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Old 09-29-2011, 05:43 PM   #51
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I myself had a 69 Chevelle with a 396/375 Engine , it had factory aluminum dual plane intake manifold , rectangular port heads and solid lift cam . Transmission was an M22 Rock crusher as they called with a 12 bolt detroit locker rear end .I was only 18 years old when I was driving this beast. That would have been around 1980-81 . The memories are incredible , reading this article just reminded me of this . Thanks .
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Old 09-30-2011, 10:42 AM   #52
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My first car was a 69 SS396-375hp Chevelle 4 speed when I was 16 years old.
Then later on I had a 67 Camaro SS that had a 69 302 in it. Even though the Chevelle was heavier it would blow the Camaro away.
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Old 10-01-2011, 08:20 AM   #53
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Here's a dyno test on a 302 with two cam changes. This was done in 1967.
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Old 10-01-2011, 06:21 PM   #54
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Here's a dyno test back on a 302 with two cam changes. This was done in 1967.
And I hope people pay attention and see that test was for a single 800 CFM Holley 4 barrel and not the cross ram dual quad.
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Old 10-01-2011, 10:13 PM   #55
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L78 acceleration > 302

Z28 all around > L78
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Old 10-03-2011, 02:27 AM   #56
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Overall Camaro high performance was and always should be the Z28.
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Old 10-03-2011, 10:28 AM   #57
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Found some old stats, pretty close and notice the Z28's 1/4 MPH.

The 1967 Chevrolet Camaro Z28
Specifications
Wheelbase, inches: 108.1
Weight, lbs: 3,500
Number built: 602
Base price: $3,500
Standard Engine
Type: ohv V-8
Displacement, cid: 302
Fuel system: 1 x 4bbl.
Compression ratio: 11.0:1
Horsepower @ rpm: 290 @ 5800
Torque @ rpm: 290 @ 4200
Representative Performance
0-60 mph, sec: 6.9
1/4 mile, sec. @ mph: 14.85 @ 101


The 1967 Chevrolet Camaro SS 396
Specifications
Wheelbase, inches: 108.1
Weight, lbs: 3,720
Number built: NA
Base price: $3,046
Top Available Engine
Type: ohv V-8
Displacement, cid: 396
Fuel system: 1 x 4bbl.
Compression ratio: 11.0:1
Horsepower @ rpm: 375 @ 5600
Torque @ rpm: 415 @ 3600
Representative Performance
0-60 mph, sec: 6.5
1/4 mile, sec. @ mph: 14.5 @ 99
200lbs weight difference between the two yet the heavier SS posts a faster time in the 1/4 mile....
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Old 10-03-2011, 11:12 AM   #58
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Yes but that is part of what you pay for in a BB. Notice the MPH. The Top Dog is an all around performer not just a 1/4 mile triumph.
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Old 10-03-2011, 12:02 PM   #59
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Yes but that is part of what you pay for in a BB. Notice the MPH. The Top Dog is an all around performer not just a 1/4 mile triumph.
Meh...

Faster 0-60
Faster 1/4 mile

Top speed doesn't mean a whole lot when you are still BEHIND me...and if it takes you longer to get there, who cares how fast you ran to get there.

And a 2mph faster time despite almost .3 slower isn't really anything to brag about.

I'd also be curious to note the gearing on those cars....
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Old 10-03-2011, 12:49 PM   #60
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The thing I remember about the late 60's Z28'S were the solid lifters. You could hear those solid lifters chattering when she wound up. All the other cars were running hydraulic lifters and they were quiet.
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Old 10-03-2011, 02:59 PM   #61
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Meh...

Faster 0-60
Faster 1/4 mile

Top speed doesn't mean a whole lot when you are still BEHIND me...and if it takes you longer to get there, who cares how fast you ran to get there.

And a 2mph faster time despite almost .3 slower isn't really anything to brag about.

I'd also be curious to note the gearing on those cars....

Wow, a 1/4 mile triumph by a few tenths... not that interested. Give me an "ALL" around performance machine! Noting the higher MPH means it's geared for a full track experience not just a 1/4 mile.
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Old 10-03-2011, 03:03 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
Wow, a 1/4 mile triumph by a few tenths... not that interested. Give me an "ALL" around performance machine! Noting the higher MPH means it's geared for a full track experience not just a 1/4 mile.
Yet you obviously overlooked the last part of my comment, as I'd like to know what gears were setup on the two. Gearing would make a much bigger impact on both cars....

However, in this instance, the 1/4 mile performance is what is being measured. I'd wager if you took both of those cars out on the road course, they'd be pretty even honestly...
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Old 10-03-2011, 03:07 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilsReject97 View Post
Yet you obviously overlooked the last part of my comment, as I'd like to know what gears were setup on the two. Gearing would make a much bigger impact on both cars....

However, in this instance, the 1/4 mile performance is what is being measured. I'd wager if you took both of those cars out on the road course, they'd be pretty even honestly...
From my post:
Noting the higher MPH means it's geared for a full track experience not just a 1/4 mile.

I bet not even close!!!
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Old 10-03-2011, 06:07 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilsReject97 View Post
Yet you obviously overlooked the last part of my comment, as I'd like to know what gears were setup on the two. Gearing would make a much bigger impact on both cars....

However, in this instance, the 1/4 mile performance is what is being measured. I'd wager if you took both of those cars out on the road course, they'd be pretty even honestly...
Not even close!! That 200 lbs or so of weight difference was all in the nose of the SS 396. It was my experience back in the day that many times SS396 and Z/28 were close in 1/4 mi performance, throw a few curves or a road course into the mix and all the SS396 saw was Z/28 tail lights.
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Old 10-03-2011, 06:42 PM   #65
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Jack of all trades = Z28
Master of One(?) = SS396

Don't get me wrong I really do like the SS, however I will buy a Z28.
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Old 10-06-2011, 05:50 PM   #66
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This also reminds me of a good friend of mine back then Tim Trevathan who had the 69 model Z-28 with the 302 engine . I remember one night when we were not ourselves and he pegged it out( floored it on the interstate) . I looked over and the oil light had come on around 120 mph. Needless to say it was knocking pretty heavily after all the oil got pumped to the high ends .
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Old 10-07-2011, 01:24 PM   #67
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I'm not sure what you are referencing when you say it knocked pretty heavily when all the oil was topside....It can't be the valvetrain....You do know that the 302 had solid lifters don't you?
I've ran my 302 to 7,000 rpm many many times, never had an oil issue.
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Old 10-07-2011, 02:59 PM   #68
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The thought just occured to me that, "theoretically", the hands-down Top Dog Gen-1 Camaro should have been the COPO 9560 (ZL1-engined) Camaro with the COPO 9737 "Sports Car Conversion" package (Z/28-specific 13/16" front sway bar and E70/15 tires/wheels)...of which exactly TWO were built (#3, #69)...hardly an RPO-qualifying effort.

http://www.camaros.org/9560list.shtml

These two COPO 9560 cars should have been all-'round street terrors...Z/28 underpinnings...Z/28 Curb Weight (ZL1 engine = SBC in weight)...at least an extra 150 "real" hp. Trouble was, the ZL1 Camaros weren't "eligible" for any mass-audience race series involving corners...unless you count the one at the end of the strip... Woulda made fantastic drift cars...if such an event was present/known, then.
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Old 10-07-2011, 07:01 PM   #69
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^I want a Gen5 version of that!!!
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Old 10-07-2011, 07:20 PM   #70
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Old 10-07-2011, 11:39 PM   #71
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I've always thought of the BIG BLOCKS as the BIG DOG, and they were normally SS's. Simply because they had more meat, more torque, more development potential prior to breaking. They could always blow away their little brothers. The little brothers were good, but not "that" good. CUBES = CRED for the "title" TOP DOG. Normally. Just like today's ls7 is drilled out leaving it with thinner walls, etc... However, in this world of today The SMALL BLOCKS rule, BIG BLOCKS are passe~.... That said, todays SS's will never have MORE BLOCK so, Z28 will be top dog, shared of course with its TWIN Brother who has a little different setup, the ZL1. SS is simply a "street" monicker. Z28 and ZL1 imply a "track/strip" monicker. Kinda simple if you ask me.
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Old 10-08-2011, 07:25 AM   #72
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I've always thought of the BIG BLOCKS as the BIG DOG, and they were normally SS's. Simply because they had more meat, more torque, more development potential prior to breaking. They could always blow away their little brothers. The little brothers were good, but not "that" good. CUBES = CRED for the "title" TOP DOG. Normally. Just like today's ls7 is drilled out leaving it with thinner walls, etc... However, in this world of today The SMALL BLOCKS rule, BIG BLOCKS are passe~.... That said, todays SS's will never have MORE BLOCK so, Z28 will be top dog, shared of course with its TWIN Brother who has a little different setup, the ZL1. SS is simply a "street" monicker. Z28 and ZL1 imply a "track/strip" monicker. Kinda simple if you ask me.
But we are talking top dog, not big dog!! The BB Camaros were awesome back in the day, that's not even in question, but were they the overall best performers? Well that depends on your criteria for overall best performer. My feeling has always been that the BB Camaros were for the most part a "one trick pony" while the Z/28 was the complete performance package back in the day. That's why in '69 I bought a Z/28 rather than a BB SS. Today's ZL1 is a much more complete package than the original ZL1, you need only look at it's Nurburgring time to see that. In my eyes the Z/28 was the production top dog back in the day (first gen), in forty plus years since then I have seen nothing to convince me otherwise.
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Old 10-08-2011, 04:37 PM   #73
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But we are talking top dog, not big dog!! The BB Camaros were awesome back in the day, that's not even in question, but were they the overall best performers? Well that depends on your criteria for overall best performer. My feeling has always been that the BB Camaros were for the most part a "one trick pony" while the Z/28 was the complete performance package back in the day. That's why in '69 I bought a Z/28 rather than a BB SS. Today's ZL1 is a much more complete package than the original ZL1, you need only look at it's Nurburgring time to see that. In my eyes the Z/28 was the production top dog back in the day (first gen), in forty plus years since then I have seen nothing to convince me otherwise.
Clyde
Paws, I agree, but one thing you gotta admit, back in the day, the BB could BREATHE Like no tomorrow continuing to pull in 1/4 mile races. So a BB could go with lower gears like 488's or 512's and not be out of breath at the 1320. I always thought the Z28 (hey, and I was 17 yrs old when it came out) was the TOP factory DOG, but it was maxed out from the factory. The BB's like a 396/375 were no where near maxed out. They had more CLEARANCE to build on top. The 302 was about DONE as far as it could go. So if you wanted a STREET BULLY, it was kind of a toss up, but I always knew a BB could, IF IT WAS BUILT WITH SIMILAR INTERNALS TO A 302 KICK ALMOST ANYTHINGS ASS. So, OUT THE DOOR, the 302 z28 wins. But, for those who were willing to put wide stickies on, lower gears, headers, the BB would kick the Z's butt in the 1/4. Just my opinion. I think its kind of a toss up argument. Now, Im only talking STREET racing ok? Tho I dont condone it anymore! 302 was THE ONLY TRACK CAR.
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Old 10-08-2011, 06:06 PM   #74
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Paws, I agree, but one thing you gotta admit, back in the day, the BB could BREATHE Like no tomorrow continuing to pull in 1/4 mile races. So a BB could go with lower gears like 488's or 512's and not be out of breath at the 1320. I always thought the Z28 (hey, and I was 17 yrs old when it came out) was the TOP factory DOG, but it was maxed out from the factory. The BB's like a 396/375 were no where near maxed out. They had more CLEARANCE to build on top. The 302 was about DONE as far as it could go. So if you wanted a STREET BULLY, it was kind of a toss up, but I always knew a BB could, IF IT WAS BUILT WITH SIMILAR INTERNALS TO A 302 KICK ALMOST ANYTHINGS ASS. So, OUT THE DOOR, the 302 z28 wins. But, for those who were willing to put wide stickies on, lower gears, headers, the BB would kick the Z's butt in the 1/4. Just my opinion. I think its kind of a toss up argument. Now, Im only talking STREET racing ok? Tho I dont condone it anymore! 302 was THE ONLY TRACK CAR.
I'm not going to argue the points with you, we both have a right to our own opinions. I do share thoughts and info as I like for all the information to be out there. I will touch on the rear gear ratios briefly, The first gen. Z/28 had a standard 3.73 rear, so it was by no means maxed out as far as rear gear selection. There were 4.10, 4.56, and 4.88 rear gears available from Chevrolet, one of my friends from back in the day had a 4.56 rear on his and it would scat in the quarter mile. Headers, Z/28 came with cast iron log style factory exhaust manifolds, a good set of headers was often one of the first things Z/28 owners changed. The standard distributor was a single point type, the factory optional distributor was a high energy version, many owners switched to dual point Vette distributors. And so on, there were many things that could still be upgraded on the Z/28, it was a long way from maxed out.
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Old 10-08-2011, 07:09 PM   #75
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Overall Camaro high performance was and always should be the Z28.
BBC > SBC.. enough said. Z28 had a 302 screamer, but a healthy 396 (Z-27) will stomp it in the straight line, given traction.


there are a ton of differences between engines, drivetrains, and chassis between the different models.. several different steering boxes, steering knuckles, 3 different motor mount stands, saginaw, muncie, and auto transmissions, tons of spring options, different rear ends, different posi options, factory traction bar option on the SS cars, the Z28 has a HUGE front sway bar (it's like 1 3/8), many different brake options, the list is HUGE. A firstgen with a healthy BBC is hard to beat. (Although my '67 LS1 pulls my old neighbors' injected '67 502CI crate motored monster every single time )

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