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Old 10-03-2011, 06:38 PM   #51
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Just my opinion, but with 9+% unemployment in this country, almost 1 in every 10 people, and probably actually higher, and a $30,000+ car, I think the sales are amazing. Even the upper middle class is holding onto their dollars, people are doing without many things, and even if they need a new car, they are settling for less. Lets see what happens to sales when we get this country back on track.

It is an amazing vehicle, even many Corvette owners have "traded down" to it. And even if they discontinue it... I got mine.
THIS! Just what I was thinking
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Old 10-03-2011, 07:05 PM   #52
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Camaro sells well because of its looks an performance, end of story. People want a good looking car, and it knocked the ball way out of the park on that. Add to that the base model V6 is one of the fastest brand new cars you can buy in its price range as well as a base model SS. Only things that keeps up with the LS for the price is the V6 mustangs (faster) and same with the SS and 5.0.
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Old 10-03-2011, 07:18 PM   #53
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Mopar or no car... unless its a chevy camaro
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Old 10-03-2011, 07:26 PM   #54
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Bob was wrong then... Back on topic, 7000 is great, if they keep up these numbers, the 5th Gen will be a very profitable and high volume seller at the end of its model life span. The profits will most likely attribute to the 6th Gen Camaro when it is released in 2014 and should prove to be very competitive with the next Mustang.
Im pretty sure....that you just spent an entire page arguing that these numbers are dismal..
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Old 10-03-2011, 08:41 PM   #55
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At this rate, the pony car will be dead in another year. Regardless of the numbers, the sales are stale... 6,900, 5000 and 3300? At least the Camaro incentives helped sustain sales for September, however, the long cold winter is approaching... There needs to be a change in the pony car lineup ASAP... The Camaro leading with 6,900 sales is awful... that is about 45% of where it should be. The muscle cars are dead, time to shed the dead skin and become something else...

Edit: And 47,000 Camaro's left unsold to date.. ugg....
Don't know if you actually looked at the data but if you compare the last three months of this year to the same months last year the sales of the camaro are significantly HIGHER this year. So... yeah... I think the Camaro will be just fine.
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Old 10-03-2011, 08:44 PM   #56
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Don't know if you actually looked at the data but if you compare the last three months of this year to the same months last year the sales of the camaro are significantly HIGHER this year. So... yeah... I think the Camaro will be just fine.
oh, didn't you know, it's because the 2011 camaro's are newer this year.

wait, wat?
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Old 10-03-2011, 08:49 PM   #57
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I just pulled out my Camaro book to see how modern day sales compared to the 1st gen. Pretty interesting numbers....and holy crap that was a ton of mustangs in 1967 - there must have been lots of happy teenage girls driving around

1967:
Camaro 201,134
Mustang: 442,686

1968
Camaro: 217,700
Mustang: 299,061

1969
Camaro: 193,986
Mustang: 293,000
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Old 10-03-2011, 08:58 PM   #58
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oh, didn't you know, it's because the 2011 camaro's are newer this year.

wait, wat?
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Old 10-03-2011, 09:10 PM   #59
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This thread just proved to me that charts and numbers where invented by people only to make the outcomes appear as they wish them to be. To be honest ,from an outsider looking in, that is in a totally different business, I can put sense to both sides of this argument. I guess in the end only time will tell the real story.
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Old 10-03-2011, 10:28 PM   #60
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Bottom line is that when I drive down the street 9 out of 10 people point and stare at my 2011 Camaro. When my buddy drives down the street in his 2011 Mustang GT 500 he might have 1 person look at him and usually it is some older guy that probably has been driving Mustangs for years. I mean everyone knows what the new Camaros look like. The Mustangs look terrible. I know many people that would never of got a sportscar until the Camaro came out. The Camaro is back and it is only going to get better and better. I'm just saying...
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Old 10-03-2011, 10:38 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by solo40oz View Post
I just pulled out my Camaro book to see how modern day sales compared to the 1st gen. Pretty interesting numbers....and holy crap that was a ton of mustangs in 1967 - there must have been lots of happy teenage girls driving around

1967:
Camaro 201,134
Mustang: 442,686

1968
Camaro: 217,700
Mustang: 299,061

1969
Camaro: 193,986
Mustang: 293,000
Those were the days before America fell in love with these...



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Old 10-04-2011, 06:31 AM   #62
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Wow, Corvette sold 900+. That's pretty good. As for Camaro, that is impressive. Consider the current economic outlook being gloomy, it shows that the pony car segment has a strong following. Second, the basic steady upward trend is also encouraging, but one does have to wonder how long that can last. Third, I do expect Mustang to drop as we get closer to the cutoff between the current generation and the 2014 next gen.

Charger is worrisome. There doesn't seem to be enough following for their product line.
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:22 AM   #63
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Wow, Corvette sold 900+. That's pretty good. As for Camaro, that is impressive. Consider the current economic outlook being gloomy, it shows that the pony car segment has a strong following. Second, the basic steady upward trend is also encouraging, but one does have to wonder how long that can last. Third, I do expect Mustang to drop as we get closer to the cutoff between the current generation and the 2014 next gen.

Charger is worrisome. There doesn't seem to be enough following for their product line.
There would be if they could do 3 things, bring performance up to par with Camaro/Mustang in all 3 trims, keep the prices where they are or lower them for the top trim, increase mileage in bottom trim. I would have bought the Challenger if the price/performance ratio had been anywhere near the Camaro SS. I had already fallen in love with the 1970 Cuda, and since I figured I wouldn't get my hands on one of those for decades, the 2008 Challenger was the next best thing. So I started saving up for that, but then I started researching the competition and the Camaro won hands down. I started to love the styling after the performance specs already won me over. And to be honest, I feel like there have to be a lot of people out there with similar stories that were pulled away from other cars that they'd typically have bought. That could've been the Challenger's story, but GM did it right the first time. Grant it, at the time the Mustang GT was only pushing an anemic 300 HP motor so even with the weight, the Challenger RT's 350 HP (for 2009 model) engine could beat the Mustang. But the Camaro's 426 HP and 200 lbs less weight was too strong of a selling point for me. Then it came to a close fight between the Mustang and Camaro for 2011, but looks won me over even though the Mustang's solid rear axle reduces drive train loss and the car is lighter, the Camaro just looks better in my opinion, and probably handles much better for everyday driving too.
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Old 10-04-2011, 11:23 AM   #64
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If the segement is dying, why is it on an upward trend vs a year ago?
Since the chart only really offers a look from August 2010 to September 2011, it doesn't really give an overall good picture of what the overall trend really is. August 2010 was pretty much the beginning of the worst sales months in the history of the pony car. After the sales leading Camaro started only pushing 5000 units, of course a new direction has to be taken. The V6 was pushed hard this year for the Camaro and V6's in general are in demand along with incentives for all three. Lets roll the chart back to April 2009 and watch the lines, If I really wanted to bend the numbers in a products favor, I would just seek out a different comparison ie Sept '10 vs. Sept '11, last month vs. this month. It is good that the current yearly trend from last fall is up, but this is natural because of the summer sales in which these cars are sometimes 40% stronger. If we started in April 2011, the sales would obviously reflect a different story. It would show that these pony cars are trending down but, numbers grown increasing smaller year after year...

As far as the Challenger outselling the Mustang, it could be possible. Dodge only produces about 40,000 Challengers a year, Ford produces about 70,000. Less product will return fewer sales, but I don't think Dodge cares about Ford's Mustang since I believe Dodge is making more profit per vehicle than Ford is. I'm sure Dodge would love to outsell Ford but if they are only producing half of what Ford does, does it seem like they care? I think at this point in the Mustang and Challengers life, total sales become less important and total profit becomes the focus. Minimizing waste such as overproduction and capitalizing on decreased production cost during a time when sales are not good. This is good business, stretching a product and matching production to sales as accurately as possible. This is currently not being done at Chevrolet because they are not in the same position as Ford or Dodge. The product is still new but is starting to age... and the product was released after the initial excitement of pony cars started to die down.. Irony would have us looking back to the 1967 Camaro as the 5th Gens rise and fall almost mirrors the originals year over year...

Every market grows old, this is reality... Even the mighty originals saw sales plummet after the wave broke... Every product has a high water mark, usually the first year or two and then, sales recess... At the current 3 year trend of these cars, they won't be very strong next year, in fact.. this winter will likely show a major decrease similar or more extreme than last years.

Of course I always look to the past, because it gives me a glimpse of the future. Those who ignore the past are bound to repeat it...

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Old 10-04-2011, 11:45 AM   #65
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Since the chart only really offers a look from August 2010 to September 2011, it doesn't really give an overall good picture of what the overall trend really is....
Here comes trend from 2009
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Old 10-04-2011, 11:54 AM   #66
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Any numbers on breakdown by model type 1LT, 2LT 1SS, 2SS
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Old 10-04-2011, 11:59 AM   #67
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Old 10-04-2011, 12:18 PM   #68
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Here comes trend from 2009
If these cars can put in a stronger winter this year and push another big spring, the Mustang and Camaro can trend back up to 2009 numbers. It will be extremely difficult for the Camaro to produce numbers similar to 2009 year long. Hopefully the Mustang's redesign looks like the 2009 concept and attracts more sales this year.. We will see it in November...

The Challenger is the only one really making progress, although 3000 a month sounds bad, they are making more profit per unit than the other two. I can almost bet that their losses are just as small as Fords.

Thanks for putting that together, looks like about 2-4% decrease on a new model and a redesign model over the last 2 years. Not completely devastating, but the first two years are the strong sales period, an eventual loss is inevitable. Similar to the '05, sales decreased in a similar fashion then bottomed out after 5 years. I don't expect the Mustang to sell very well through the winter, especially when people see the 2013 car next month.

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Old 10-04-2011, 12:26 PM   #69
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The timing of the new generation of muscle cars couldn't have been better except that the economy tanked...Had the economy stayed healthy all the retiring baby boomers that were teens in golden years of muscle cars would be buying these as thier retirement toys. I came from a generation of teens driving 60's-mid 70's Chevy, Mopar muscle cars when they first became "classic" cars in the late 80's and they were the envy all those that didn't have one. The muscle car is a niche just like the ricer, euro sport and the high-end exotic sports car. If those charts say anything, it is that the muscle car currently enjoys a larger portion than the rest of unpractical car niches. As far as the muscle cars dying...making it front-wheel drive, lightweight and sticking a 4 cyl turbo will be the death of it. If it doesn't have a rearwheel V8 (V6 bare minimum) it is something other than a muscle car regardless of the skin/nameplate it is wearing or how fast it goes or how well it handles.
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Old 10-04-2011, 12:37 PM   #70
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If these cars can put in a stronger winter this year and push another big spring, the Mustang and Camaro can trend back up to 2009 numbers. It will be extremely difficult for the Camaro to produce numbers similar to 2009 year long. Hopefully the Mustang's redesign looks like the 2009 concept and attracts more sales this year.. We will see it in November...

The Challenger is the only one really making progress, although 3000 a month sounds bad, they are making more profit per unit than the other two. I can almost bet that their losses are just as small as Fords.
How are you so sure that Dodge is making more money than Chevy or Ford? The way I see it, labour costs are going to be nearly identical between the Camaro & Challenger, since they're built less than an hour away from each other. Mechanically, they are very similar so there isn't going to be much difference there. They're priced pretty much the same throughout the lineup (except for the low volume SRT8s which currently have no competitor). However, the Camaro has volume on its side to decrease the per unit cost. So where is the extra profit for the Challenger coming from?
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Old 10-04-2011, 12:56 PM   #71
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How are you so sure that Dodge is making more money than Chevy or Ford? The way I see it, labour costs are going to be nearly identical between the Camaro & Challenger, since they're built less than an hour away from each other. Mechanically, they are very similar so there isn't going to be much difference there. They're priced pretty much the same throughout the lineup (except for the low volume SRT8s which currently have no competitor). However, the Camaro has volume on its side to decrease the per unit cost. So where is the extra profit for the Challenger coming from?
When a product is new, the cost to produce the car is at its peak. This figures in the cost of parts, labor, marketing and in most cases delivery. Over the lifespan of a vehicle, prices begin to come down on parts, shifts are cut to meet real demand and advertising is done on the streets and not on the TV or magazines. The older the car is, the less it cost to produce it unless new hardware is added... The major reason Dodge and Ford are maximizing profits is because they are actually producing what the market is buying and do not have overflow in dealer lots. Ford produced 76,000 Mustangs last year and sold 73,000 and change, Dodge produced 45,000 and pretty much sold every single unit... In Chevrolet's first Camaro MY, they produced 129,000 Camaros and sold about 98,000, year two was just as bad and this year should be a little better. This results in unneeded parts cost, labor cost and delivery cost on cars that will eventually have to be sold, perhaps after the MY, with incentives or.. in the worst case scenario, 47,000 cars will sit on lots, comprised of 2010s, 2011s and 2012s.

Also, don't forget inflation, cars were cheaper to make in 2004 and 2007 then they were to produce in 2009. An economic disaster would have seen prices on almost everything increase.. You can see this in almost every product throughout the years.

There is nothing wrong with mass production, but when sales don't amass to that number.. then there are bound to be losses..


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The timing of the new generation of muscle cars couldn't have been better except that the economy tanked...Had the economy stayed healthy all the retiring baby boomers that were teens in golden years of muscle cars would be buying these as thier retirement toys.
This statement is the truest of all in this thread, the economy is always the enemy of cars of this nature. It was in fact the economy that killed the dinosaurs in the 60s and 70s and kept them dead for 30 years. Like I said, if the Camaro would have been released in 2006, sales would have exceeded their initial 150,000 cars. Just like the original was victim to bad timing, so is its successor...

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Old 10-04-2011, 02:22 PM   #72
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Take a chill pill, "the pill." Who cares if the 5th Gen isn't selling as well as muscle cars used to? No shit, people aren't buying more impractical performance cars today as they were in the 60s-90s? Oh noes!!!

All of his marketing babble and attempts in trashing GM every chance he gets is largely irrelevant to most folks here, though I agree that it does provide a fair chunk of entertainment value as some others have mentioned. I'd say his Joker avatar is quite a good fit, except the entertainment here is more like the kind you get from a fat kid rolling down a hill. But hey, this is the internet. Whatever floats your boat, whatever tickles your pickle.

As far as the Camaro and its sales are concerned, it's interesting to see it still outsell the "new" Mustang, as it confirms the judgment of the segment consumers. I don't have anything against the Mustang really, it's a great car. I just like the Camaro a little better. I would love to see GM falling over themselves benchmarking the shit out of the new Mustang. What have I got to lose? And I highly doubt that the pony car market might be all but gone in the coming years as the pill says, although it would be a nice change of pace not having to see increasing numbers of Camaros every day, at least where I live. I'd prefer it not become as common as Mustangs to be honest.

I hope for the pill's sake that the newer new Mustang will be able to outsell the Camaro when it comes out. Otherwise it would make everything he says that much more hilarious.
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Old 10-04-2011, 05:38 PM   #73
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With the 2012 Camaro out sales should jump high again! Especially with the ZL1
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Old 10-04-2011, 06:25 PM   #74
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When a product is new, the cost to produce the car is at its peak. This figures in the cost of parts, labor, marketing and in most cases delivery. Over the lifespan of a vehicle, prices begin to come down on parts, shifts are cut to meet real demand and advertising is done on the streets and not on the TV or magazines. The older the car is, the less it cost to produce it unless new hardware is added... The major reason Dodge and Ford are maximizing profits is because they are actually producing what the market is buying and do not have overflow in dealer lots. Ford produced 76,000 Mustangs last year and sold 73,000 and change, Dodge produced 45,000 and pretty much sold every single unit... In Chevrolet's first Camaro MY, they produced 129,000 Camaros and sold about 98,000, year two was just as bad and this year should be a little better. This results in unneeded parts cost, labor cost and delivery cost on cars that will eventually have to be sold, perhaps after the MY, with incentives or.. in the worst case scenario, 47,000 cars will sit on lots, comprised of 2010s, 2011s and 2012s.
But that has no direct correlation to profit margins. It relates to incentives, but GM is at least competitive if not lower than Ford & Dodge there.


Although, I must admit ... I may be taking the wrong approach on this one. Afterall, you made the claim. It is your responsibility to back it up. But not with opinions, not guesses, not general statements. Facts & numbers. Afterall, to make a definitive claim like Dodge is making more money per Challenger than GM on the Camaro, or Ford on the Mustang, you must surely have numbers that, right? Because if you don't have something that shows that Dodge makes, I don't know, say $2,217 per Challenger (on average) while GM makes $1,812 off of Camaros, and Ford makes $1,994 on Mustangs you can't justifiably say one way or the other which is more profitable, can you? Sure, you could guess or speculate but without numbers you wouldn't know would you?


So since you clearly aren't pulling this out of thin air, show me the article or press release where the profit per vehicle on the Camaro, Mustang, and Challenger are broken down. If its from a respectable source, I will have no choice but to believe it.

Or, if you did all the number crunching yourself, show me how much the OEMs sell each car for, as well as how much it costs for them to build each one, and what the incentives package is for each one sold (and your sources for all this). I'll double check your numbers.
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Old 10-04-2011, 07:46 PM   #75
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Why is the Pill so disconnected with reality?

It doesn't take a mathematician to be able to tell that the pony car market is currently larger then it was in 2005, back then with only the Msutang it was something like 160,000 units a year and we are well above that point as we are already at 157,000 units and we have 2 months left in this year. I expect that in the next two months we will add about 30,000+ units to this total for an est. of 190,000 units. This makes the pony car market some 30,000 units larger then it was in 2005 and not to mention that the total auto market was larger then. So the market share that the pony car segment makes up is much bigger then it was in 2005. I do not know why the pill expects the pony car segment to be twice as large now then it was in 2005 when the total market volume is down by 1/3 compared to 2005 and with that in mind the total pony car market should actually be at 107,000 units so its going to be this year almost double what it should be. This also is only based on the traditional 3 not including the Hyundai Genesis coupe which is a competitor in this market segment, if you include its total volume year to date and you really blow the 2005 numbers out of the water.

So I can not figure out what it is that the pill is getting on about, I don't even think that he knows what he is going on at.

It just seems that he is bitter because the Mustang isn't the sales leader in this market segment, so instead of just admitting it he just rather make stuff up out of thin air.

Last edited by doc7000; 10-04-2011 at 08:02 PM.
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