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Old 11-28-2011, 04:56 PM   #171
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Maybe find room for exhaust cutouts B4 cats for WOT.
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Old 11-28-2011, 04:58 PM   #172
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Maryland isnt just defending a product, hes trying to defend against the logic that "If jannety says this is how it is..this is how it is." I think that ted has a good prescense in the forums..but it annoys the hell out of me when someone says oh ted said this, or oh ted said that...i think people need to learn to think for themselves sometimes, and not just accept the first opinion that comes along. There are so many variables, as clearly stated in this thread, that you cant say cat failure is guaranteed with a supercharger..you have different parts, different tunes, different temperatures humidity elevation etc that play into the way a car runs etc. Is it "wise to run without cats? the answer is an obvious yes.

Theres a potential for cat failure, "wise" indicates your not oblivious to this and take the steps to prevent it. However, it isnt "wise" just state if you have a car with 600+hp on forced induction that its automatically going to fail...

I think reputations have a tendency to pro-create themselves around here..Jannetty obviously is well versed in the automotive world, however, everyone has their own opinions, and sometimes, we all make false calls....and everyones situations and experiences are different.

The moral is, when it comes to this kind of game, no one should log onto a computer, post a question, take the first response they get, and run with it. That first guy could be completely wrong, or completely right...why chance your money on what someone else knows..I think thats what maryland is getting at here...he isnt just defending a brand for sales sake. If you log on, your always going to get a right and wrong answer...its up to you to gather the facts, opinions, and occasionally the bullshit, and make your own semi- informed, best judgement decision.

Sorry for the rant..just so tired of watching people jump on the bandwagon on this forum, especially when they have no experience with the issue at hand and just because one person says so...

Not a stab at jannety, maryland or anyone...just something everyone needs to realize.
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Old 11-28-2011, 06:15 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by GMRULZ View Post
One thing to note is if you want to keep your cats, if you have a boost guage and know what your boost normally is if it all of a sudden the guage spikes boost way over what you normally see odds are at least on a supercharged car a cat just went bad and is creating a restriction. Take foot out of gas and drive normally till you get to a exhaust shop and get those cats checked. So you do have a way of knowing when a cat goes south, just watch your boost guage.
Good info.... and glad to see this thread making a better turn. It pays to post failures/successes and know where your next weakest link might be hiding - or at least be better educated on how to spot it before you see $$$$$ signs.

Here's a few C5 links I quickly found without doing full internet searches. Post #45 of the last link was interesting from Lingenfelter. I'm sure there's been warranty claims where the manufacturer is contacted and reciept provided - in this case the seller is never contacted (1st hand knowledge). In my case, the manufacturer nicely replaced the cats - but did mention they wouldn't be warrantied again due to my power level and where I'm headed (and tossed in the "tuning" talk). I sold the brand new replacements to someone with different HP goals. Now I have off road pipes and cats on the shelf for my "sniffer" years.

On better note... if contemplating not running cats - your heavily boosted and getting to the crazy HP range

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ed#post3919646

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ed#post3428514

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ed#post3428495

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...lt#post3887183

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...ght=cat&page=2
post 45

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Old 11-28-2011, 06:34 PM   #174
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Maryland isnt just defending a product, hes trying to defend against the logic that "If jannety says this is how it is..this is how it is." I think that ted has a good prescense in the forums..but it annoys the hell out of me when someone says oh ted said this, or oh ted said that...i think people need to learn to think for themselves sometimes, and not just accept the first opinion that comes along. There are so many variables, as clearly stated in this thread, that you cant say cat failure is guaranteed with a supercharger..you have different parts, different tunes, different temperatures humidity elevation etc that play into the way a car runs etc. Is it "wise to run without cats? the answer is an obvious yes.

Theres a potential for cat failure, "wise" indicates your not oblivious to this and take the steps to prevent it. However, it isnt "wise" just state if you have a car with 600+hp on forced induction that its automatically going to fail...

I think reputations have a tendency to pro-create themselves around here..Jannetty obviously is well versed in the automotive world, however, everyone has their own opinions, and sometimes, we all make false calls....and everyones situations and experiences are different.

The moral is, when it comes to this kind of game, no one should log onto a computer, post a question, take the first response they get, and run with it. That first guy could be completely wrong, or completely right...why chance your money on what someone else knows..I think thats what maryland is getting at here...he isnt just defending a brand for sales sake. If you log on, your always going to get a right and wrong answer...its up to you to gather the facts, opinions, and occasionally the bullshit, and make your own semi- informed, best judgement decision.

Sorry for the rant..just so tired of watching people jump on the bandwagon on this forum, especially when they have no experience with the issue at hand and just because one person says so...

Not a stab at jannety, maryland or anyone...just something everyone needs to realize.
I come to this forum to get information....because I don't think that I know everything. I appreciate that there are experienced industry guys on here that are willing to talk and answer questions. I've done my research and read a shit load on and off this forum which led me to eventually taking my Camaro to Jannetty (with 2 't's) Racing Enterprises where Ted took my already supercharged Camaro that wasn't running quite right and turned it into a very well running beast. I even picked up about 2 mpg despite adding 115 rwhp. There is a reason JRE has a following. I'm not a totally unobjective blind follower but when Ted gives his input...I'm giving it heavy consideration

Last edited by S-eatin-grin; 11-28-2011 at 09:46 PM. Reason: typo's
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Old 11-28-2011, 06:51 PM   #175
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I come to this forum to get information....because I don't think that I know everything. I appreciate that there are experienced industry guys on here that are willing to talk and answer questions. I've done my research and read a shit load on and off this forum which led me to eventually taking my Camaro to Jannetty (with 2 't's) Racing Enterprise where Ted took my already supercharged Camaro that wasn't running quite right and turning it into very well running beast. I even picked up about 2 mpg despite adding 115 mpg. There is a reason JRE has a following. I'm not a totally unobjective blind follower but when Ted gives his input...I'm giving it heavy consideration
Not bashing and not pointing fingers..it just seems to are too many followers on here who dont always think for themselves..like i said...Jannetty obvioulsy has tons of knowledge/ experience and is a positive influence on the forums.
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Old 11-28-2011, 07:29 PM   #176
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We have not seen any Factory Cat Failures with an Out of the Box Supercharger systems at 5-6 PSI boost.

It is really when the Wick gets turned up that we start to see failures and Again Duty Cycle plays a Huge Roll.

Ted.
Exactly what I've been hearing. Also above 600 RWHP seems to surface alot. Lingenfelter has also seen the same on high boost and long tubes. I believe the quote was "there isn't a cat on the market that will handle this much power". The links I posted have Kooks high flow on a few.... but I've heard of numerous vendors. It's no particular brands, and as Ted mentioned.... it's more a cat capacity issue.
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Old 11-28-2011, 10:16 PM   #177
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This was the tipping point for me..

May I ask someone to comb over this entire thread, find out who posted that HAS Melted cats, or an engine problem, and then provide the shop they received the work from?
I anticipate the response will rhyme with Serengeti. or Spaghetti, or Fast Eddie.. Or. well you get the point...





Also it's fun from time to time to be devil's advocate
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:26 AM   #178
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This is Not a New Problem by any stretch of the imagination, but as power levels continue to grow it will become an increasingly more frequent occurrence.

The solution is Simple, We need Cats Twice as Big as currently available to handle the Volume of Exhaust gases produced by a supercharged engine.

Maybe we could do Quad Cats side by side
Now I would definitely try this if you design a kit for me
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:35 AM   #179
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My experience and perception has been similar to that of MarylandSpeed. I'm not a shop, and certainly have not seen the volume of vehicles that Jannetty or MarylandSpeed or any other major LS shop has, but I've been active in the community since 2002 or so when I started modifying and tuning my LS1. This is the first time I've seen "+600 RWHP/FI = cat death" put forth as a pervasive and inevitable problem. It seems to be a popular idea here, but I have not seen a similar push on any other online community dealing with LS motors, many of which are far more technical than what's to be found on Camaro5. And, from what I've seen here, there is nothing qualitative or quantitative enough (in my opinion) to definitively prove that it is a problem, or what exactly is the cause of the problem.

I have personally seen damaged cats behind modded motors. I've seen them come out of NA cars making 400 RWHP, let alone FI cars making over 600. I think we can all agree that the more power you're making, the more potential exists to stress a cat and cause a failure. However again, I have yet to see anything definitive to support the idea that aftermarket cats are fundamentally unable to survive power levels above 600 RWHP. Like MarylandSpeed mentioned, this has not popped up as an issue anywhere else but here (that I have seen, at least), which leads me to think that it may be more smoke than fire.

As has been mentioned, there's been a lot of talk about cats failing, but few actual examples from people posting on this forum. Before you can start making any conclusions, you have to have more concrete information- beginning with how many people who are running cats behind a modified motor have actually experienced a failure. Out of those failures, what is the power level? FI or NA? What does the tune look like? Who manufactured the cat? What kind of loading? Etc. There are many variables that can lead to cat failures, and they have to be eliminated before you can conclude that the problem is a hard limitation of current aftermarket catalytic converters in general.

From what I have personally seen, and gathered from the larger pool of collective experience to be found online, my gut feeling is that cat failures are not nearly as pervasive a problem as is being portrayed in this forum. Furthermore, I think that cat failures at the quoted power levels are mostly due to shoddy manufacturing and improper tuning. If someone were to trace failed cats, they might find that many of them were sourced from the same manufacturer (not ARH or Kooks or whoever, but who THEY buy the cats from).

On the tuning side of things, I can tell you that as a tuner, one of the first things you usually do is disable COT protection before you start tuning. The last thing you want is for COT to kick in and knock you into open loop fixed fueling when you're trying to dial in the MAF or VE tables. I can also tell you, from experience, that many tuners never re-enable COT protection when they've finished, even if the car still has cats. On your average heads/cam LS car, this usually doesn't result in problems. However, when you start talking higher power levels and FI, I can easily see a lack of COT protection melting cats that are otherwise fine. I would also not put it out of the realm of possibility that stock COT protection tuning is not aggressive enough to adequately protect catalytic converters at those kinds of power levels. But again, you would have to look at the tuning involved in cat failure cases to be able to start drawing any conclusions there.

I guess what I'm saying is that at this point, based on my experience and what I've been exposed to in the LS community at large, I'm not buying that aftermarket catalytic converters are inherently insufficiently designed to be able to handle +600 RWHP and FI. There simply isn't any information presented to bear that out in any qualitative or quantitative way. HOWEVER, if at some point someone is able to definitely show that there is a real problem, I'll be the first to take a hard look at the fact that I'm running cats on my car.
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Old 11-29-2011, 04:41 AM   #180
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Exactly what I've been hearing. Also above 600 RWHP seems to surface alot. Lingenfelter has also seen the same on high boost and long tubes. I believe the quote was "there isn't a cat on the market that will handle this much power". The links I posted have Kooks high flow on a few.... but I've heard of numerous vendors. It's no particular brands, and as Ted mentioned.... it's more a cat capacity issue.
I have all LPE parts on my supercharged car including the shortblock and my cats are fine. This is likely making 750-800 at the engine. I am not buying into the cat capacity issue. If that was the case, a Shelby or ZR1 would have cats the size of trashcans underneath. Also, the high flow cats that come with Kooks are VERY high flow. As in I can look through them and make a picture out the other end. This is not a matter of them being unable to flow the amount of exhaust that is moving through the cats. If that were the case, there would be power difference between catted, and uncatted setups in terms of power, which there really is not. At the end of the day, it is really the cat tells the story of what happened to it. It is that the exhaust gas temps are too high (i.e. lean) the cat is melted. If the car is too rich, and the fuel is contaminating the cat. I have a nice poster I will take a picture of today that explains all this.

Rather than saying there is no cat that can survive 600HP, maybe we can consider that tuning a car at 600HP is where getting it right gets much harder.
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Old 11-29-2011, 10:10 AM   #181
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On an interesting note: My HPT finally got out here to the desert today. I hooked it up and pulled the canned tune from Whipple off the PCM so I could take a look and start modifying.

COT protection is DISABLED in the canned tune from Whipple.
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:00 AM   #182
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My experience and perception has been similar to that of MarylandSpeed. I'm not a shop, and certainly have not seen the volume of vehicles that Jannetty or MarylandSpeed or any other major LS shop has, but I've been active in the community since 2002 or so when I started modifying and tuning my LS1. This is the first time I've seen "+600 RWHP/FI = cat death" put forth as a pervasive and inevitable problem. It seems to be a popular idea here, but I have not seen a similar push on any other online community dealing with LS motors, many of which are far more technical than what's to be found on Camaro5. And, from what I've seen here, there is nothing qualitative or quantitative enough (in my opinion) to definitively prove that it is a problem, or what exactly is the cause of the problem.

I have personally seen damaged cats behind modded motors. I've seen them come out of NA cars making 400 RWHP, let alone FI cars making over 600. I think we can all agree that the more power you're making, the more potential exists to stress a cat and cause a failure. However again, I have yet to see anything definitive to support the idea that aftermarket cats are fundamentally unable to survive power levels above 600 RWHP. Like MarylandSpeed mentioned, this has not popped up as an issue anywhere else but here (that I have seen, at least), which leads me to think that it may be more smoke than fire.

As has been mentioned, there's been a lot of talk about cats failing, but few actual examples from people posting on this forum. Before you can start making any conclusions, you have to have more concrete information- beginning with how many people who are running cats behind a modified motor have actually experienced a failure. Out of those failures, what is the power level? FI or NA? What does the tune look like? Who manufactured the cat? What kind of loading? Etc. There are many variables that can lead to cat failures, and they have to be eliminated before you can conclude that the problem is a hard limitation of current aftermarket catalytic converters in general.

From what I have personally seen, and gathered from the larger pool of collective experience to be found online, my gut feeling is that cat failures are not nearly as pervasive a problem as is being portrayed in this forum. Furthermore, I think that cat failures at the quoted power levels are mostly due to shoddy manufacturing and improper tuning. If someone were to trace failed cats, they might find that many of them were sourced from the same manufacturer (not ARH or Kooks or whoever, but who THEY buy the cats from).

On the tuning side of things, I can tell you that as a tuner, one of the first things you usually do is disable COT protection before you start tuning. The last thing you want is for COT to kick in and knock you into open loop fixed fueling when you're trying to dial in the MAF or VE tables. I can also tell you, from experience, that many tuners never re-enable COT protection when they've finished, even if the car still has cats. On your average heads/cam LS car, this usually doesn't result in problems. However, when you start talking higher power levels and FI, I can easily see a lack of COT protection melting cats that are otherwise fine. I would also not put it out of the realm of possibility that stock COT protection tuning is not aggressive enough to adequately protect catalytic converters at those kinds of power levels. But again, you would have to look at the tuning involved in cat failure cases to be able to start drawing any conclusions there.

I guess what I'm saying is that at this point, based on my experience and what I've been exposed to in the LS community at large, I'm not buying that aftermarket catalytic converters are inherently insufficiently designed to be able to handle +600 RWHP and FI. There simply isn't any information presented to bear that out in any qualitative or quantitative way. HOWEVER, if at some point someone is able to definitely show that there is a real problem, I'll be the first to take a hard look at the fact that I'm running cats on my car.
I agree with your assessment to a point, We have seen 3-5 sets of cats fail (all from guys who either Race or Use the Power Alot) out of the several hundred we have sold installed and tuned and that is enough to cause concern.

I always enable COT and actually adjust it to make the cats last longer.

Again it has a lot to do with Duty Cycle, it doesn't take 600 HP to drive down the Highway, More like 30-50 HP.

There are MANY Factors in the Tuning that affect Cat Temps and I am Intimately Familiar with All of them.

Ted.
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:25 AM   #183
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Duty cycle/loading is definitely a big factor. The cats that fried at 400 RWHP NA that I referred to above came out of a car that was mostly used for running road courses.

I want to quote out the below specifically:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING View Post
I agree with your assessment to a point, We have seen 3-5 sets of cats fail (all from guys who either Race or Use the Power Alot) out of the several hundred we have sold installed and tuned and that is enough to cause concern.
Maybe the disconnect with some of us is simply what failure threshold is a cause for concern? If I assume several hundred = 300, than with your numbers quoted above it represents a 1-1.6% failure rate. Considering the fact that we're talking about significantly modified engines being subjected to rigorous use, a certain potential for part failure comes with the territory. I'd actually consider a cat failure rate of 1-1.6% to be really good, all things considered. Not statistically insignificant, but not high enough to deter someone from putting cats on their +600 RWHP supercharged motor if they feel they need to for emissions/smell/sound/whatever.
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:02 PM   #184
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Can some make HD high flow cats that will last longer ?
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:52 PM   #185
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Let's all agree to disagree on why cats fail. The fact still remains they are failing. We need a solution, the people making the cats should do some R&D and find out exactly why they are failing and come up with a cat for high HP cars period. We obviously need them for emmissions, noise ,smell etc. and there is obviously a market for it.
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Old 11-29-2011, 02:41 PM   #186
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I think you're missing the point that some of us are trying to make. No one is questioning that sometimes cats fail. They fail on NA cars making less power as well as FI cars making +600 RWHP. We basically agree on what causes cats to fail. What we disagree on is that these isolated failures are anything but isolated failures, and that they represent a core design insufficiency. Taking the sample numbers posted by Ted, you have approximately a 1 in 100 chance of melting an aftermarket high flow cat (question for Ted: are those numbers inclusive of all modded cars you've done that have cats, or just the supercharged ones?). That's not a figure that an aftermarket cat manufacturer is going to look at and decide that they have to do a redesign, I'm sorry to say.

We're not treading any new ground here. We're not pushing these parts to previously un-reached levels of power. If cat failure is such a big problem, why is Camaro5 the only place you'll find an 8-page crisis thread about it? I couldn't find anything similar on LS1Tech, and I have yet to see anything like this on any other LSx forum. People have been meeting and exceeding these power levels on LS motors, using these same parts, for years, and trust me- if cats were melting off of everyone's +600 HP supercharged motors, there would damn well be EPIC threads about it on LS1Tech. A single run of TSP ported Dart heads that had oil burning issues (I seem to recall that the problem was the Dart valve stem seals, and not TSP's) generated a 10-page thread over there, so believe me when I tell you that if there was a problem with mass cat failures on FI motors, we would have heard about it by now.
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:06 PM   #187
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So what your saying is that the C5 members have a mob mentality Don't get me wrong you sound like you know your stuff. I think there was a post here where the guy found a few more pages on the subject, so this is not new.

If i didn't have Hi Flow cats and read this thread, knowing my chances are 1 in 100 that i melt them with my FI car, i wouldn't take those odds, and just get mid pipes
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