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Old 10-21-2011, 02:57 PM   #1
calbert1999
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Magnetic Ride Control - Marketing Hype or Real Performance Advantage?

I've been doing research to understand the big deal around the latest information with the Camaro ZL1 having Magnetic Ride Control.

I'm not an engineer but my understanding is that the shocks have some kind of special fluid and electronic sensors that allow the vehicles computer to adjust camber to provide a stiffer or less stiff feel based on road conditions.

So, the question is; Considering, this technology has been around for several years in other vehicles since 2002, is it just Marketing Hype because it's going to be in the ZL1 or is it really a true Peformance Advantage? Aren't there more recent and better shock technologies on the market?

For example; Does this avoid the need for any aftermarket coilovers, bushings, control arm upgrades, trailing arms / links or sway bars or will you still require additional suspension upgrades if you want better suspension performance?
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Old 10-21-2011, 04:10 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calbert1999 View Post
I've been doing research to understand the big deal around the latest information with the Camaro ZL1 having Magnetic Ride Control.

I'm not an engineer but my understanding is that the shocks have some kind of special fluid and electronic sensors that allow the vehicles computer to adjust camber to provide a stiffer or less stiff feel based on road conditions.

So, the question is; Considering, this technology has been around for several years in other vehicles since 2002, is it just Marketing Hype because it's going to be in the ZL1 or is it really a true Peformance Advantage? Aren't there more recent and better shock technologies on the market?

For example; Does this avoid the need for any aftermarket coilovers, bushings, control arm upgrades, trailing arms / links or sway bars or will you still require additional suspension upgrades if you want better suspension performance?
Magnetic Ride Control is an absolutely outstanding factory set up. I like the way this commercial puts it.




That being said, it is not the end all suspension set up. There is plenty of room for improvement if you want/need it. The team at Pfadt is going to be a great resource for the ZL1 community once it hits the street, they have been making Corvettes with Magnetic Ride Control faster for some time now.
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Old 10-21-2011, 06:18 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calbert1999 View Post
I'm not an engineer but my understanding is that the shocks have some kind of special fluid and electronic sensors that allow the vehicles computer to adjust camber to provide a stiffer or less stiff feel based on road conditions.

For example; Does this avoid the need for any aftermarket coilovers, bushings, control arm upgrades, trailing arms / links or sway bars or will you still require additional suspension upgrades if you want better suspension performance?
First off it does not modify the camber/caster or change it in any way. It uses the metallic particles suspended in the shock fluid to effectively change the viscosity and vary the damping rates. This can be done in milliseconds and to infinitely varying degrees. Depending on how well implemented and controlled it can effectively eliminate body roll.

As with anything, you cannot please all of the masses all of the time. Being that is doesn't modify sway bar rates or any other suspension component other than the behavior of the strut (which can still fail/leak) there will always be some "upgrading" going on depending on your needs/wants...
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Old 10-22-2011, 09:35 AM   #4
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The Chevrolet integration of MR into traction control and stability control is nothing short of racket science. It is a very very very good system. Combine that with revised rear bar diameter and location along with revised sub-frame bushes ala the revised bush from the Vert and you have a ZL1 suspension that ran an awesome time at the ring.

Chevrolet is also restricted in some key dimensions. Is there any doubt that the ZL1 would have been faster on the ring if it were significantly lowered? Thanks to assembly line minimum heights and Federal crash test standards it won't roll out of GM as low as we would like to see it. It shouldn't as most buyers would prefer to be able to pull over a curb stone without any damage or navigate speed bumps straight on as well as steeper ramps and driveways. That is why we exist

For the most demanding ZL1 owner the aftermarket is where they will hone a sharp knife into a scalpel. The freeze frame is from the Ring video. There are a thousand reasons why this comparison may be inaccurate, but I picked a similar turn, with a similar speed and a similar camera angle. I placed the ZL1 over the Pedders Camaro to get the image scale next to identical. I belive it to be a fair comparative photo. Feel free to disagree.



Once again, I am a HUGE fan of the ZL1 and MR system. Chevrolet has designed and built an absolutely amazing machine. MOST ZL1 buyers will be faster behind the wheel with the MR and on-board driver coaching aids. There are a select few skilled drivers that I think will prefer a full Supercar system. That is the luxury of being an aftermarket company. Those few drivers support our business model.

For an even more select few Pedders is proud to have partnered with Lingenfelter Performance Engineering to build our version of the 'Ultimate Camaro' the L/28



Lingenfelter L/28 Camaro

We wanted this to be a full amenity daily driver with a bad attitude on a road course. We think we have it covered from the normally aspirated N/A LS7 to the Pedders Supercars and everything in between.

Lingenfelter L/28 Camaro

• LPE LS7 Engine, 681HP @ 6700 RPM / 588 LB/FT @5600
• LPE Dry Sump Oiling System
• Tremec 6060 6 Speed Manual Transmission
• LPE Dual Disc Clutch and Flywheel
• LPE Clutch Return Spring Kit
• MTI Short Throw Shifter
• LPE Leather Shift Knob
• LPE 9.5” Differential, 373 Ratio with no preload TracRite® GT – Helical Gear Limited Slip
• Driveshaft Shop HD 1400HP Axle Shafts
• LPE HD 2 Piece Driveshaft
• LPE Twin Fuel Pump Module with Electronic Control
• LPE Power Steering Cooler
• Be Cool Radiator
• American Racing Headers
• Custom Side Exit Exhaust with Magnaflow Mufflers
• LPE / Pedders SportsRyder Supercar Coil-over Suspension System, Sway Bars, Complete Bushing Package
• Brembo Brake System. Front 15” 2 Piece Rotor with 6 Piston Caliper, Rear 14” 2 Piece Rotor with 4 Piston caliper
• Forgeline Wheels, 20”X10.5”
• Michelin Tires, 305/35ZR20
• Lingenfelter Signature Body Kit, including front splitter, side skirts, rear diffuser, and rear spoiler
• Specter Werkes Extractor Hood
• Lingenfelter L/28 Graphics
• RPM Six Point Roll Bar
• Corbeau TRS Leather Seats and 5 Point Belts
• Lingenfelter CNC Pedal Pads

How good is the L/28. We'll all know very soon.

Optima Announces Second Half of The Ultimate Street Car Invitational Competitors



Optima’s Ultimate Street Car Invitational pits all types of Pro-Touring cars, trucks, and hot rods against each other in autocross, road rally, braking, and hot lap competitions. This is the event’s fourth consecutive running and as usual, it will take place in Pahrump, Nevada at the Spring Mountain Motor Ranch following the SEMA show. This year’s event will be held on November 4th and 5th. The cars entered thus far have earned their spots through various autocross events across the country, but there’s still one spot that has yet to be filled. A team of judges will select one addition entrant from the vehicles on display at this year’s SEMA show at the Las Vegas Convention Center. The latest class of entrants are:

· Jason Childress, ‘69 Ford Mustang

· Mike Copeland, ‘11 L/28

· Matt Farah, ‘98 C5 Chevy Corvette

· Rob Ferreti, ‘01 Chevy Corvette

· Mitch Greenblatt, ‘08 Mercedes CLK63

· Andrew Herold, ‘72 Chevy Camaro

· Scott Hoag, ‘11 Ford Mustang

· Randy Johnson, ‘69 AMX

· Albert Melchior, ’70 Pontiac Formula

· Allan Miller, ‘10 Chevy Camaro

· Carlos Monterrubio, ‘73 Nissan 240Z

· Terry Neuville, ‘68 Chevy Camaro

· Joe Shown, ’90 Corvette ZR1

· Marty Sokulski, ‘68 Dodge Charger

· Filip Trojanek, ‘66 Ford Mustang

· Curt Ukasic, ‘62 Nova Runt

· Mark Wetterau, ‘69 Chevy Camaro

Read more: http://blogs.hotrod.com/optima-annou...#ixzz1anWFu48z

You can see it and 20 something other Pedderised vehicles at SEMA. Be sure to visit the GM, LPE and West Coast Customs booths
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Old 10-22-2011, 09:42 AM   #5
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Short direct answers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by calbert1999 View Post
I'm not an engineer but my understanding is that the shocks have some kind of special fluid and electronic sensors that allow the vehicles computer to adjust camber to provide a stiffer or less stiff feel based on road conditions.
The damping changes but no alignment adjustments are made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by calbert1999 View Post
So, the question is; Considering, this technology has been around for several years in other vehicles since 2002, is it just Marketing Hype because it's going to be in the ZL1 or is it really a true Peformance Advantage? Aren't there more recent and better shock technologies on the market?
MR is state-of-the-art. Better is relative. For all driving conditions at all times it is tough to beat the latest greatest MR integration for GM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by calbert1999 View Post
For example; Does this avoid the need for any aftermarket coilovers, bushings, control arm upgrades, trailing arms / links or sway bars or will you still require additional suspension upgrades if you want better suspension performance?
We feel the ZL1 will still be modified from top to bottom. No matter how good customers always want more.
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:22 PM   #6
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To me the big thing about MR is that you can have a nice daily driver comfortable ride one minute, and with the push a button, have a corner carving, high G pulling, awsome handling suspension the next. It allows you to have the comforable ride for the street and a race car ride (some would describe as stiff or harsh) for the track. Try driving daily down a rough, frost heaved, pot holed, cracked road in a track car with suspension tuned for racing, your back will be begging for mercy! Not so with MR unless you have it in performance mode.
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:30 PM   #7
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I don't think you'll find the ride in 'performance mode'. The OE ride height combined with the wheel and tire package will deliver a civil ride in all the ZL1 MR configurations. It will also deliver more car and performance than any factory built Camaro ever made.

As for comfort in a fully Pedderised track ready Camaro I'll let the owners speak for themselves.
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:44 PM   #8
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So how close will i be to the ZL1 in perfromance when i add the Pedders Justice full kit?
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Old 10-23-2011, 07:46 PM   #9
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@Justicpete; Thanks for responding you've confrmed what I was thinking all along.

My current setup is nice and stiff, and still road worthy for a daily driver, and once I sort out the noisy end-links issues (with the new service pack I just received), I'll be back on track again.

I prefer driving my SS without all the fancy electronic traction controls which allows me to guage how the vehicle perform without intervention and my own driving skills.

My honest opinion is I believe MR is a great option on a vehicle, but there are other areas that will most likely require improvements too.

My next list of upgrades will be bushings, control arms and eventually coilovers. But, I'll do that after I get a few thousand kms. when the new LSX-427 get's installed.

Can't wait for someone to get their hands on the ZL1 to give feedback.

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Old 10-23-2011, 07:57 PM   #10
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I love the idea of the new camaro...but for a guy like me who always wants more...too pay for that and then scrap it just improve is not the best thing to do. I know I will want to have a pfadt or pedders set up...and the stock electronics will probably have to scrapped
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Old 10-23-2011, 08:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BullF-16 View Post
So how close will i be to the ZL1 in perfromance when i add the Pedders Justice full kit?
From what I've read, I believe aftermarket will always perform better than what's stock. I don't think you'd put a stock Camaro SS or ZL1 into a professional race.

Quote:
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I love the idea of the new camaro...but for a guy like me who always wants more...too pay for that and then scrap it just improve is not the best thing to do. I know I will want to have a pfadt or pedders set up...and the stock electronics will probably have to scrapped
Yeah. I agree. Wish we didn't have to make all the mods, and the automaker just did it the best way to begin with. I would prefer it that way, however, it may be that a lot of people wouldn't purchase the vehicle if priced out of their range. I'd hope they would met us half way though considering if you really want an Camaro to perform at ultimate levels you have to rip everything out and replace it. starting with the bushings.
Thing is the mojority of sports car owners purchase them for nostalgic reasons, bragging rights, et al. Most just use them to drive to work and pick up groceries. Because of this, the vehicle isn't built to perform at peok levels. And, the real drivers pay the price.
I've done just a handfull of suspension mods to mine and I tell you it's night and day stock vs mods, I can't wait until I do the rest, and as a daily driver my back doesn't hurt one bit. I can't say the same about my pocket though. LOL
These, vehicles are awesome with the right amount of power, and suspension mods to stick to the road.
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Old 10-23-2011, 09:15 PM   #12
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So how close will i be to the ZL1 in perfromance when i add the Pedders Justice full kit?
May I rephrase that to how close will the ZL1 be to a fully Pedderised Camaro?



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Old 10-23-2011, 09:25 PM   #13
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So would the Justice kit be considered fully Pedderised.....if so, i found my next series of mods



Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
May I rephrase that to how close will the ZL1 be to a fully Pedderised Camaro?



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Old 10-23-2011, 09:29 PM   #14
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May I rephrase that to how close will the ZL1 be to a fully Pedderised Camaro?



Pete, i'll take one of each please. lol

Yes, the Justice Kit would be considered a fully Pedderized Camaro
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Old 10-24-2011, 05:21 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calbert1999 View Post
From what I've read, I believe aftermarket will always perform better than what's stock. I don't think you'd put a stock Camaro SS or ZL1 into a professional race.



Yeah. I agree. Wish we didn't have to make all the mods, and the automaker just did it the best way to begin with. I would prefer it that way, however, it may be that a lot of people wouldn't purchase the vehicle if priced out of their range. I'd hope they would met us half way though considering if you really want an Camaro to perform at ultimate levels you have to rip everything out and replace it. starting with the bushings.
Thing is the mojority of sports car owners purchase them for nostalgic reasons, bragging rights, et al. Most just use them to drive to work and pick up groceries. Because of this, the vehicle isn't built to perform at peok levels. And, the real drivers pay the price.
I've done just a handfull of suspension mods to mine and I tell you it's night and day stock vs mods, I can't wait until I do the rest, and as a daily driver my back doesn't hurt one bit. I can't say the same about my pocket though. LOL
These, vehicles are awesome with the right amount of power, and suspension mods to stick to the road.
It would be nice if they just offered a track package as a factory option (most of the Pedders as well as some of the Pfadt suspension parts are already GM approved). That way those just concerned about price would be happy and the rest could spend a little more for the performance they want from the factory.

- GM are you listening??
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Old 10-24-2011, 04:46 PM   #16
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Our position on Magnetic ride control is based off of our experience with the C5 and C6 Corvettes. The Mag Ride dampers will offer increased performance and comfort over the current suspension components equipped on the Camaro from the factory and from an engineering standpoint the system is extremely cool and really does offer real world differences. That being said, ultimately when Corvette owners are looking to upgrade their suspension systems they typically go to coilovers and never look back.

So far it's uncertain the performance benefit the Mag Ride suspension will have for the ZL1. Obviously the cars are hauling the mail around tracks all over the world right now so our feeling is that the system is setup very nicely for street and track performance. That being said, the ZR1 also sets some amazing times stock and sees significant performance benefits from a true coilover system. For drivers seeking the ultimate performance our coilover products developed specifically for the Camaro will offer the same benefits they always have:
  • Wide range of easilly accessed damping adjustment that requires no drilling
  • Damping rates designed exclusively to increase your camaros performance
  • Inverted shocks for less unsprung weight
  • Spring rates selected specifically for the Camaro, with custom rates available
  • Custom mounting solutions to optimize handling for the 5th gen
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:03 AM   #17
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So would the Justice kit be considered fully Pedderised.....if so, i found my next series of mods
Yes sir it would. Thank you for choosing Pedders for your 5th Gen!
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Old 10-27-2011, 01:43 PM   #18
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For the average user and even light track duty customer, it is going to be a HUGE difference in the car.

The ability to change how the car rides and it's ability to change to different road conditions is going to be a big leap in traction and ride for the Camaro owners.

Now what I have found, is that if you are taking the car WAY past the limit of what it was designed for with race tires, and a lot more downforce with added aero bits you will exceed what the system can handle and will have to revert back to a traditional style suspension system.

For most of you, it is an extremely cool setup, and more than marketing hype.
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Old 10-27-2011, 09:50 PM   #19
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On my 2011 CTSV we only have 2 modes, Tour and Sport. It seems the ZL1 will also add a Track mode which I wish the integrated into the CTSV.

I have to be honest here. We lowered our CTSV with 3 different springs from D3 and Eibach. The car looks killer but the MAg ride does not work as well so there is a trade off. Everyone hates Fender Gap you would think the OEM would wake up by now.

So for anyone looking to lower the car only your not going to be fully happy but I think in Track Mode if GM did the engineering right it will feel awesome and I would leave it alone.

The only cars that I get to drive on a semi regular basis from our customers that have Mag ride and blow my mind are the Ferrari 599 GTB, GT0, 458 and California. On those cars the systems are just amazing and I am sure Ferrari spent much more money on the engineering than GM.

Kw has a V3 kit for the CTSV that defeats the Mag Ride and we plan on installing one on our CTSV this winter. I know Kw will make a similar system for the ZL1 owners by Spring 2012. This really would be the only option to do it right, leave Mag ride alone or tear it all out with Kwv3.
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Old 10-28-2011, 12:21 AM   #20
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According to the ZL1 Dealer Reference Guide

"The Camaro ZL1 will feature the 3rd generation of Magnetic Ride Control. MRC employs valveless damping and MagnetoRheological fluid technology. MR fluid is a suspension of iron particles in a synthetic fluid.... Particles are magnetized and aligned into fibrous structures, changing flow resistance... The new dual coil design also enables faster response, with damping levels now adjustable up to 1000 times per second - about one adjustment per inch of vehicle travel at 60 mph - making the system exceptionally responsive to changing driving and road conditions. There are 3 settings for MRC in the ZL1: Tour, Sport, and Track."

It also includes the Performance Track Management system with 5 settings to adjust the MRC, launch control, Traction Control, and stability control systems.
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Old 10-28-2011, 01:37 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabul SS View Post
It would be nice if they just offered a track package as a factory option (most of the Pedders as well as some of the Pfadt suspension parts are already GM approved). That way those just concerned about price would be happy and the rest could spend a little more for the performance they want from the factory.

- GM are you listening??
I just read about GM's 1LE SEMA concept car with MRC. I guess they are listening.

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Old 10-28-2011, 08:18 AM   #22
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Bottom line for me is, I will flat out cry if my peddersized SS handles better than my Zl1. (I am one of the lucky ones who received a allocation and will be ordering tomorrow)

I really really hope that I dont essentially downgrade in regards to handling.

I just like the fact that the car will do all the adjusting on its own.... But man I hate the fact that the Zl1 is so high off the ground. So having said that, I wrote a little letter to our suspension god.

Dear Pete,

Please design something for the Zl1 that will lower the car drastically but at the same time not cheat the MR system but actually work with the system to provide even better handling.

Thanks
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Old 10-28-2011, 11:02 AM   #23
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Bottom line for me is, I will flat out cry if my peddersized SS handles better than my Zl1. (I am one of the lucky ones who received a allocation and will be ordering tomorrow)

I really really hope that I don't essentially downgrade in regards to handling.

I just like the fact that the car will do all the adjusting on its own.... But man I hate the fact that the Zl1 is so high off the ground. So having said that, I wrote a little letter to our suspension god.

Dear Pete,

Please design something for the Zl1 that will lower the car drastically but at the same time not cheat the MR system but actually work with the system to provide even better handling.

Thanks
I have learned one incontrovertible fact in my years of life. There is a God. I am not him.

Lowering a MR vehicle and maintaining the excellence of the OE integration is a daunting task. A slight drop with lowering coils is as close as you can get. If you visit the Vette and CTS-V forums you will find this to be a consensus perspective.

The OE MR system will be best for all but the most aggressive and skilled drivers. For those people we will install our current Justice System with a revised rear bar. From all the data I have collected on the 5th Gen and all the soft - verbal - data I have on the ZL1, the ZL1 is now neck and neck with the Pedders Camaro we released and have documented on this forum two years ago. From top to bottom we have detailed our build so that everyone in the community has access to it for thier own builds. The HUGE plus of the ZL1 -- IT IS A FULL WARRANTY FACTORY HOT ROD. Way to go GM

The Lingenfelter L/28 is much faster. To give you an isolated bit of data, in our Gingerman testing on the back straight the 'new' course the L/28 is over 10% faster 12.6 MPH. The test conditions were terrible with a damp cold track. This is part motor, part brakes and part suspension in that the greater the speed you carry out of a turn the higher the speed on the straight will be. We expect to see our fair share of Pedderised ZL1s, not because the ZL1 is in any way bad, but because no matter how great a new car is there are always a few that want more.

Make no mistake about it, there will be some tears shed when really well built 5th Gens are traded for the ZL1. There is no way I would trade a L/28 for a ZL1. I would sit in a corner and cry for a week over that deal no matter how much cash I got with the new ZL1 But that is just me.
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Old 10-28-2011, 12:23 PM   #24
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I guess time will tell but isnt the L/28 going to be more than the Zl1?
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:03 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toilets View Post
I guess time will tell but isnt the L/28 going to be more than the Zl1?
Lingenfelter will build L/28s to order so the price points will have a wide range. When you use Forgeline wheels with lightening pockets and titanium hardware to save weight things start getting expensive. The CTS-V brakes are a budget friendly upgrade that bring an SS equal in braking to a ZL1. Add Brembo GT-R brakes and the cost factor jumps. Are they better than ZL1 breaks? Is the sky blue? Is water wet? It all depends how far you want to take a 5th Gen.

Is an L/28 faster around a track or down the strip than a ZL1? Is the sky blue? Is water wet? All joking aside, the performance data on the ZL1 that is publicly available indicates the ZL1 now matches the Pedders USA Camaro. We are the aftermarket and we are supposed faster than OE. That is why we partnered with LPE to build the L/28
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