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Old 04-04-2009, 09:53 PM   #1
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Pedders Xa Coil Over for the Camaro

Our Pedders eXtreme Xa Coil Overs have been race proven in a multitude of platforms. In Fact, they just won a major award for one of the best aftermarket accessaries in Au. We have several hundred already in the states on the GTO, G8, and Subaru.

So what are the Pedders eXtreme Xa coil overs and how are they different from the majority of the coil overs out there?
Here is an explanation of the Pedders eXtreme XA Coil over:
1. Mono Tube design
2. 30 Way detented adjustable damping
3. Separate coil trapping adjustment.
4. Height adjustment done by not playing with coil spring rates and height

So lets review them with more detail.
1. 30 way detented damper adjustability. Some struts out there there have a dial that you put a certain position for damping levels. Without having them detented, you are only guessing at the rates. When you have 30 specific locations or adjustments you can ALWAYS repeat any settings as long as you can count. When you are in the 15 and above clicks, you should be able to tell the difference between each click. Here are some general areas for detent adjustments:
a. 2-5 clicks will give you OE damper performance
b. 12-15 clicks will give you a general street/canyon run performance level settings
c. 21-25 clicks are all out race race levels and too firm for normal street.
d. 30 clicks you are popping or making hemorrhoids!
Adjusting the struts is as simple as turning a dial and counting

2. You will have some serious height adjustability, and to be honest, more height adjustability than the Camaro can handle to maintain proper geometry. Now normal adjustable struts you lower or raist the lower spring seat to raise/lower the vehicle. But this increases spring biases. So with our Pedders Xa coil overs, we preset the coil preloads and then leave them alone. Then to adjust height, you will screw in the strut in/out of the of the lower knuckle bracket. This allows you to change heights and still keep normal spring travel. This is a big deal!! It allows you to have more of an accurate corner weight balance. Height adjustments will be from the -.5inches to a very low 1.5 inches. We will have a selection of coil rates for you and am not sure yet what the sport coils will be for the Camaro. But the G8 is at 7 to 8 kg/mm front and 10kg/mm rear. conversion factors have errors in them but to give you an approximate rating you might understand, 1kg/mm will equal 55.88 lb/in

Now what does all this mean? Instead of going into a lot of explanation, lets talk about results.

We just recently did a major track verification day in New Jersey, using professional drivers. We tested 3 TrackII Xa coil over systems with 3 different types of tires on a skid pad test. They pulled a 1.01g with split configured tires, 1.03g's with Michelin PS2's, and a 1.05g with Forgeline 19x9.5 ZX3 Wheels Bridgestone Potenza REO50A Pole Position 275/35/19 XL W. As a reference, a stock G8 GT with 19s turned a .93g. The magazines rated the Camaro with 20 inch tires at .93g with FE2 and .90g for FE3. Yes, the V6 will out-handle the SS,. Now a Ferrari Enzo is at 1.01g at $250,000 plus.

Even a HHR with Xas turned a .97g!

So how did it actually perform on the Track? In a 10 lap event. Pete's G8 was almost 30 seconds faster than a Z06 and a Porsche GT, both with Track Tires. Now Pete's G8 is running a Pro Charger, and the suspension was was set up for a road coarse.

So where are we at with the Camaro? This week the Camaro Xa Beta struts were air shipped to us. They are currently going thru customs. We already have a special Camaro set up to install. More on this Camaro later.

So we are in great shape. Camaros are in transit to the dealerships right now. We have all the bushings already in stock, and will have sway bars and strut tower brace very soon.

More info on the Xas can be seen on our website at:
http://www.peddersusa.com/products/6

Now what is the best way to get Xa"s. Buy them with a system. We will have multiple systems very soon:
Street Xa
eXtreme Xa package
Street Xa Plus package which will include sway bars.

Buying a system will give you some fantastic discounts over buying parts individually.
https://secure.merlinsoftware.com.au...AMARO+PACKAGES

So if you have any questions, just ask!

















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Old 04-04-2009, 10:01 PM   #2
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That just looks

By the way I don't know how accurate the info you guys have on the web is right now. But I copy and pasted it on the threads in my sig. Let me know if it's right or if something will change.
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Old 04-04-2009, 10:27 PM   #3
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My first mod(s) will be a full Pedders setup.
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Old 04-05-2009, 12:10 AM   #4
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About how much $$ would you estimate we're looking at for the Street Xa Plus system?
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Old 04-05-2009, 12:54 AM   #5
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this is going to be fun....lol
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Old 04-05-2009, 08:14 AM   #6
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I'm not going to be in the market for coilovers, but I hope you release more info on some regular lowering springs soon; I just want to drop the car by about 1.5" or so.
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Old 04-05-2009, 10:31 AM   #7
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me likey me likey whats the price on this bad boy? Group buy discount perhaps
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:04 AM   #8
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Street Plus = Street II ?
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:22 AM   #9
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Here are some preliminary pricing on some of the Xa packages:

1/16/09 Pedders eXtreme Xa Street II Performance Kit
MERLIN STORE P/N CAMAROXASTREET
This is a value package with a kick! The new state of the art Pedders eXtreme Xa coil overs are revolutioning the auto suspension community! The Pedders Mono tube 30 way adjustability will give you the ultimate in desired ride, woth the flexibility that you will desire. Maciumum comfort when you want, to killer control when you have to show the world you are on top of your game. this package will include the critical bushings of Street 1 as well. For further control, you can upgrade to Track II with little duplcation in labor!

P/N DESCRIPTION Price
160086 Camaro eXtreme Xa Multi Adjustable Coilover Kit By Pedders $2,399.00
EP1167 Zeta Rear Differential Bush Kit $108.36
EP1169 Zeta Rear Extreme Sub-Frame Connector Kit $238.99
EP6577 CAMARO Front Radius rod with 5421 caster
increase shim $198.59
TBA CAMARO Zeta Extreme Strut - Brace $252.12

Pedders eXtreme Xa Street II Performance Kit PARTS TOTAL

$3,197.06
Menu System Discount $1,036.59

Menu System Discount Adjusted Parts Total $2,160.47



Now our merlin store has errors. It has our system listed at $1799.99, but it does not have the EP1167 differential bushing, plus it does not have our strut tower brace that is still in development.



The very serious package, our eXtreme Xa Track System is as follows:

PEDDERS CAMARO EXTREME XA TRACK SYSTEM
MERLIN STORE P/N CAMAROXATRACKEXT
1/16/09 "The eXtreme Xa Coil overs are a MAJOR INDUSTRY UPGRADE!! We are now offerig our exclusive eXtreme Xa Mono Tube, 30 way adjustable coil overs. We will offer 3 different coils: Street, Sports, and Race. The height is not adjusted by modifying spring rates like all others. These are the coolest coil overs on the market for the G8. The 30 way DETENTED, adjustability, gaurentees exact duplication when adjusting rates. The Track eXtreme combines all the components of the Street II and adds sway bars, bushes endlinks and coilovers. With the virtual pivot point design and the advanced independent rear suspension your tracked Camaro does not need to be over sprung and over damped. In complete OE trim it will out perform many respected marques. With a Track II eXtreme System your ZETA II Camaro is this close to race ready and yet still street comfortable. This is where GM's billion dollar investment in the ZETA architecture reaches levels of performance that are as aggressive as the Camaro styling. You real can have it all. The look. The handling. The comfort. The Camaro didn't return to the market. Your Pedderised ZETA II Camaro will dominate the market.

"

Part # Pedders Compnent Price
160086 Camaro eXtreme Xa Multi Adjustable Coilover Kit By Pedders $2,399.00
429006ADJKIT Zeta eXtreme sway bar adjustable kit $345.21
EP1167 Zeta Rear Differential Bush Kit $108.36
EP1169 Zeta Rear Extreme Sub-Frame Connector Kit $238.99
EP2112 Zeta Steering Rack Bush $26.25
EP6561 Zeta Front Control Arm Bush - Inner Bush $134.98
EP6577 CAMARO Front Radius rod with 5421 caster increase shim $198.59
EP7263 Zeta Rear Control arm - Upper inner rear $96.20
EP7264 Zeta rear lower control arm inner $96.20
EP7265 Zeta Rear Trailing arm Inner $96.20
EP7266 Zeta Rear Lower Control Arm & Rear Trailing Arm Outer $96.20
EP7267 Zeta Rear Toe link - inner and outer (2 kits required) $96.20
EP7267 Zeta Rear Toe link - inner and outer (2 kits required) $96.20
TBA CAMARO Zeta Extreme Strut - Brace $252.12

PEDDERS CAMARO EXTREME XA TRACK SYSTEM PARTS TOTAL
$4,280.70
Menu System Discount $982.39

Menu System Discount Adjusted Parts Total $3,298.31

The Track II info above is preliminary. The parts are correct, but the pricing discounts have yet to be finalized. Our merlin store lists the TrackII at $2599.99, but parts are iincomplete.

So here are some preliminary systems for you to look at. We will probably have a Street Xa Plus system that will include our sway bar kit. This has not been done yet. the pricing levels should be determined and accurate by the end of the month.

Now to give you some idea of the outcome of the eXtreme Track System, lets look at the 3 G8s with this system on it that we just checked in New Jersey. Now a stock G8 GT with 19 inch OE performance tires, turned a .93g on a skid pad. The 3 G8s with this system turned a 1.01g, 1.03g, and a 1.05g. The variations in the 3 has to do mostly with tire and wheel configurations, and alignment. As a reference, a Ferrari Enzo has a skid pad rating of 1.01g.

Now that there are a bunch of Camaros in transit to the dealers, we will have specific data hopefully on Camaro in 45-60 days.

thanks
mike
dms
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:36 AM   #10
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Living in NYC, there are a lot of potholes that simply can't be avoided. Would a Pedders Street Kit be more vulnerable to being damaged or would it protect the suspension more over keeping it stock?
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Old 04-05-2009, 11:37 AM   #11
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Street Plus = Street II ?
XA Street II and Xa Street are the same system. Again preliminary stuff.

However, we will most likely have a Xa Street plus, that will add our Pedders sway bar kit to the system. More info on this should be available by the end of the month

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Old 04-05-2009, 11:41 AM   #12
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Living in NYC, there are a lot of potholes that simply can't be avoided. Would a Pedders Street Kit be more vulnerable to being damaged or would it protect the suspension more over keeping it stock?
The Xas will have a minimum drop of around .5 inches, so I guess it will depend on how hard you really hit the big bumps and potholes. But cranking up the dampers will reduce coil movement, but ride quality will become firmer.

So what does a Z06 Vette do in your area? It is seriously lower than the .5 drop. With the Xa's you should be able to get a 1.5 drop fairly easily

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Old 04-05-2009, 11:43 AM   #13
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I spoke to Mike about his on Friday. Great information. Thanks agian,

For those of us that want more than straight line cars. This is certainly the ticket.

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Old 04-05-2009, 11:55 AM   #14
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This is something I definitely will do a year or two from now.
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Old 04-05-2009, 12:04 PM   #15
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So what does a Z06 Vette do in your area?
My theory, NYC and Long Island have some sort of deal with area body shops to put potholes and "speed bumps" on the road on purpose.

For anyone familiar with the LIE exit 42 going east on the ramp going to the Northern State. There's a "speed bump" that unless you're going 5 mph (35mph speed limit) or in a truck, sounds extremely painful.

I have no idea what the Corvette's do. Suspension work every couple of years?
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Old 04-05-2009, 12:05 PM   #16
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i go the coil overs on order
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Old 04-08-2009, 09:03 PM   #17
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Do you sell scales for balancing weight distribution too? Seems like an important tool given the total adjustibility between height and spring pressure combinations that are possible. How will we know whne everything is installed correctly (either by ourselves or second party service provider).

(yeah me I reached number 100! yeah!)
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Old 04-08-2009, 09:27 PM   #18
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Quote:
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Do you sell scales for balancing weight distribution too? Seems like an important tool given the total adjustibility between height and spring pressure combinations that are possible. How will we know whne everything is installed correctly (either by ourselves or second party service provider).

(yeah me I reached number 100! yeah!)
There are tons of people that will corner balance cars. But unless you are road racing or serious autocross, you do not need to corner balance.

Pete's G8 was abut 10mm low in the back end to get to his desired levels. Bu also he probably has about and extra 100lbs up front due to his ProCharger. What is required on a Camaro, is not certain at this point.

The Camaro will have a shorter wheel base than the G8, and this changes things as well.

The important thing to do is to talk to us about your goals for handling. After Pete does the Camaro Xa beta test, we will know a lot more.
Since the Camaro is only at the .90gs range for a SS, we know we can get you over 1.0 with our complete system and some tires. Also what is right for you may not be right for others. Car car teams spend months on suspension setups. So we are prepared for all levels of drivers.

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Old 04-08-2009, 09:39 PM   #19
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Old 04-08-2009, 09:44 PM   #20
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Mike -
I am interested.
Have two questions.

1. Assume that height/spring rate can be changed or ordered that compensate for added front end weight? (Maybe as much as 150 lbs)

2. Can your systems be adjusted (relatively easily) for front/rear bias for maximum weight transfer for 1/4 mile? And then back to drive home.

I know no suspension can do it all, but the with technology the systems seem to be able to make the switch pretty well between street/track/drag.

Thoughts on this?

Thanks Mike.
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Old 04-08-2009, 09:47 PM   #21
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I got a question. Unless GM has given them a camaro to test those with, how do they know that they will improve handling
It is true that we have not done any of the testing on a Camaro yet. However, we have a massiive amount of hours on a G8. The Camaro does not have a unique suspension, even though there are several parts that are different with the Zeta II, it is still a Zeta platform.

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Old 04-08-2009, 09:55 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Mike -
I am interested.
Have two questions.

1. Assume that height/spring rate can be changed or ordered that compensate for added front end weight? (Maybe as much as 150 lbs)

2. Can your systems be adjusted (relatively easily) for front/rear bias for maximum weight transfer for 1/4 mile? And then back to drive home.

I know no suspension can do it all, but the with technology the systems seem to be able to make the switch pretty well between street/track/drag.

Thoughts on this?

Thanks Mike.

You will need corner weighing to be able to shift bias. Once you know what levels you want, record them, then you can always return. Plus with respect to damping levels, the extremes in adjustment capabilities are significant.

the G8 coil rates will be changed and will be at 8kg/mm front and 10kg/mm rear. For drags, you will probably want to go down to 6kg/mm fronts.
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:03 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedster View Post
Mike -
I am interested.
Have two questions.

1. Assume that height/spring rate can be changed or ordered that compensate for added front end weight? (Maybe as much as 150 lbs)

2. Can your systems be adjusted (relatively easily) for front/rear bias for maximum weight transfer for 1/4 mile? And then back to drive home.

I know no suspension can do it all, but the with technology the systems seem to be able to make the switch pretty well between street/track/drag.

Thoughts on this?

Thanks Mike.

You will need corner weighing to be able to shift bias. Once you know what levels you want, record them, then you can always return. Plus with respect to damping levels, the extremes in adjustment capabilities are significant.

the G8 coil rates will be changed and will be at 8kg/mm front and 10kg/mm rear. For drags, you will probably want to go down to 6kg/mm fronts.

So I think there will be available up to 10kg/mm coil rates.

Adjusting right heights are not hard to do, but will require you putting the vehicle in the air. The rears are easier to get to and can be done without removing the wheels. But the front is a lot easier with the front wheels off.

Now depending on the biases you want, will depend on if the Xas will work for you. If you are looking to do a 90/10 front and a 25/75 rear, this will not work. Our Xas are monotubes and when you adjust the dampers, there is an equal % change thru jounce and rebound, and thru all speeds. Now for drag racing, you may want to set up the fronts at really low numbers, like 5 or so, and the rears at 10-15. Then drive home at 15 front an 12 rear.

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Old 04-08-2009, 10:24 PM   #24
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Thanks Mike.

I will contact you directly because we have way more to go over than what I can type without passing out at the keyboard. That way I won't hog the thread with my very specific requests.
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:30 PM   #25
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Quote:
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Thanks Mike.

I will contact you directly because we have way more to go over than what I can type without passing out at the keyboard. That way I won't hog the thread with my very specific requests.
I would be glad to assist you when you are ready.


Have you seen pete's review of our Pedders testing in NJ?
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13979

Some highlights:
86 Infiniti G37
.87 Ford Shelby GT500
.88 Dodge Charger SRT 8
.88 Pontiac G8 GT
.93 Ford GT500 Super Snake
.94 Audi RS 4
.95 BMW M3
.98 Audi RS R8
.99 Corvette Z06
.99 Porsche 911 Turbo
.99 Porsche Carrera GT
1.00 Porsche 911S
1.0006 Pedders USA, LLC Composite Pontiac G8
1.01 Ferrari Enzo
1.01 Dodge Viper SRT 10
1.02 Pedders USA, LLC Pontiac G8
1.03 Porsche 911 GTZ
1.04 Porsche GT3 RS

Let’s talk about setup on the Pontiac G8 ZETA Chassis which will apply to the soon to be delivered Chevrolet Camaro. The limitations of the OE ZETA chassis are directly related to production limitations and determination to reach a market price point. At Pedders USA, LLC we believe that the billion dollars of chassis development for the GM Global Rear Wheel Drive ZETA chassis has been well spent. The monocoque is solid, very solid. The IRS is among the best in the automotive industry as any price point. The evolution of the McPherson strut front suspension delivers remarkable results. The G8 in OR configuration is a very very good automobile with the potential to be a GREAT Automobile. We took our G8s to NJMP to prove our point.

Eric and Rich Johnson were generous with their time on the Friday before the 30th. They shut down Backstreet Performance to prep the Pedders USA, LLC G8. Eric and their Lead tech Matt worked until the wee hours of the morning to finish the job. Every nut and bolt was checked to make certain the car was track ready. That was the easy part. The more complex part of the equation was corner weighting and alignment.

Finished Ride Heights:
FR 610mm
FL 610mm
RR 595
LR 593

This was an interesting result. We drove in at:

FR 615mm
FL 615mm
RR 585
LR 585

We actually raised the rear and lowered the front to get to the best possible balance.

Corner Values
RF 1,111
LF 1,177
RR 925
LR 1050

Cross Weight
2161 50.7%

Drivers Weight 184
Fuel ¾ of a tank

Most of the magazines publish the front to rear weight ratio for the G8 GT at 51 / 49% Our numbers were different.

Front 53.1% / Rear 46.9%

The Pedders USA, LLC G8 has a ProCharger and coolers for Oil, Tranny and PS all mounted in front of the wheels. We believe this 100 pounds of additional weight created the difference between published numbers and our results. Our vehicle weight with the driver in place was just under 4,300 pounds. We were able to reduce weight in the wheels, tires and suspension while making significant upgrades. The 19x9.5 Forgeline wheels with 275/35/19/XL Pole Position Bridgestone tires reduced weight by just over 9 pounds per wheel over the OE 19x8 245/40 Bridgstone tires. This reduction in mass is HUGE at speed and dramatically improves braking, acceleration and car control. Pedders Xa coilovers reduced the weight at the corners as well. An OE G8 strut assembly weighs in at roughly 20 pounds. We saved another 8 pounds here. While 70 pounds doesn’t sound like a lot in a two ton vehicle, 70 pounds at the corners is significant.

A limiting factor in the corner weighting process are fixed length endlinks. Adjustable endlinks would have improved the results by about 35 pounds per corner making an already well balanced vehicle almost perfect. The typical adjustable endlink uses spherical bearings and looks a lot like a screen door adjuster. They work very well, but at a great expense in NVH. The G8 is a LUXURY performance sedan. We did not want to convert it to a race car with the typical harsh ride and increase in cabin noise. We wanted to make this LUXURY sedan perform like a race car, but ride like a LUXURY car so we passed on the adjustable endlinks – until Pedders can deliver a set of double ball joint adjustable length endlinks that are as quiet as OE endlinks and we don’t expect that to be a long wait.

Production vehicles with limited option lists are very consistent in weight distribution. Using the locking collar measurements as presets for your Xa coilover installation will get you close to a corner weighted vehicle. While the car would not be coner weighted, you starting point for corner weighting will be pretty darn close.

RF 33mm / FR 610mm
LF 29.7mm / FL 610mm
RR 30.5mm / RR 595
LR 38mm / LR 593

These are the numbers from my personal G8. They will not be the exact numbers your vehicle would need on the scales, but they will be close to what you need. The variations in collar distances do not directly translate to ride height. The ride heights are so close you cannot see a difference and the measured variation is only 2mm. The collar distance measurements have an 8mm difference in the rear. This is due to the weight distribution of the vehicle and the load being placed on the vehicle by the sway bar.

With the corner weighting complete, it was on to the alignment. There is minimal data available for road course alignment setup on the G8. There are countless opinions and we relied on a series of experts in the field. Some are on the Pedders payroll, some are Pedders Dealers and some are veteran road course racers. We decided to use these specifications.

Front
Castor 7.75 No Bias
Camber -2.2
Toe -3.0

Rear
Camber -1.4
Toe +.03

With the G8 so low, reducing camber was a challenge. We were able to increase the range of adjustment using custom alignment bolts. We plan to provide more details on the forum about this, but for the present you should know that the OE toe and camber bolt / washers provide about .75 degrees of adjustment. Our custom made setup has an adjustment range of 1.5 degrees. Once we have completed our evaluation of the modification we will provide more details.

The sway bars were adjusted to full hard in the rear and one off full hard in the front. We ran with the Xa coilovers set to 30 all around. Running the dampers this hard is fine for short periods of time on the road course, but would cause excessive wear on street tires if used for long track sessions. The combination of coil rate and damper rate would be too much increasing heat in the tire which would lead to the tire becoming greasy with rapid wear. An R compound tire would be very happy with this setup and we would probably back the front bar off a notch or maybe not after testing.


mike
dms

Last edited by Info@PeddersUSA.com; 04-08-2009 at 10:49 PM.
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