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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

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Old 09-26-2011, 04:19 PM   #1
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Z28.x ??

I have been lurking in the Z28 threads for a while waiting for some hard info. Lots of interesting discussion but we may be a long ways from finding out whether or not the Z28 will even be built.

It was a good sign when Chevy changed the FI Camaro to ZL1. The Z28 had more play yet they put off using it. Still there is no for sure when and probably still an if.

What if the ZL1 kills on the tack and has all the car reviewers forgetting all about both the GT500 and the Boss? Who knows, it might. And if it does will Chevy still build the Z28? It may be some time before we know.

So what do we do until then to amuse ourselves? Get our hopes up over some small leaked tidbit of information? Get excited over pics of slightly strange ZL1 test mules?

We can do better. We already know the Camaro SS has a rigid chassis, good brakes, good weight distribution, IRS and an awesome LS engine. It is the perfect place to build a car in the Z28 spirit. So why don't we design our own version of the Z28 with existing parts and give it a name. How about Z28.5? We are not constricted by bean counters and silly regulations. We can build an even better track car that chevy can and probably for less money. So we are building most likely a Z28+.

So my proposal is this: We specify what an ideal Z28 build would look like and then we name it Z28.x. If we cannot come to an agreement we can boost several build versions and run a pool to see which is the most popular. we could also have two build versions, a practical Z28.5 with a cap of say $42K (Base Boss price) with a 1 SS base and another ultimate Z28.75 version with a $55K (or $?) cap.

I know some are going to say the Z28 at the same price point will be worth more. True, but we can have the Z28.x now and we can remove most of the Z28.x parts before we trade our Camaro in for a real Z28 and recoup some of that money. That is if Chevy builds it and it is good.

Do it yourselfers can save big money, but for arguments sake here we should include installation fees to fairly represent the cost of a build. Still, some items will be DIY. If you are a true Z28er you don't mind getting your hands dirty.

Then once we have agreement we can look around Camaro5 and nominate builds for consideration. Each nomination can have a poll to determine if the build fits one of our build categories. Then once approved the owner can put on Z28.x lettering or badges without any repercussions here. Or not. If someone does use the Z28.x name without Z28 Forum approval we gently post some reminders in their threads.

Chevy meanwhile can build themselves a Z28.5 and see how it stacks up against the real thing if the real thing is a go. Who knows, Ford may want try this too. Their target: Beat it.

Sound crazy?

Approved Z28.x builds:

- None so far

I Would also like to nominate Doc's car as having the true Z28 spirit.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45165

In the next Post I will start it off with my idea of a Z28.5 build.
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Old 09-26-2011, 04:21 PM   #2
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Z28.5 Build

My Z28.5 Build Goals
- 400+ RWHP
- Good suspension control
- No Wheel hop
- No Understeer
- reduce unsprung weight
- Don't break the bank

Camaro 1SS 6 Speed Manual $31,900 (For a Z28.5 build what else do we need?)
- (Let's hope you have the negotiation skills to buy the car for list including tax and tags)

Power:

- Long Tubes, High Flow Cats - $1,200
- LT and Cat Install - $350
- Axle backs muffler - (DIY) $450
- CAI - (DIY) $400
- Tune - $500

Suspension:

- Cradle and Differential Bushings - $300
- Toe Rods - $250
- Trailing Arms - $270
- Adjustable sway bar with end links $700
- Adjustable Coil Overs - $1600
- Suspension upgrade installation and Performance alignment - $900

Tires and wheels:

- Reasonably Economical 18 inch lightweight wheels $1,500
- 275 Hi Po tires all the way around $1,500

Brakes:

- High performance Brake pads (DIY) $175
- Reinforced brake lines (DIY) $75

Total: $42,070

Z28.5 wish list - - Light weight rotors (DIY) $1,500 (over budget :( )
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Old 09-26-2011, 05:18 PM   #3
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Camaro Z28 Forum - Z28 Specific Topics
ZL1-LSA-MR+LS7+Pedders Coilovers = Z28

Welcome to the Z/28 forum.

We're just playing the waiting game.
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Old 09-26-2011, 06:24 PM   #4
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Old 09-26-2011, 06:26 PM   #5
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The "Pedders" thread has beat this bedraggled dog to death...

Your examples, while interesting, leave out one crucial element...actually TWO...labor and OEM warranty. You see, if done by GM on the line, labor = $0, and the warranty is included.

As "confirmed" as being "in the ballpark" by Number 3, elsewhere on this sub-Site:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=149090&page=2

1SS + LS7 (wet) + FE4 + ZL1's forged wheels/tires/HD driveline = "low (mid) $40s"...better power-to-weight than Base BOSS, by a goodly amount, with all components now/soon "on the OEM shelf" and, therefore, certified/validated and, therefore, GM-buildable. Add ZL1 splitter/spoiler, which will be aero-correct and required.

SuperZEE: All the above + ZL1 brakes/coolers, 2-piece rotors, extractor/ramair hood = BOSS LS = Z/28 + $4,995; MR (as option) = ?

No need to go to ZL1 money ($55ish); call GMPP/Pratt & Miller/LPE/Katech etc. for "more", if a Z/28 cum SSX is what you seek.
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Old 09-26-2011, 08:34 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WYKOFF69Z View Post
Camaro Z28 Forum - Z28 Specific Topics
ZL1-LSA-MR+LS7+Pedders Coilovers = Z28

Welcome to the Z/28 forum.

We're just playing the waiting game.
Just trying to pass the time. Read that thread. No speculation here about the alleged Z28.
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Old 09-26-2011, 08:44 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
The "Pedders" thread has beat this bedraggled dog to death...

Your examples, while interesting, leave out one crucial element...actually TWO...labor and OEM warranty. You see, if done by GM on the line, labor = $0, and the warranty is included.

As "confirmed" as being "in the ballpark" by Number 3, elsewhere on this sub-Site:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=149090&page=2

1SS + LS7 (wet) + FE4 + ZL1's forged wheels/tires/HD driveline = "low (mid) $40s"...better power-to-weight than Base BOSS, by a goodly amount, with all components now/soon "on the OEM shelf" and, therefore, certified/validated and, therefore, GM-buildable. Add ZL1 splitter/spoiler, which will be aero-correct and required.

SuperZEE: All the above + ZL1 brakes/coolers, 2-piece rotors, extractor/ramair hood = BOSS LS = Z/28 + $4,995; MR (as option) = ?

No need to go to ZL1 money ($55ish); call GMPP/Pratt & Miller/LPE/Katech etc. for "more", if a Z/28 cum SSX is what you seek.
I am not speculating about anything. Just stirring the pot about what can be done right now.

Warranty? Will we be happy leaving our Z28s stock? If we discard the tune my Z28.5 keeps the warranty intact. And the parts have their own warranty.

So you are saying the Z28 is confirmed?
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Old 09-27-2011, 08:18 AM   #8
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In MY mind (?!), it's pretty clear-cut...

In GM's mind, not so...yet...

Stay tuned...
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Old 09-27-2011, 01:17 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraxum View Post
My Z28.5 Build Goals
- 400+ RWHP
- Good suspension control
- No Wheel hop
- No Understeer
- reduce unsprung weight
- Don't break the bank

Camaro 1SS 6 Speed Manual $31,900 (For a Z28.5 build what else do we need?)
- (Let's hope you have the negotiation skills to buy the car for list including tax and tags)

Power:

- Long Tubes, High Flow Cats - $1,200
- LT and Cat Install - $350
- Axle backs muffler - (DIY) $450
- CAI - (DIY) $400
- Tune - $500

Suspension:

- Cradle and Differential Bushings - $300
- Toe Rods - $250
- Trailing Arms - $270
- Adjustable sway bar with end links $700
- Adjustable Coil Overs - $1600
- Suspension upgrade installation and Performance alignment - $900

Tires and wheels:

- Reasonably Economical 18 inch lightweight wheels $1,500
- 275 Hi Po tires all the way around $1,500

Brakes:

- High performance Brake pads (DIY) $175
- Reinforced brake lines (DIY) $75

Total: $42,070

Z28.5 wish list - - Light weight rotors (DIY) $1,500 (over budget :( )
I see 2 problems. First I think 18" wheels will not fit over the SS brembos, and 2nd your plan doesn't account for the LS3's low red line.

Now other then these I think its a solid plan and fixing the 2 problems is not that difficult nor that costly. To fix problem 1 I think we just need to get 19" wheels and problem 2 we just buy a GMPP create LS7 and sell the LS3 that comes in the SS. This would most likely bring the cost to around $45,500.
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Old 09-27-2011, 02:50 PM   #10
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I see 2 problems. First I think 18" wheels will not fit over the SS brembos, and 2nd your plan doesn't account for the LS3's low red line.

Now other then these I think its a solid plan and fixing the 2 problems is not that difficult nor that costly. To fix problem 1 I think we just need to get 19" wheels and problem 2 we just buy a GMPP create LS7 and sell the LS3 that comes in the SS. This would most likely bring the cost to around $45,500.
Get rid of the roller skates on the front and some 18s just fit fine. I like the LS7 but as been much discussed here we may have seen the last of it in the Z06.

The full bolton LS3 comes pretty close to stock LS7 power at say 485 crank HP.

You would also have to add in the install costs so your proposal would better fit the Z28.75.

Z28.5 $42,000
LS7 crate +$13,000
Install + $2,000 (can it be done for this much?)
LS3 sale - $4,000
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$53,000 = Z28.75

You would still want to keep the bolt-on parts to keep the LS7 well ahead of the LS3.


An awesome spirit of Z28 no doubt would be the result.
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Old 09-27-2011, 02:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
In MY mind (?!), it's pretty clear-cut...

In GM's mind, not so...yet...

Stay tuned...
I can't wait. I want it now. So that is why I am trying to take matters into our own hands.

To me if is still the question.
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Old 09-27-2011, 03:21 PM   #12
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The Wixom wildcard...

LS7s once accounted for roughly 9000 units in the Z06...which has shrunk to barely 1000. If Camaro utilizes the LS7 in a Z/28, there's two circumstances at play:

1) Potential to match the best year of Z06 production, #-wise, which...

2) In and of itself, kept Wixom hummin'...

Don't order the tombstone for Wixom/LS7 just yet...

It's ALL about "number$"...
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Old 09-27-2011, 05:46 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
The Wixom wildcard...

LS7s once accounted for roughly 9000 units in the Z06...which has shrunk to barely 1000. If Camaro utilizes the LS7 in a Z/28, there's two circumstances at play:

1) Potential to match the best year of Z06 production, #-wise, which...

2) In and of itself, kept Wixom hummin'...

Don't order the tombstone for Wixom/LS7 just yet...

It's ALL about "number$"...
I hope it happens.....

If it does I will have to sell my almost a Z28 and get on board. In the mean time I do not think I am missing all that much. Next wheels and tires....
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Old 09-28-2011, 12:12 PM   #14
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Get rid of the roller skates on the front and some 18s just fit fine. I like the LS7 but as been much discussed here we may have seen the last of it in the Z06.

The full bolton LS3 comes pretty close to stock LS7 power at say 485 crank HP.

You would also have to add in the install costs so your proposal would better fit the Z28.75.

Z28.5 $42,000
LS7 crate +$13,000
Install + $2,000 (can it be done for this much?)
LS3 sale - $4,000
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$53,000 = Z28.75

You would still want to keep the bolt-on parts to keep the LS7 well ahead of the LS3.


An awesome spirit of Z28 no doubt would be the result.
Its not the HP numbers I am looking at, its the higher revs with the LS7. Higher revs mean better cornering times which is what wins road races.

Also if my memory serves me correctly the LS7 swap in the Camaro is fairly simple (There is a video of the swap being done on the SEMA COPO Camaro).

While we could bring the Numbers of the LS3 up to match the LS7, what would be that cost?
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Old 09-28-2011, 04:08 PM   #15
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Its not the HP numbers I am looking at, its the higher revs with the LS7. Higher revs mean better cornering times which is what wins road races.

Also if my memory serves me correctly the LS7 swap in the Camaro is fairly simple (There is a video of the swap being done on the SEMA COPO Camaro).

While we could bring the Numbers of the LS3 up to match the LS7, what would be that cost?
Absolutely, I'd take the higher revs! While HP and TQ are important, I think you need the revs to complete the package.
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Old 09-28-2011, 04:24 PM   #16
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Old 09-28-2011, 09:14 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blizzard View Post
Its not the HP numbers I am looking at, its the higher revs with the LS7. Higher revs mean better cornering times which is what wins road races.

Also if my memory serves me correctly the LS7 swap in the Camaro is fairly simple (There is a video of the swap being done on the SEMA COPO Camaro).

While we could bring the Numbers of the LS3 up to match the LS7, what would be that cost?
Higher revs means better cornering times? Depending on how the power is spread out you can possibly avoid a gear shift, but revs make you faster through the corners?

Swapping the LS7 into the Camaro does not look all that bad. But will someone do it for you for less than $2,000? I am not sure, I guessed at that number. You do have to address the dry sump somehow.

With a better valve train you can raise the rev limit of the LS3 from 6,600 to 6,800 but no word on long term durability.

Assuming a cammed and bolton LS3 can easily get to 450 RWP (and some more) the difference versus the LS7 is about 50 to 75 RWHP. See this article where a cammed LS7 Camaro with LTs pushed 502 RWHP. That 502 seems a little low to me.

The LS7 is superior to the LS3 agreed. But worth the extra $10K+ as a swap?
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Old 09-28-2011, 09:24 PM   #18
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Absolutely, I'd take the higher revs! While HP and TQ are important, I think you need the revs to complete the package.
Clyde
As a swap for $10K+? A centrifugal supercharger on an LS3 can wipe out an LS7 for less money while adding only about 75 pounds with very little heat soak. Who needs revs with 600 RWHP?

But of course FI is not in the spirit of Z28.

I think 400-450 LS3 RWHP is plenty for a street car with weekend track use in mind. Of course I may be in the minority.
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