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Old 10-14-2011, 06:16 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by radz28 View Post
I just watched this video for about the 100th time. Forgive me if I've missed any post prior to mine, but has anyone noticed the telemetry on the throttle and brakes? It looks to me that when on the brakes, the track and 'G indicator glow nice and a rich red. When there's no throttle or brake input, it's pretty much black, or a dark cobalt. When Mr. Link is on the gas, though, it's a nice rich green.

While it's crazy-easy for me to play a back-seat-driver, and while my direct experience with the 'Ring is embarassingly limited only to video games, it seems to me that there was a potential to lean on the gas more than he had, on the whole. I will absolutely recognize that not knowing the dynamics of ZL1 over the portions while I've noticed he was hardly applying throttle are probably because he's at or near the limit of the car, when I've done some minor driving, I'm either on the gas or on the brake slowing down. There were many times down the back straight where he wasn't accelerating, and many times earlier in the track where it was similar. Again, I'm sure it wasn't for a lack of nerves. I am only suggesting that there could be more potential with even better tires and future tuning, like ZR1 and Z06 have enjoyed.

My hat is off to Mr. Link, though - honestly. I know I couldn't drive that fast, though, I might think I could from time-to-time That was a GREAT run
Just maybe they are not showing all there cards yet. Plus the gaurd rails there are really close to the track one mistake and the car is toast. He had some pretty good corner speeds for a heavy car. I think he left some on the table though.
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:00 AM   #152
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SC vs. NA is not a fair compare

Both impressive
Tell that to the Viper ACR.
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:07 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by radz28 View Post
I just watched this video for about the 100th time. Forgive me if I've missed any post prior to mine, but has anyone noticed the telemetry on the throttle and brakes? It looks to me that when on the brakes, the track and 'G indicator glow nice and a rich red. When there's no throttle or brake input, it's pretty much black, or a dark cobalt. When Mr. Link is on the gas, though, it's a nice rich green.

While it's crazy-easy for me to play a back-seat-driver, and while my direct experience with the 'Ring is embarassingly limited only to video games, it seems to me that there was a potential to lean on the gas more than he had, on the whole. I will absolutely recognize that not knowing the dynamics of ZL1 over the portions while I've noticed he was hardly applying throttle are probably because he's at or near the limit of the car, when I've done some minor driving, I'm either on the gas or on the brake slowing down. There were many times down the back straight where he wasn't accelerating, and many times earlier in the track where it was similar. Again, I'm sure it wasn't for a lack of nerves. I am only suggesting that there could be more potential with even better tires and future tuning, like ZR1 and Z06 have enjoyed.

My hat is off to Mr. Link, though - honestly. I know I couldn't drive that fast, though, I might think I could from time-to-time That was a GREAT run
A professional driver with 40 laps around the track... I am sure he got the best time out of it he could. At the cost to go run the car GM is not going to put a subpar number out there if they know they can beat it. These runs are stock factory cars so you are seeing the limits of the car. The ZL1 will never compete with the ZR1 around the Ring simply due to aerodynamics. Sorry but the Camaro is a big blocky car and not really made to track. Its more of a drag car if anything... but it still put some respectable numbers down. I have been watching these Ring runs for a while since I am a former Viper owner. I hate seeing the "what ifs" starting to fly... and it always happens. Bottom line is its a factory car (no tune, no upgraded tires... just the way you buy it off the showroom floor) and they will have a first class driver. Sure they may get a second or two more out of it... but not 20 seconds to get it close to the ZR1.... or 30+ to get it near the Viper ACR.
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Old 10-14-2011, 08:06 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by detltu View Post
The telemetry is a traction circle. green is acceleration (go), red is braking (stop) and blue is lateral acceleration If you are outside the circle you would likely be experiencing slippage of the tires. The fact that he is not deep into the green in certain parts of the track isn't necessarily because he doesn't floor the gas pedal or isn't on it hard. I believe it has more to do with how fast he iis accelerating at the time. When you floor it at 50 mph its going to accelerate a lot faster than when you floor it at 100. I think that is more likely what you are seeing rather than him not giving it full throttle.
It would be nice to know whether that was actually a throttle/brake input rather than the actual 'G reading of the car itself. I understand where you're coming from, though

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Originally Posted by IOMZL1 View Post
I believe the circle represents 1G of acceleration. The location of the dot represents the sum of acceleration at that moment in time. This may seem to indicate the grip limit of the tires but only by coincidence. If the dot is straight up or down there is no lateral acceleration. A combination of acceleration or deceleration while turning causes the dot to go off center. I think the colors indicate driver inputs - red = braking, blue = steering, etc. The darker the color, the more input to the driver control.


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Just maybe they are not showing all there cards yet. Plus the gaurd rails there are really close to the track one mistake and the car is toast. He had some pretty good corner speeds for a heavy car. I think he left some on the table though.
I completely agree! It'd be pretty embarassing to drive that car right off the track

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Originally Posted by htp autoworks View Post
Tell that to the Viper ACR.
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Originally Posted by htp autoworks View Post
A professional driver with 40 laps around the track... I am sure he got the best time out of it he could. At the cost to go run the car GM is not going to put a subpar number out there if they know they can beat it. These runs are stock factory cars so you are seeing the limits of the car. The ZL1 will never compete with the ZR1 around the Ring simply due to aerodynamics. Sorry but the Camaro is a big blocky car and not really made to track. Its more of a drag car if anything... but it still put some respectable numbers down. I have been watching these Ring runs for a while since I am a former Viper owner. I hate seeing the "what ifs" starting to fly... and it always happens. Bottom line is its a factory car (no tune, no upgraded tires... just the way you buy it off the showroom floor) and they will have a first class driver. Sure they may get a second or two more out of it... but not 20 seconds to get it close to the ZR1.... or 30+ to get it near the Viper ACR.
There's no way I'm suggesting the improvement you're suggesting I am. I thank you for clarifying where you're loyaties lie, though...
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Old 10-14-2011, 02:32 PM   #155
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Awesome performance on the 'Ring, for sure, but putting up that time does nothing to change my mind as to whether or not I would actually buy one. I'm never going to run the car on any track, let alone one in Germany. Fact is, MOST ZL1's will simply be garage queens and rarely driven, let alone driven aggressively.
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Old 10-14-2011, 02:36 PM   #156
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Fact is, MOST ZL1's will simply be garage queens and rarely driven, let alone driven aggressively.
You know, for a fact, that most ZL1s will simply be garage queens and rarely driven how?
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Old 10-14-2011, 02:53 PM   #157
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You know, for a fact, that most ZL1s will simply be garage queens and rarely driven how?
By looking at what's happened with other limited production vehicles by GM and other auto makers. For every enthusiast on this site that will drive/track their ZL1, I'd bet there are 20 or more that will only hit the street on nice days and whose owners will brag about how few miles they have on the odometer or how it's never seen rain.

I did say most, not all.
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Old 10-14-2011, 03:05 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by tooslow View Post
By looking at what's happened with other limited production vehicles by GM and other auto makers. For every enthusiast on this site that will drive/track their ZL1, I'd bet there are 20 or more that will only hit the street on nice days and whose owners will brag about how few miles they have on the odometer or how it's never seen rain.

I did say most, not all.
Okay, so it's your opinion that most ZL1s will be rarely driven.

Also, just because a ZL1 isn't driven in the rain doesn't mean that it won't be driven often and driven aggressively.
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Old 10-14-2011, 03:15 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by IOMZL1 View Post
I believe the circle represents 1G of acceleration. The location of the dot represents the sum of acceleration at that moment in time. This may seem to indicate the grip limit of the tires but only by coincidence. If the dot is straight up or down there is no lateral acceleration. A combination of acceleration or deceleration while turning causes the dot to go off center. I think the colors indicate driver inputs - red = braking, blue = steering, etc. The darker the color, the more input to the driver control.
That is correct about the circle being 1 g of acceleration and not the limit of the tires. Not sure about the input being related to the color.
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Old 10-14-2011, 04:07 PM   #160
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I'm never going to run the car on any track, let alone one in Germany..
The track is in Germany, not on the moon. It is a valid measure of performance regardless of where it is located. Taking this car to the most demanding track in the world proves something over taking it to a lesser track where extra HP could make a poor handling car look better on the time sheet. You can expect that if a car does well at the ring it will do well everywhere else in the world.


I’m not specifically picking on you here because I’ve seen this comment about ‘some track in Germany’ about 100 times. Regardless of the variances possible with conditions and driver, this is as valid of a measure of handling performance as any 0-60 or ¼ mile time. Other than testing these things in a laboratory it is as good as we are going to get.
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Old 10-14-2011, 04:08 PM   #161
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That is correct about the circle being 1 g of acceleration and not the limit of the tires. Not sure about the input being related to the color.

I did notice the color went to black as the speed topped out. Outrunning the speed of light?

Man, I probably couldn't come anywhere close to beating his time, but it SURE would be fun to try.


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Old 10-14-2011, 06:41 PM   #162
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Okay, so it's your opinion that most ZL1s will be rarely driven.

Also, just because a ZL1 isn't driven in the rain doesn't mean that it won't be driven often and driven aggressively.
Well, duh. Yes, it is my opinion, based on what I have seen with other "limited" edition cars, that most of owners of ZL1's will not drive them anywhere near their limits. In my experience, those who are wary of getting their car wet are also reluctant to drive them often, let alone on a track where there is a chance of road debris damaging their clearcoat.

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The track is in Germany, not on the moon. It is a valid measure of performance regardless of where it is located. Taking this car to the most demanding track in the world proves something over taking it to a lesser track where extra HP could make a poor handling car look better on the time sheet. You can expect that if a car does well at the ring it will do well everywhere else in the world.


I’m not specifically picking on you here because I’ve seen this comment about ‘some track in Germany’ about 100 times. Regardless of the variances possible with conditions and driver, this is as valid of a measure of handling performance as any 0-60 or ¼ mile time. Other than testing these things in a laboratory it is as good as we are going to get.
It might as well be the moon, as the likelihood of me taking a ZL1 ( if I owned one) overseas just to drive it at the 'Ring is next to zero. I wasn't suggesting that it is not a valid means of showing a cars capabilities, just that having a good time there, or on any other track for that matter, is not going to influence my decision to buy or not buy one.

Last edited by tooslow; 10-14-2011 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:01 PM   #163
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Well, duh. Yes, it is my opinion, based on what I have seen with other "limited" edition cars, that most of owners of ZL1's will not drive them anywhere near their limits.
When stating an opinion, possible misrepresentation can be avoided by clearly phrasing statements of opinion as such, as opposed to using the words such as "fact" in one's statement of opinion.

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In my experience, those who are wary of getting their car wet are also reluctant to drive them often, let alone on a track where there is a chace of road debris damaging their clearcoat.
Anecdotal sampling often does not extrapolate accurately to the total population.
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Old 10-14-2011, 08:21 PM   #164
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I did notice the color went to black as the speed topped out. Outrunning the speed of light?

Man, I probably couldn't come anywhere close to beating his time, but it SURE would be fun to try.


.
Before I die...I'd like to visit Europe. Specifically Italy, the place of my family's origins...

While over there, I want to rent a decent car and take a trip around the 'Ring, if possible...it would be a dream come true.
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Old 10-14-2011, 09:02 PM   #165
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When stating an opinion, possible misrepresentation can be avoided by clearly phrasing statements of opinion as such, as opposed to using the words such as "fact" in one's statement of opinion.
Agreed. Considering that the car is not even in the hands of consumers yet, it is impossible for anyone, including me to make a factual statement. Therefore it will require me to refrain from stating conjecture as fact until such time as the data needed to support my position can be obtained.


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Antecdotal sampling often does not extrapolate accurately to the total population.
True, but when you draw conclusions from a set of data subject to random variation, in this case my observances over time of limited production vehicles of various makes and models, the system should produce somewhat reasonable answers when applied to this particular situation. It's been awhile, but I took statistics in college, too.
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:04 PM   #166
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LOL, smart peole talk!
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Old 10-15-2011, 03:32 PM   #167
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LOL, smart peole talk!
lol, no way, more like douchebag talk. Tooslow tries passing opinion off as fact and gets called out for it. then uses as many 50-cent words as possible to cover. happens all over the web, haha.
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Old 10-15-2011, 03:46 PM   #168
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lol, no way, more like douchebag talk. Tooslow tries passing opinion off as fact and gets called out for it. then uses as many 50-cent words as possible to cover. happens all over the web, haha.
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Old 10-15-2011, 04:29 PM   #169
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Old 10-20-2011, 01:51 PM   #170
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Old 10-20-2011, 02:01 PM   #171
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lol, no way, more like douchebag talk. Tooslow tries passing opinion off as fact and gets called out for it. then uses as many 50-cent words as possible to cover. happens all over the web, haha.
I have to agree on this one. Throwing out big "statistical" words doesnt make you any smarter or more knowledgable than the average car owner in this situation. It really makes you look like you broke out a dictionary to post a reply.... and in a car forum... thats douche baggery. Kidding...

Although the ZL1 will be a limited production car it will not be anything spectacular like a Veyron. So these cars will be driven jsut as the ZR1 are... in fact more so. No matter how long you hang onto that car it will not appreciate in value such as the Ford GT has. And dont take this as a shot... but after all it will be a Camaro. You can take an SS and apply a few mods to get the same performance... well really better. It will be a great car no doubt but it will not be a garage queen because unless you own the first one off the line it will not appreciate in value.
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Old 10-20-2011, 02:36 PM   #172
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I have to agree on this one. Throwing out big "statistical" words doesnt make you any smarter or more knowledgable than the average car owner in this situation. It really makes you look like you broke out a dictionary to post a reply.... and in a car forum... thats douche baggery. Kidding...

Although the ZL1 will be a limited production car it will not be anything spectacular like a Veyron. So these cars will be driven jsut as the ZR1 are... in fact more so. No matter how long you hang onto that car it will not appreciate in value such as the Ford GT has. And dont take this as a shot... but after all it will be a Camaro. You can take an SS and apply a few mods to get the same performance... well really better. It will be a great car no doubt but it will not be a garage queen because unless you own the first one off the line it will not appreciate in value.


I fear I may fail to fully comprehend the specific import of your dissertation.


No, wait, I got it now.

Yeah, gonna drive it like I stole it.


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Old 10-20-2011, 03:05 PM   #173
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Although the ZL1 will be a limited production car it will not be anything spectacular like a Veyron. And dont take this as a shot... but after all it will be a Camaro. You can take an SS and apply a few mods to get the same performance... well really better.
...Better than a Jeep....just sayin...
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Old 10-20-2011, 04:33 PM   #174
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Before I die...I'd like to visit Europe. Specifically Italy, the place of my family's origins...

While over there, I want to rent a decent car and take a trip around the 'Ring, if possible...it would be a dream come true.

I lived in Germany for four years & yes the autobahn is fun. The 'ring would be incredible. I didn't have a worthy car at the time, just a truck & a fourth-hand Mercedes.

I will warn you, those Italian drivers are COMPLETELY(stark-raving)-Bazinga-Brazil-Nuts !

They will take a four lane road and turn it into a seven lane, and the odd lane belongs to whomever is doing the most stupid Uhmm Stuff. Seriously I'm aggressive enough to play with 'em, but only when I'm driving something that I don't mind using to bluff my way into a lane or even possibly swapping paint.

Then the curvy secondary roads that have no guard rail, are one lane wide with occasional turnouts, and have hairpin turns with 300 ft cliffs beside them. When I got down out of the Dolomite mountains, (yes it was snowing too) I had to pull over and thank God for half an hour before my stomach un-knotted.

Found a cool ski resort though.
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Old 10-20-2011, 04:53 PM   #175
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I have to agree on this one. Throwing out big "statistical" words doesnt make you any smarter or more knowledgable than the average car owner in this situation. It really makes you look like you broke out a dictionary to post a reply.... and in a car forum... thats douche baggery. Kidding...

Although the ZL1 will be a limited production car it will not be anything spectacular like a Veyron. So these cars will be driven jsut as the ZR1 are... in fact more so. No matter how long you hang onto that car it will not appreciate in value such as the Ford GT has. And dont take this as a shot... but after all it will be a Camaro. You can take an SS and apply a few mods to get the same performance... well really better. It will be a great car no doubt but it will not be a garage queen because unless you own the first one off the line it will not appreciate in value.
I completely agree. And don't forget that for all the ZL1's power, the 2011 ZL580 and the 2010 ZL575 are effectively the same car powerplant wise....A 6.2L V8 with a TVS2300 blower. The big improvement in the ZL1 is the suspension, which while it will make an improvement on the handling of the car, doesn't make it "super-car" per se.

Still great to see these cars putting down well into the 7 minute range on the ring though. That's an accomplishment for sure.
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