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Old 10-12-2011, 08:54 AM   #126
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A 475 hp Gen-5 "LT1" SBC making more power than a 505 hp LS7?! Huh?

Boosting an LS7: For those so inclined, Edelbrock seems to be doing a fine job with their E-Force kit, and "word on the street" is good among the Vette-set. Knowing your limits, and staying within them, is a good thing...

But "boost" is not something the diehard ZEE-fan seems to be seeking...give us a well-tuned n/a revver!...or we'd be all over the ZL1 ...
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Old 10-12-2011, 08:58 AM   #127
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Yes, we offer a 500+ hp LT1 as well.. good heads and 408 cubic inches will do that...

The Ls7 is not a good choice for an engine due to the material of the sleeves... they are prone to cracking.. other than that it would be a great choice but when you can lose a cylinder simply due to detonation.. its a drawback
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Old 10-12-2011, 09:10 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
A 475 hp Gen-5 "LT1" SBC making more power than a 505 hp LS7?! Huh?

Boosting an LS7: For those so inclined, Edelbrock seems to be doing a fine job with their E-Force kit, and "word on the street" is good among the Vette-set. Knowing your limits, and staying within them, is a good thing...

But "boost" is not something the diehard ZEE-fan seems to be seeking...give us a well-tuned n/a revver!...or we'd be all over the ZL1 ...
a 5.5L making 475, but why are we stuck on the base vette engine? thought I made it clear in previous posts that it should still be the z06 equivalent. meaning if the z06 gets a 6.2 (est. 600hp) then that's what the Z28 should get. maybe "detuned" 570hp.

yes about edelbrock. . .but how much boost are they pushing? 5-8 psi? if I were to ever put FI on I wouldn't push boost so little. go big or go home. still not a fan of the thin walls on the ls7 and never will be. 6.2 or less with many options to bore out or FI.
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Old 10-12-2011, 10:42 AM   #129
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Yes, we offer a 500+ hp LT1 as well..
The "LT1" I mention is the supposed GM designation for the next-Gen SBC, NOT to be confused (which it no doubt is/will be...) with the '92-'97 versions previously enjoyed by Y-F-B-bodies...

(BTW, we built a Vortech-'charged 383 LT1 with AFR heads that made 500rwhp...in a pump-gas street-driven '95 Formula...in 1996)

As to boost (again?!) on LS7s, I DID state, "Knowing your limits, and staying within them, is a good thing..."

This expectation of an n/a DI 6.2 making "estimated 600 hp": In most other engine application updates, DI optimistically adds 10-20% in OEM-warranted circumstances, while improving mpg and emissions. With 436 hp, the Vette's rating for an LS3 with dual-mode exhaust, 20% will get you to about 525...10% will get you to 480...a very l-o-n-g way from 600, without forced induction...
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Old 10-13-2011, 03:43 AM   #130
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The "LT1" I mention is the supposed GM designation for the next-Gen SBC, NOT to be confused (which it no doubt is/will be...) with the '92-'97 versions previously enjoyed by Y-F-B-bodies...

(BTW, we built a Vortech-'charged 383 LT1 with AFR heads that made 500rwhp...in a pump-gas street-driven '95 Formula...in 1996)

As to boost (again?!) on LS7s, I DID state, "Knowing your limits, and staying within them, is a good thing..."

This expectation of an n/a DI 6.2 making "estimated 600 hp": In most other engine application updates, DI optimistically adds 10-20% in OEM-warranted circumstances, while improving mpg and emissions. With 436 hp, the Vette's rating for an LS3 with dual-mode exhaust, 20% will get you to about 525...10% will get you to 480...a very l-o-n-g way from 600, without forced induction...
I'm sorry my math was off. 7.0 is closer to 580 for 15% (LLT vs LY7). with a 6.2 would be 501. which both had VVT on select models. VVT will net a little more increase.

I would still take a 6.2 pushing 501+ hp over the ls7. would net better mileage (better for racing more laps) and take kinder to mods. the argument for the ls7 is getting weaker since a vette mule is running around with presumably the Gen 5 v8 but C6 body on a C7 frame.
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Old 10-13-2011, 08:26 AM   #131
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The problem with DI, and the attendant development (increased c.r. etc.) is the final results are NOT mod-friendly... Witness the LLT. STILL no FI aftermarket apps (save STS) in wide usage because the BoschBox in NOT readily mod-able. Yes, a piggyback tune is a possibility, but the LLT is NOT nearly as mod-friendly as the LS...because a deviance too far in tuning in any direction, with high static compression, results in expen$ive paperweights...

Do NOT expect easy modding of the coming Gen-5 SBC...think LLT "locked-box"...
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Old 10-13-2011, 08:51 AM   #132
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(BTW, we built a Vortech-'charged 383 LT1 with AFR heads that made 500rwhp...in a pump-gas street-driven '95 Formula...in 1996)
Ours is n/a on 91 octane but yeah has nothing to do with this..LOL
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Old 10-13-2011, 09:37 AM   #133
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The problem with DI, and the attendant development (increased c.r. etc.) is the final results are NOT mod-friendly... Witness the LLT. STILL no FI aftermarket apps (save STS) in wide usage because the BoschBox in NOT readily mod-able. Yes, a piggyback tune is a possibility, but the LLT is NOT nearly as mod-friendly as the LS...because a deviance too far in tuning in any direction, with high static compression, results in expen$ive paperweights...

Do NOT expect easy modding of the coming Gen-5 SBC...think LLT "locked-box"...


there will always be a learning curve, and this 2 shall pass. I Expect simple modding to take well to it. LT headers, a cam etc. and eventually some good uncanned tunes.
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Old 10-13-2011, 10:03 AM   #134
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there will always be a learning curve, and this 2 shall pass. I Expect simple modding to take well to it. LT headers, a cam etc. and eventually some good uncanned tunes.
The LLT has been around in the CTS longer than the Camaro...about 4-years worth...and STILL no one has properly broken into the BoschBox.

IF that sort of "sealed" ECM technology is used on the next-Gen SBC, the plethora of mods now happening to the LS may NOT arrive, without GM sanction.
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Old 10-13-2011, 11:07 AM   #135
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The LLT has been around in the CTS longer than the Camaro...about 4-years worth...and STILL no one has properly broken into the BoschBox.

IF that sort of "sealed" ECM technology is used on the next-Gen SBC, the plethora of mods now happening to the LS may NOT arrive, without GM sanction.
all we need is a good hacker to take notice, or a replacement ECM to arrive. the LLT probably (speculating) isn't as focused on as a more main stream performance engine would be. I am not worried about such a thing for the next gen vette will push it into the lime light for modifying. More aftermarket tuners will be focused on modifying a v-8 vette vs a v-6 cts/camaro.


just a heads up I will be headed back state side soon. So all this talk about a Gen V motor being a better choice from me will probably end soon enough. meaning you will win the argument by default. I have little time to get on forums when I have more important things to be doing; like working ,riding my bike, selling a house and family. but I will still hold the same belief and feeling about a Gen V v8 in a z28. Timing couldn't be so close. if the ZL1 was out now and we started seeing z28 test mules I would consed to your thought process, but timing seems to be more on my side right now. at least how I view it. once my credit card debt is paid and truck paid off I will then have funds to purchase a Z28 (if already released or about to be released). My love for this car is too much to pass it up even with the thin walled ls7. I know GM will make it a screamer on the track, and that's all I really want.

until then I enjoy talking all things Z and arguing points with limited knowledge of things to come.
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Old 10-13-2011, 12:51 PM   #136
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Im not really sure why everyone is hating on the ls7 saying that it isnt durable. The ls7 is a very durable engine with people tracking the ls7 overy week with out any problems. The most known problem , at least on the vette forums, are a few of them dropping valves. And to have a handful of motors have an issue out of thousands is pretty decent. The only reason we really hear about it is because its a 70k car. People have been throwing FI on the ls7 for years with out issues. As long as you stay with in its means you shouldnt have an issue just like any other motor out there. Its just like you dont go throwing 12psi into a stock lt1 and expect it to last forever running it at the track every night. Dont skimp on the tune and have someone that knows what there doing on an ls7. And heritage wise I believe the LS7 would foot the bill as a high reving high horsepower v8 just like the old DZ motor
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Old 10-13-2011, 01:08 PM   #137
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reason being is that if you have an issue and get some detonation.. it could cost you the block where an other engine would not crack a sleeve over it.. its a good engine but the sleeve material choice was perhaps not the best
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Old 10-13-2011, 02:16 PM   #138
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reason being is that if you have an issue and get some detonation.. it could cost you the block where an other engine would not crack a sleeve over it.. its a good engine but the sleeve material choice was perhaps not the best
To my knowledge, the above scenario is virtually limited to over-boosted and/or poorly-tuned examples, NOT those with a "factory tune" that haven't suffered "abuse". I have personally witnessed two LS7 failures...BOTH attributable to modding with improper "tuning"...

Anytime you go outside of GM's parameters, you venture into "uncharted waters"...at your peril...with ANY engine... There's more than a few blowed-up LS3s out there...
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Old 10-13-2011, 02:37 PM   #139
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You can put your money where ever you want... it makes no matter to me

the cracking issue is there... and yes ..... sometimes things like bad gas causes detonation... most cars run pump gas.... so detonation does happen.. .. its unsupported at the top and prone to cracking.. the severe cases using FI are splitting the sleeve top to bottom... but this is a typical crack....



as far as the LS3 losing the block its due the the piston coming apart and the rod taking out the cylinder wall more often than not and that is due to detonation as well..... which can be caused by bad gas...

yes there are risks when playing the game but there are more risks with some combinations than others... if you know there could be an issue then why mess with it.. relying things being pefect that you dont control like octane is not something we do
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Old 10-13-2011, 02:48 PM   #140
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say hello to someone that blew up an ls1 about 3 years ago now. hand held tuner and open headers don't mix well. detonated a piston and the rod destroyed the wall along with the crank and piston destroying all the channels. block un-salvageable.

Your point is you have to stay with in it's means. and my point is it's means are too tight. I want the option to bore out and get bigger later on. give me 500 hp in a 6.2 that I can bore and stroke later on when I decide to upgrade the internals. with the ls7 I'm limited drastically on my options. best base possible not best base right this second.

earliest I see a z28 hitting the streets is 1 year from the zl1. and that would give a GenV v-8 a good chance of being under the hood. since the vettes test mules are running around now.

the ls7 hasn't been extended for production, yet. which could mean a couple things. they extend it to put it into the z28, while the z06 gets upgraded to a new genV engine and built on the same line. they discontinue the ls7 and produce a GenV for the vette and a possible Z28. I see the last thing happening. a specialized z06 motor still being produced there pushing at least 550hp in the z06 but going off the last two generations the bump would be to 605 hp. so the 7.0 would still be around and the new 427 SBC would have DI and VVT.
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Old 10-13-2011, 02:51 PM   #141
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GM wants to make MONEY....
Traditions are lower on to totem pole these days.
No need for GM to make the car light or high revving like the 69.
They will slap some stickers on it like the 45th and SELL SELL SELL because you and I will BUY it because it says Z28...

IMHO Z28 will be a detuned ZL1 without mag ride.
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Old 10-13-2011, 03:00 PM   #142
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The sole, solitary reason to bring back a "true" Z/28 is as a streetable daily driver-able track car...PERIOD...

NO FORCED INDUCTION...PERIOD...

Light as possible, with the "necessities", without gingerbread or gold chain holders...PERIOD...

Ford "gets it"...witness the BOSS...in TWO flavors...

If it's gotta have an n/a Gen-6 over-475 hp DI, so be it...

If it's gotta have a boost-unfriendly LS7, so be it...

If it's gotta have MR, so be it...

But this car, known as and faithful to Z/28, is REQUIRED...

...and the sooner, the better...

There's no QUIT for this dawg! And there shouldn't be for GM/Camaro...
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Old 10-13-2011, 03:54 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
The sole, solitary reason to bring back a "true" Z/28 is as a streetable daily driver-able track car...PERIOD...

NO FORCED INDUCTION...PERIOD...

Light as possible, with the "necessities", without gingerbread or gold chain holders...PERIOD...

Ford "gets it"...witness the BOSS...in TWO flavors...

If it's gotta have an n/a Gen-6 over-475 hp DI, so be it...

If it's gotta have a boost-unfriendly LS7, so be it...

If it's gotta have MR, so be it...

But this car, known as and faithful to Z/28, is REQUIRED...

...and the sooner, the better...

There's no QUIT for this dawg! And there shouldn't be for GM/Camaro...
Well said!
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Old 10-13-2011, 06:31 PM   #144
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I think we've seen the Z28 test mule the "ZL1 Track" car. Look real close and notice the changes from the ZL1 that are not part of the ZL1: induction hood(not typical for FI), no bottom aero, possible rear brake cooling, etc.
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Old 10-13-2011, 09:23 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
The problem with DI, and the attendant development (increased c.r. etc.) is the final results are NOT mod-friendly... Witness the LLT. STILL no FI aftermarket apps (save STS) in wide usage because the BoschBox in NOT readily mod-able. Yes, a piggyback tune is a possibility, but the LLT is NOT nearly as mod-friendly as the LS...because a deviance too far in tuning in any direction, with high static compression, results in expen$ive paperweights...

Do NOT expect easy modding of the coming Gen-5 SBC...think LLT "locked-box"...
I think that is more of a market problem than a technical problem. For the most part, Cadillac owners (or Traverse owners or V6 Camaro owners or anyone else that owns an LLT) typically don't mod their cars. Yes, there are some but they represent a very small portion of the community.

Conversely, Camaro SS and Corvette owners kinda have a reputation for at least throwing some light mods on their car, like intake exhaust & tune.

Yeah, it might be harder to crack the ECU in the V6, in the same way its harder to get malware into a Mac ... but at the same time, there is way more money to be made if you can hack a PC, or in this case ... a V8, so why bother with the little guy?
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don't believe a thing you read about the next gen Camaro -- as history has proven time and time again:

WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT FUTURE PRODUCT PLANS PERIOD FbodFather
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:04 AM   #146
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I think we've seen the Z28 test mule the "ZL1 Track" car. Look real close and notice the changes from the ZL1 that are not part of the ZL1: induction hood(not typical for FI), no bottom aero, possible rear brake cooling, etc.
to me that car looks like it was wrecked and stuck back together. you might be right but that's just what it looks like to me.
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Old 10-14-2011, 12:55 PM   #147
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This dawg has been run through the briars and the brambles...

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149090

Defined as either a 1SS with selected ZL1 content OR a de-contented/re-engined ZL1, with superior power-to-weight compared to a BOSS (which means at least 475 hp, normally aspirated), and undergoing "parallel development" with the ZL1 as we speak (front-opening hood scoop on one "ZL1" mule; who sez all those ZL1 mules have MR?) is far from out of the question...

MY '13/'14/'15 still await the Gen-5 Camaro...so there's still time for Z/28 maturation...

Ah-Ha! that makes total sense!
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Old 10-14-2011, 06:09 PM   #148
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to me that car looks like it was wrecked and stuck back together. you might be right but that's just what it looks like to me.
Look "real" close. The hood is held on with pins(?) strange. Then notice the hood is very wavy almost like quickly made fiberglass. Now look at the "new" opening in the hood, if you look real close it looks like there is a hood under/inside the cheap looking outside hood.
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:41 PM   #149
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Z28 is probably not out 'til 2015..
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Old 10-23-2011, 09:28 PM   #150
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Build your own version of a Z/28. Personally, I don't give a rats ass about the branding, marketing, or labels. I just want a Camaro that handles well on road and track and has serious power without engine falling apart with a little bit of boost pushed into it or reving too high.
The first thing I expect to hear / read once the ZL1 hits market is how many grenaged engines are left in the scrap yard, when people start changing pulleys and adjusting tunes.
You want a bad ass Z/28? Pick up a used Camaro, scrap the LS3 and put in an "IRON" forged 427 LSX, with LSX-LS7 heads and some boost or put in a crate LSX-454 NA and call it a day and be happy.
Just make sure you're involved with the build, ask lot's of questions, have regular meetings to discuss the challenges and issues, and do lot's of research.
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