger heat exchangers net great results.
__________________
2004 GTO Quicksilver
2009 G8 Liquid Red
2005 CTS-V Black Raven
GM4lyfe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2011, 10:09 PM   #10
Milk 1027
Camaro➎ moderator
 
Milk 1027's Avatar
 
Drives: '13 BLK 1LE
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: AZ
Posts: 13,529
You can get that much horsepower out of the LSA without spending as much money.
__________________
Milk 1027 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2011, 10:11 PM   #11
GEEo
OKCamaros
 
GEEo's Avatar
 
Drives: 4 banger Diesel
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Philippines
Posts: 4,602
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milk 1027 View Post
You can get that much horsepower out of the LSA without spending as much money.
+1
GEEo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2011, 12:41 AM   #12
payne.jeremy82
 
payne.jeremy82's Avatar
 
Drives: 2002 Lifted Trailblazer
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 51
Lingenfelter is where im going 700+hp at the crank Lingenfelter is the choice for me

Last edited by payne.jeremy82; 09-30-2011 at 02:15 AM.
payne.jeremy82 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2011, 01:38 AM   #13
DGthe3
Moderator.ca
 
DGthe3's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Grand Am GT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Niagara, Canada
Posts: 22,181
Send a message via MSN to DGthe3
There are better options than the LS7 if you want to swap in a supercharged engine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by payne.jeremy82 View Post
http://www.lingenfelter.com/engine-p...charged-engine-
This is where im going 700+hp at the crank Lingenfelter is the choice for me
I just lost a little respect for Lingenfelter after looking at that URL (link is broken by the way). Someone over there needs to be told that the LS3/L99/LSA/LS9 engines are not 378 cubic inches, because they're not exactly 6.2L ... they're 6.162L, which works out to 376 cubes. I thought they'd be better than that.
__________________
Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them
__________________
don't believe a thing you read about the next gen Camaro -- as history has proven time and time again:

WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT FUTURE PRODUCT PLANS PERIOD FbodFather
__________________

Camaro5 Fest sub-forum
DGthe3 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2011, 01:47 AM   #14
a_Username


 
a_Username's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS Camaro
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
Posts: 3,893
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
There are better options than the LS7 if you want to swap in a supercharged engine.
I just lost a little respect for Lingenfelter after looking at that URL (link is broken by the way). Someone over there needs to be told that the LS3/L99/LSA/LS9 engines are not 378 cubic inches, because they're not exactly 6.2L ... they're 6.162L, which works out to 376 cubes. I thought they'd be better than that.
Apparently they listened to ya... I just got "page not found."
a_Username is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2011, 01:49 AM   #15
DietCoke
Slow Turtle
 
DietCoke's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 1SS
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Richmond Hill, GA
Posts: 1,119
Send a message via AIM to DietCoke
Stroking a boosted motor is an exercise in futility. You're limited by what the boost device pushes into the motor, not by the motor itself.
DietCoke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2011, 04:59 AM   #16
91Z28350
 
Drives: 2012 GT500 SVTPP 2010 Traverse LTZ
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Roanoke,TX
Posts: 662
2.9L doesn't limit it! Just saying And for that matter, I think you would be good with the 2.3 up to 750-800, at least ADM, SLP, Lingenfelter, Hennessey (and other tuners I missed) seem to think so.
91Z28350 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2011, 08:56 AM   #17
BiggFoot
 
BiggFoot's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro (M6) 711 RWHP/680 RWTQ
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Houston
Posts: 539
All great comments gentlemen, and taken under advisement. In my gut I felt like keeping the LSA would probably be the best route to take as I understand that it is basically a detuned LS9 which upgrading the supercharger and forging the bottom end can easily fix. As one of you pointed out, modding the LSA would be cheaper in the long run VS relpacing with the LS7, but you must admit there is something a bit sexy with saying you have a 427 sitting under the hood

I really dont know much about all of this engine detail stuff, that is why I am asking. The little bit I have picked up just by asking questions is just enough to be dangerous, but I have never owned a muscle car and I would rather shell out the bucks to get it right the first time instead of continually going back to add this or that later on.

One of you stated that stroking doesnt necessarily add HP and that could be true. But since I am having the bottom end forged I may as well, right? I understand it does improve torque, but someone (possibly Ted Jannety) stated that you gain about 1 hp for each cui added so going from 376 to 416/417 would add about 40 hp and a bunch of torque so I am told.
BiggFoot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2011, 10:47 AM   #18
djsnoflake
Faith Keeper
 
djsnoflake's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 Silverado LTZ, 2010 2SS/RS
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan Canada
Posts: 2,791
Why not Sell the LSA and buy an LS9?

Pretty good starter motor. You could mod after if you still felt the need.

Although if you have never owned a muscle car, you should try renting an SS and see what you think. That might be more than enough car for you.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by fbodfather View Post
.........we are far from finished.................
djsnoflake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2011, 10:55 AM   #19
radz28
Petro-sexual
 
radz28's Avatar
 
Drives: Ultra-Grin
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Crapramento, Crapifornia
Posts: 13,045
Quote:
Originally Posted by 91Z28350 View Post
My understanding also is the LSA block has additional reinforcement in the block over the LS3/LS9 block, though I do not know that for fact, I seem to remember reading it in the description of the LSA motor. If you are going for increased boost, forge the LSA, get a larger twin screw blower or TT and have at it!
As pointed out in later posts, I believe the blocks are now the same, since LS9/LSA came out. The only differences now, are steel caps in LS9, while LS9/LSA share the honing proceedure. I believe the cylinder walls in LS7 are also a different metal casting, and the way they're anchored into the block itself doesn't really lend as well to boost as opposed to most of the rest of the aluminum LS-blocks. I was thinking the heat treating on LS9/LSA were of higher standards (T-319 or something...), but I can't verify LS3 blocks are any different...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 91Z28350 View Post
2.9L doesn't limit it! Just saying And for that matter, I think you would be good with the 2.3 up to 750-800, at least ADM, SLP, Lingenfelter, Hennessey (and other tuners I missed) seem to think so.
I believe the R2300 rotors are good to 800 horsepower (R1900s are like 100 less), just like you were saying. I know I have the compressor maps, but there are too many colors and numbers I think the 2300 runs out of breathe after 850. Lingenfelter's LS9-car is running +1200 RWHP, but it also has a 500-shot, lol. Either entry-level twin screw (2.8/2.9) for these cars will easily support near 1000-horse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DietCoke View Post
Stroking a boosted motor is an exercise in futility. You're limited by what the boost device pushes into the motor, not by the motor itself.
I was only saying stroke because I was expecting the later comment by the OP about getting 427 CI

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggFoot View Post
All great comments gentlemen, and taken under advisement. In my gut I felt like keeping the LSA would probably be the best route to take as I understand that it is basically a detuned LS9 which upgrading the supercharger and forging the bottom end can easily fix. As one of you pointed out, modding the LSA would be cheaper in the long run VS relpacing with the LS7, but you must admit there is something a bit sexy with saying you have a 427 sitting under the hood

I really dont know much about all of this engine detail stuff, that is why I am asking. The little bit I have picked up just by asking questions is just enough to be dangerous, but I have never owned a muscle car and I would rather shell out the bucks to get it right the first time instead of continually going back to add this or that later on.

One of you stated that stroking doesnt necessarily add HP and that could be true. But since I am having the bottom end forged I may as well, right? I understand it does improve torque, but someone (possibly Ted Jannety) stated that you gain about 1 hp for each cui added so going from 376 to 416/417 would add about 40 hp and a bunch of torque so I am told.
I also suggesting stroking because boring will put you back into a similar wall-thickness situation like LS7s sort of have. Adding CI will add power if everything else is matched, but it costs more $$$. If you have it though, why not get it to where you want it the first time?

The best suggestion I can offer (because I'm certainly no expert on anything) is to figure out where you want to be. If you're only looking for 700 horsepower, you don't need to do a fraction of what you were thinking. If you want 800 horsepower, you'll definately want to get into that shortblock and get at the valvetrain and heads, and probably upgrade the SC and intercooling system. If you're looking for more, you're certainly looking at probably going down the road of a completely re-worked long block and SC. There are many Sponsors here that can help you with a plan once you know where you want to go. I'd urge you to establish the goal, and seek out a Sponsor to help you get there

Good luck and please keep us posted
__________________
"...What IS true: We anticipated that this would happen - we are never finished - and yes, Ford DOES deserve to win now and then. To think that GM can come out with a car to make ford throw in the towel is simply foolhardy..." - fbodfather
radz28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2011, 11:00 AM   #20
Z4me

 
Z4me's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 ZL1 IOM Vin #169
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,940
Mod LSA if I was to choose. They have just placed so much research into this project, plus the caddie has been using the LSA for awhile now. So
I would stay with the LSA and do whatever you can afford up to the capabilites that the LZ1 can handle.
__________________
<img src=http://www.camaro5.com/forums/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=36987&dateline=1334886195 border=0 alt= />

Last edited by Z4me; 09-30-2011 at 11:31 AM.
Z4me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2011, 11:04 AM   #21
radz28
Petro-sexual
 
radz28's Avatar
 
Drives: Ultra-Grin
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Crapramento, Crapifornia
Posts: 13,045
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z4me View Post
Mod LSA if I was to choose. They have just placed so much research into this project, plus the caddie has been using the LSA for awhile now. So
I would still with the LSA and do whatever you can afford up to the capabilites that the LZ1 can handle.
I can't post the companies link because they're not a Sponsor, but I'll definately be looking into similar mods' for mine. They're all pretty simple and push that "little" 1900 to it's limit. I think they can pulley to 19 psi with their H/C package... They don't really have anything too much more special than our Sponsors, but I see they just make LSA one of their top focuses.
__________________
"...What IS true: We anticipated that this would happen - we are never finished - and yes, Ford DOES deserve to win now and then. To think that GM can come out with a car to make ford throw in the towel is simply foolhardy..." - fbodfather
radz28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2011, 12:39 PM   #22
GM4lyfe
A GM nut-swinger!
 
GM4lyfe's Avatar
 
Drives: A Car
Join Date: May 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 262
To be on the safe side while you have the bottom end apart go with good ARP bolts. I would also do ARP head bolts with MLS gaskets. Boosted motors put more stress on parts than a equal powed NA motor. Do it right the first time and save yourself the trouble later down the road. You notice the LS9 have larger head bolts with only 80hp more than the LSA.
__________________
2004 GTO Quicksilver
2009 G8 Liquid Red
2005 CTS-V Black Raven
GM4lyfe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2011, 01:57 PM   #23
Milk 1027
Camaro➎ moderator
 
Milk 1027's Avatar
 
Drives: '13 BLK 1LE
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: AZ
Posts: 13,529
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsnoflake View Post
Why not Sell the LSA and buy an LS9?

Pretty good starter motor. You could mod after if you still felt the need.

Although if you have never owned a muscle car, you should try renting an SS and see what you think. That might be more than enough car for you.
That's still more expensive than just modding the LSA to have the same power.
__________________
Milk 1027 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2011, 07:21 PM   #24
DGthe3
Moderator.ca
 
DGthe3's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Grand Am GT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Niagara, Canada
Posts: 22,181
Send a message via MSN to DGthe3
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_Username View Post
Apparently they listened to ya... I just got "page not found."
I couldn't find the exact page either, at first I had the same thought you did ... that they have since fixed the page. But I went looking through their site (to try and find the page he tried to link to) and every engine package they have for the 6.2L V8s (LS3, L99, LSA, LS9) describes them as '378 CID'. Whoopsie.
__________________
Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them
__________________
don't believe a thing you read about the next gen Camaro -- as history has proven time and time again:

WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT FUTURE PRODUCT PLANS PERIOD FbodFather
__________________

Camaro5 Fest sub-forum
DGthe3 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2011, 07:40 PM   #25
Go Fast Kid
 
Drives: Camaro 2010 SS LS7 427ci
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Miami
Posts: 61
Biggfoot

Stick with the LSA and do your mods. I transplanted an LS7, race cam, 305cc intake chamber Mast heads, FAST intake, ZR1 injectors and all forged internals, mahle pistons 11.4:1 compression. The motor makes almost 600 lbs of torque @ 630 hp.

The trouble with all that power is you start breaking, drive train parts, suspension parts and the like. My car runs great however foot to the floor shifting through four gears, lots of stuff breaks.

GM did good job of upgrading the drive line in the ZL 1 however that might require more upgrades still.

The LS 7 block and forged internals are bulletproof and the cylinder walls are more than strong enough for a street car.

Save some money in the budget to replace broken drivetrain components.
Go Fast Kid is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.