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Old 10-07-2011, 08:01 PM   #69
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Old 10-07-2011, 08:20 PM   #70
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Old 10-08-2011, 12:39 AM   #71
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I've always thought of the BIG BLOCKS as the BIG DOG, and they were normally SS's. Simply because they had more meat, more torque, more development potential prior to breaking. They could always blow away their little brothers. The little brothers were good, but not "that" good. CUBES = CRED for the "title" TOP DOG. Normally. Just like today's ls7 is drilled out leaving it with thinner walls, etc... However, in this world of today The SMALL BLOCKS rule, BIG BLOCKS are passe~.... That said, todays SS's will never have MORE BLOCK so, Z28 will be top dog, shared of course with its TWIN Brother who has a little different setup, the ZL1. SS is simply a "street" monicker. Z28 and ZL1 imply a "track/strip" monicker. Kinda simple if you ask me.
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Old 10-08-2011, 08:25 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by htron50 View Post
I've always thought of the BIG BLOCKS as the BIG DOG, and they were normally SS's. Simply because they had more meat, more torque, more development potential prior to breaking. They could always blow away their little brothers. The little brothers were good, but not "that" good. CUBES = CRED for the "title" TOP DOG. Normally. Just like today's ls7 is drilled out leaving it with thinner walls, etc... However, in this world of today The SMALL BLOCKS rule, BIG BLOCKS are passe~.... That said, todays SS's will never have MORE BLOCK so, Z28 will be top dog, shared of course with its TWIN Brother who has a little different setup, the ZL1. SS is simply a "street" monicker. Z28 and ZL1 imply a "track/strip" monicker. Kinda simple if you ask me.
But we are talking top dog, not big dog!! The BB Camaros were awesome back in the day, that's not even in question, but were they the overall best performers? Well that depends on your criteria for overall best performer. My feeling has always been that the BB Camaros were for the most part a "one trick pony" while the Z/28 was the complete performance package back in the day. That's why in '69 I bought a Z/28 rather than a BB SS. Today's ZL1 is a much more complete package than the original ZL1, you need only look at it's Nurburgring time to see that. In my eyes the Z/28 was the production top dog back in the day (first gen), in forty plus years since then I have seen nothing to convince me otherwise.
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Old 10-08-2011, 05:37 PM   #73
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But we are talking top dog, not big dog!! The BB Camaros were awesome back in the day, that's not even in question, but were they the overall best performers? Well that depends on your criteria for overall best performer. My feeling has always been that the BB Camaros were for the most part a "one trick pony" while the Z/28 was the complete performance package back in the day. That's why in '69 I bought a Z/28 rather than a BB SS. Today's ZL1 is a much more complete package than the original ZL1, you need only look at it's Nurburgring time to see that. In my eyes the Z/28 was the production top dog back in the day (first gen), in forty plus years since then I have seen nothing to convince me otherwise.
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Paws, I agree, but one thing you gotta admit, back in the day, the BB could BREATHE Like no tomorrow continuing to pull in 1/4 mile races. So a BB could go with lower gears like 488's or 512's and not be out of breath at the 1320. I always thought the Z28 (hey, and I was 17 yrs old when it came out) was the TOP factory DOG, but it was maxed out from the factory. The BB's like a 396/375 were no where near maxed out. They had more CLEARANCE to build on top. The 302 was about DONE as far as it could go. So if you wanted a STREET BULLY, it was kind of a toss up, but I always knew a BB could, IF IT WAS BUILT WITH SIMILAR INTERNALS TO A 302 KICK ALMOST ANYTHINGS ASS. So, OUT THE DOOR, the 302 z28 wins. But, for those who were willing to put wide stickies on, lower gears, headers, the BB would kick the Z's butt in the 1/4. Just my opinion. I think its kind of a toss up argument. Now, Im only talking STREET racing ok? Tho I dont condone it anymore! 302 was THE ONLY TRACK CAR.
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Old 10-08-2011, 07:06 PM   #74
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Paws, I agree, but one thing you gotta admit, back in the day, the BB could BREATHE Like no tomorrow continuing to pull in 1/4 mile races. So a BB could go with lower gears like 488's or 512's and not be out of breath at the 1320. I always thought the Z28 (hey, and I was 17 yrs old when it came out) was the TOP factory DOG, but it was maxed out from the factory. The BB's like a 396/375 were no where near maxed out. They had more CLEARANCE to build on top. The 302 was about DONE as far as it could go. So if you wanted a STREET BULLY, it was kind of a toss up, but I always knew a BB could, IF IT WAS BUILT WITH SIMILAR INTERNALS TO A 302 KICK ALMOST ANYTHINGS ASS. So, OUT THE DOOR, the 302 z28 wins. But, for those who were willing to put wide stickies on, lower gears, headers, the BB would kick the Z's butt in the 1/4. Just my opinion. I think its kind of a toss up argument. Now, Im only talking STREET racing ok? Tho I dont condone it anymore! 302 was THE ONLY TRACK CAR.
I'm not going to argue the points with you, we both have a right to our own opinions. I do share thoughts and info as I like for all the information to be out there. I will touch on the rear gear ratios briefly, The first gen. Z/28 had a standard 3.73 rear, so it was by no means maxed out as far as rear gear selection. There were 4.10, 4.56, and 4.88 rear gears available from Chevrolet, one of my friends from back in the day had a 4.56 rear on his and it would scat in the quarter mile. Headers, Z/28 came with cast iron log style factory exhaust manifolds, a good set of headers was often one of the first things Z/28 owners changed. The standard distributor was a single point type, the factory optional distributor was a high energy version, many owners switched to dual point Vette distributors. And so on, there were many things that could still be upgraded on the Z/28, it was a long way from maxed out.
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Old 10-08-2011, 08:09 PM   #75
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Overall Camaro high performance was and always should be the Z28.
BBC > SBC.. enough said. Z28 had a 302 screamer, but a healthy 396 (Z-27) will stomp it in the straight line, given traction.


there are a ton of differences between engines, drivetrains, and chassis between the different models.. several different steering boxes, steering knuckles, 3 different motor mount stands, saginaw, muncie, and auto transmissions, tons of spring options, different rear ends, different posi options, factory traction bar option on the SS cars, the Z28 has a HUGE front sway bar (it's like 1 3/8), many different brake options, the list is HUGE. A firstgen with a healthy BBC is hard to beat. (Although my '67 LS1 pulls my old neighbors' injected '67 502CI crate motored monster every single time )

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Old 10-08-2011, 08:21 PM   #76
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200lbs weight difference between the two yet the heavier SS posts a faster time in the 1/4 mile....
The weights listed are way incorrect. My '67 with a Saginaw 3 speed and the factory 327 4bbl SBC weighed about 3050 rolling through the factory doors. The z/28 had an aluminum intake manifold (-30 lbs) a M22 and a 12 bolt. I REALLY doubt it weighed over 3200.

Edit:

Chevrolet listed curb weights for the 1967 Camaro as 2,910 pounds for the 6-cylinder coupe, 3,070 pounds for the 8-cylinder coupe, 3,165 pounds for the 6-cylinder convertible, and 3,325 for the 8-cylinder convertible. Add 21 pounds for power windows, 20 pounds for the folding rear seat, 86 pounds for air conditioning, 9 pounds for power brakes, 23 pounds for front disc brakes, 10 pounds for the 250-cid 6-cylinder engine, 39 pounds for the 327-cid V-8 engine, 72 pounds for the 350-cid V-8 engine, 258 pounds for the 396-cid V-8 engine, 7 pounds for the four speed manual transmission, 14 pounds for the Powerglide, 56 pounds for the Turbo Hydra-Matic, 38 pounds for dual exhaust, 29 pounds for power steering, 15 pounds for heavy duty battery, 8 pounds for an AM radio, 9 pounds for an AM-FM radio, and 17 pounds for the Rally Sport.

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Old 10-08-2011, 08:58 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by 67rscamarovette View Post
BBC > SBC.. enough said. Z28 had a 302 screamer, but a healthy 396 (Z-27) will stomp it in the straight line, given traction.


there are a ton of differences between engines, drivetrains, and chassis between the different models.. several different steering boxes, steering knuckles, 3 different motor mount stands, saginaw, muncie, and auto transmissions, tons of spring options, different rear ends, different posi options, factory traction bar option on the SS cars, the Z28 has a HUGE front sway bar (it's like 1 3/8), many different brake options, the list is HUGE. A firstgen with a healthy BBC is hard to beat. (Although my '67 LS1 pulls my old neighbors' injected '67 502CI crate motored monster every single time )
And like I've said all along, if your criteria for top dog was impressive quarter mile performance then the BB is a simple choice, if your criteria is overall performance then the Z/28 was the better choice.
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Old 10-09-2011, 12:37 PM   #78
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I really don't think there is any argument Wildpaws. We all know the Z28 was the Top Dawg of that generation for Camaro when it came to street cred. Back then you have to admit, however, that 1/4 mile track times were more important to street buyers than were road course times. I respected all Camaro's. But the Z28 always got a special neck twist from me!
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Old 10-09-2011, 01:48 PM   #79
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[QUOTE=htron50;3860758]I really don't think there is any argument Wildpaws. We all know the Z28 was the Top Dawg of that generation for Camaro when it came to street cred. Back then you have to admit, however, that 1/4 mile track times were more important to street buyers than were road course times. I respected all Camaro's. But the Z28 always got a special neck twist from me![/QUOTE

I agree!! I had a '67 RS that was a lot of fun, but I saw and heard some Z/28s and that made my decision in '69 to buy a new Z/28.
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Old 10-09-2011, 03:41 PM   #80
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[QUOTE=wildpaws;3860961]
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Originally Posted by htron50 View Post
I really don't think there is any argument Wildpaws. We all know the Z28 was the Top Dawg of that generation for Camaro when it came to street cred. Back then you have to admit, however, that 1/4 mile track times were more important to street buyers than were road course times. I respected all Camaro's. But the Z28 always got a special neck twist from me![/QUOTE

I agree!! I had a '67 RS that was a lot of fun, but I saw and heard some Z/28s and that made my decision in '69 to buy a new Z/28.
Clyde
You won't (no, yes you will) believe this.... I had my GTO back in HS. I was always known for never losing a race. I raced this '67 327/275 HP Camaro with 4:11 gears. He pulled me out of the hole all the way thru 2nd gear. It took me middle of third gear to even up with him and finally in 4th I nosed him out. I was kind of shocked at what that little 327 almost got away with on me. I also bought a 1970 Nova... 350/250. Thats right. 2BBL. I put J70x14 inche rims on it. Pure stock.. Not even headers. It had a 305 posi. 4 spd. I would tach it up to about 4000 pop the clutch and launch with about 5 feet of spin while 396/375's sat spinnin, while 440 GTX's sat spinnin, while "YOU NAME IT" sat spinnin. I don't know how, but I thought I had a "Factory test" motor or something. I took it too Aquasco speedway in Maryland. 1/4 Mile. 13.88 in the qtr pure stock with the setup I told you. I later got bold, put on headers, carb, and intake manifold...... thought "MY GOD, if its doing 13.88 now, imagine with those additions?" Well, it started running 14.7's. Almost lost a whole second. Know why? Too much gas for the cam etc... It was putting too much gas in and choking! I should never have touched it. It too, was amazing car. I ran SS's, GTX's etc all day with it. I got them by about 8 cars out of the hole... and rarely did any catch up before my little two barrel started gasping for breath...... though it did!

AT the end of the races I would pop my hood to show them what I had.. and all they could see was this little 3" circumference single carb with no headers and say.."you did something to this"..... so I KNOW chevy makes good motors!!
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Old 10-09-2011, 05:45 PM   #81
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[QUOTE=htron50;3861244]
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Originally Posted by wildpaws View Post

You won't (no, yes you will) believe this.... I had my GTO back in HS. I was always known for never losing a race. I raced this '67 327/275 HP Camaro with 4:11 gears. He pulled me out of the hole all the way thru 2nd gear. It took me middle of third gear to even up with him and finally in 4th I nosed him out. I was kind of shocked at what that little 327 almost got away with on me. I also bought a 1970 Nova... 350/250. Thats right. 2BBL. I put J70x14 inche rims on it. Pure stock.. Not even headers. It had a 305 posi. 4 spd. I would tach it up to about 4000 pop the clutch and launch with about 5 feet of spin while 396/375's sat spinnin, while 440 GTX's sat spinnin, while "YOU NAME IT" sat spinnin. I don't know how, but I thought I had a "Factory test" motor or something. I took it too Aquasco speedway in Maryland. 1/4 Mile. 13.88 in the qtr pure stock with the setup I told you. I later got bold, put on headers, carb, and intake manifold...... thought "MY GOD, if its doing 13.88 now, imagine with those additions?" Well, it started running 14.7's. Almost lost a whole second. Know why? Too much gas for the cam etc... It was putting too much gas in and choking! I should never have touched it. It too, was amazing car. I ran SS's, GTX's etc all day with it. I got them by about 8 cars out of the hole... and rarely did any catch up before my little two barrel started gasping for breath...... though it did!

AT the end of the races I would pop my hood to show them what I had.. and all they could see was this little 3" circumference single carb with no headers and say.."you did something to this"..... so I KNOW chevy makes good motors!!
I absolutely believe you! Let me preface my old experiences with I absolutely think racing should be on the strip or track, never on the street, but I was young and dumb back then. My '67 RS was a 327/210 two barrel and ran like a scalded cat. I used to get beat off the line most every time in my '69 Z/28, usually be behind by two-three car lengths, I'd hit third the same time they were hitting fourth, make up what I was behind and pull a half to a car length ahead. I ran a Mustang one night that had no clue what a Z/28 was, he asked what engine I was running and I said 302 SBC and he wanted to run. I worked him over pretty good, we got back to to the BBQ and he jumped out of his car screaming "that's no small block, you've got a big block in there!", I popped the hood and let him take a look, all he could say was "Damn, it is a small block".
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Old 10-09-2011, 07:40 PM   #82
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I'm not sure what you are referencing when you say it knocked pretty heavily when all the oil was topside....It can't be the valvetrain....You do know that the 302 had solid lifters don't you?
I've ran my 302 to 7,000 rpm many many times, never had an oil issue.
Tim is that you ! If not I have never ridden with you. He would not let off the throttle and lost oil pressure and the rods started knocking , not the valve train . I was a mechanic for 25 years and was ASE certified and really enjoyed it ! If that helps you any !
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Old 10-09-2011, 07:42 PM   #83
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By the way Tim passed away 5 years ago , God rest his soul . Just giving you memories , thats all .
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Old 10-11-2011, 11:07 AM   #84
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let's not forget about gearing.
The Z28 had 4.11s, which was part of the reason it performed as well as it did.
If you went with a 396/375 you could probably go down to 3.45s and still have similiar or better performance------and not be tachin' at 4000rpms on the highway.
I had a '87 IROC TPI 5 spd. It would run the 1/4 at about 15.1 secs which is not too far off what the Z28 would do, except the '69 Z was trapping at about 11 mph faster!
The biggest negative of the '60s perfomance cars was their tire technology.
Put some modern performance or drag radials on the '60s cars and you will see times commensurate with their bhp.
The second biggest negative is the obvious lack of overdrive transmissions.
If I had my choice for a first gen I'd go small block in the 350cu. range built to around 350hp and run 3.45 gears.
I don't think the first gen Z28 was a great daily driver. Just way too much gear.
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Old 10-11-2011, 12:14 PM   #85
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let's not forget about gearing.
The Z28 had 4.11s, which was part of the reason it performed as well as it did.
If you went with a 396/375 you could probably go down to 3.45s and still have similiar or better performance------and not be tachin' at 4000rpms on the highway.
I had a '87 IROC TPI 5 spd. It would run the 1/4 at about 15.1 secs which is not too far off what the Z28 would do, except the '69 Z was trapping at about 11 mph faster!
The biggest negative of the '60s perfomance cars was their tire technology.
Put some modern performance or drag radials on the '60s cars and you will see times commensurate with their bhp.
The second biggest negative is the obvious lack of overdrive transmissions.
If I had my choice for a first gen I'd go small block in the 350cu. range built to around 350hp and run 3.45 gears.
I don't think the first gen Z28 was a great daily driver. Just way too much gear.
Go back and read Camaro history, 4.11 was NOT the standard rear ratio for Z/28s, they came standard with 3.73 rear gears. You could OPTIONALLY install 4.10 (NOT 4.11), 4.56, or 4.88 as has been stated earlier in this thread. The '69 Z/28 I bought new in '69 had a 3.73 rear gear, I drove comfortably on the highway at around 3k RPM.
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