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Old 04-12-2009, 11:24 AM   #1
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Camaro SS Questions. 500-600hp possible on stock internals?

Hi guys I am thinking about a Camaro SS but have some questions on this car coming out. I am new to this forum and I figure from reading some of these threads you guys know this car inside and out would be less time consuming than trying to use the search as I am new to this car so any help would be appreciated.

6.2 Motor SS/RS 2SS

Is the RA forged?
What is the exact CR?
What RPM redline is this motor safely capable of in your opinion?
Anyone know the real stock RWHP/RWTQ numbers on this car yet?
On the manual & clutch how good is this trans, how much rwhp do you think it can handle (FI) and happen to know what the 1st gear ratio is?
On the rear end whats your opinion on the quality of it stock and again how much rwhp do you think it can handle in stock form with a girdle?

The reason for the questions if I were to get a Camaro which I am considering I would be looking to sc it (poss Techco sc) and not looking to make crazy high rwhp but would want to make aleast around 550-600rwhp if possible on stock internals and drive train if possible.

TIA
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:31 AM   #2
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2008 "LS3" 6.2L V8 (LS3) Car 41007
Type: 6.2L Gen IV V8 Small Block
Displacement: 6162cc (376.0 ci)
Compression ratio: 10.7:1
Valve configuration: overhead valves (2 valves per cylinder)
Assembly site: St. Catharines, Ontario
Valve lifters: hydraulic roller
Firing order: 1 - 8 - 7 - 2 - 6 - 5 - 4 - 3
Bore x stroke: 103.25 x 92mm
Fuel system: sequential fuel injection
Fuel type: premium fuel recommended
Engine Orientation Longitudinal
Valves per cylinder 2
Bore Center (mm) 111.76
Engine Mass TBD
Applications: Horsepower: hp ( kw )
Chevrolet Corvette 430 hp (321kW) @ 5900 rpm SAE CERTIFIED
Chevrolet Corvette w/ Optional Exhaust 436 hp (325kW) @ 5900 rpm SAE CERTIFIED
Applications: Torque: lb-ft. ( Nm )
Chevrolet Corvette 424 lb-ft (575Nm) @ 4600 rpm SAE CERTIFIED
Chevrolet Corvette w/ Optional Exhaust 428 lb-ft (580Nm) @ 4600 rpm SAE CERTIFIED
Fuel shut off: 6600 rpm
Emissions controls: catalytic converter
three-way catalyst
positive crankcase ventilation
Materials:
Block: cast aluminum
Cylinder head: cast aluminum
Intake manifold: composite
Exhaust manifold: cast nodular iron
Main bearing caps: powder metal
Crankshaft: cast iron with undercut and rolled fillets
Camshaft: hollow steel
Connecting rods: forged powder metal
Additional features: extended life spark plugs
extended life coolant
oil level sensor
Oil Life System
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:31 AM   #3
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Hi welcome. Come over to the V8 subforum for the info.
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:34 AM   #4
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Hi welcome. Come over to the V8 subforum for the info.
Thanks and is it ok to post this again in that forum with the mods /rules?
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:37 AM   #5
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:39 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladkgb View Post
2008 "LS3" 6.2L V8 (LS3) Car 41007
Type: 6.2L Gen IV V8 Small Block
Displacement: 6162cc (376.0 ci)
Compression ratio: 10.7:1
Valve configuration: overhead valves (2 valves per cylinder)
Assembly site: St. Catharines, Ontario
Valve lifters: hydraulic roller
Firing order: 1 - 8 - 7 - 2 - 6 - 5 - 4 - 3
Bore x stroke: 103.25 x 92mm
Fuel system: sequential fuel injection
Fuel type: premium fuel recommended
Engine Orientation Longitudinal
Valves per cylinder 2
Bore Center (mm) 111.76
Engine Mass TBD
Applications: Horsepower: hp ( kw )
Chevrolet Corvette 430 hp (321kW) @ 5900 rpm SAE CERTIFIED
Chevrolet Corvette w/ Optional Exhaust 436 hp (325kW) @ 5900 rpm SAE CERTIFIED
Applications: Torque: lb-ft. ( Nm )
Chevrolet Corvette 424 lb-ft (575Nm) @ 4600 rpm SAE CERTIFIED
Chevrolet Corvette w/ Optional Exhaust 428 lb-ft (580Nm) @ 4600 rpm SAE CERTIFIED
Fuel shut off: 6600 rpm
Emissions controls: catalytic converter
three-way catalyst
positive crankcase ventilation
Materials:
Block: cast aluminum
Cylinder head: cast aluminum
Intake manifold: composite
Exhaust manifold: cast nodular iron
Main bearing caps: powder metal
Crankshaft: cast iron with undercut and rolled fillets
Camshaft: hollow steel
Connecting rods: forged powder metal
Additional features: extended life spark plugs
extended life coolant
oil level sensor
Oil Life System
Thanks if those numbers are accurate (w/o dyno rwhp) about 360rwhp so 550+rwhp would be possible but the 10.7 cr could be a road block?
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:45 AM   #7
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just use good fuel, and a better tune, thats whats important.
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:46 AM   #8
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Hi mods one of you guys edited/added the following in my title thread "500-600hp on stock internals"

Thanks but could edit it to say 550rwhp-600rwhp on stock internals per my question in my first post? TIA
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:51 AM   #9
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just use good fuel, and a better tune, thats whats important.

So are saying in your opinion you could run around 15psi on a 10.7 cr to make around 550rwhp-600rwhp?

What is your opinion of the highest psi you could run on a 10.7 cr in this motor and is the RA forged in this motor?

Last edited by Gone; 04-12-2009 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 04-12-2009, 12:12 PM   #10
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I do not believe the pistons are forged, but the crank is.
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Old 04-12-2009, 12:47 PM   #11
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I do not believe the pistons are forged, but the crank is.
Detroitboy - When someone is nice enough to look up and post the specs of something, you could at least take the time to read it before throwing around false info.

It's cast nodular iron. The pistons are cast. The rods are forged powdered metal.

There's a video of a Camaro being dynoed somewhere around here. It put down 364rwhp I believe.

I've read from several people over at LS1tech.com that 7000 RPM should be safe with the stock rotating assembly. I'd probably update the valvetrain, though, just to be safe.

The trans is the new TR6060, the successor to the T56. I believe it's rated at 650 lb/ft of torque.

The stock rear - no one really knows. Most people on here are guessing around 550, though I've seen some guessing 750. I think that's a little high. I don't know of too many parts that have ever come on a stock car to handle 750 hp. There are a few, but I doubt the Camaro will be one.

600rwhp on stock drivetrain and internals? Sure. I doubt you're going to break it on your first day out. I wouldn't expect it to live for very long though, that's a little greedy. You gotta pay to play, I believe is the general expression around here.

If you're going forced induction, why would you need to rev to 7000 anyway?
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Old 04-12-2009, 01:34 PM   #12
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Detroitboy - When someone is nice enough to look up and post the specs of something, you could at least take the time to read it before throwing around false info.

It's cast nodular iron. The pistons are cast. The rods are forged powdered metal.

There's a video of a Camaro being dynoed somewhere around here. It put down 364rwhp I believe.

I've read from several people over at LS1tech.com that 7000 RPM should be safe with the stock rotating assembly. I'd probably update the valvetrain, though, just to be safe.

The trans is the new TR6060, the successor to the T56. I believe it's rated at 650 lb/ft of torque.

The stock rear - no one really knows. Most people on here are guessing around 550, though I've seen some guessing 750. I think that's a little high. I don't know of too many parts that have ever come on a stock car to handle 750 hp. There are a few, but I doubt the Camaro will be one.

600rwhp on stock drivetrain and internals? Sure. I doubt you're going to break it on your first day out. I wouldn't expect it to live for very long though, that's a little greedy. You gotta pay to play, I believe is the general expression around here.

If you're going forced induction, why would you need to rev to 7000 anyway?

Ok some good info but UTHA68 I am not seeing what the piston material is listed in that spec sheet? But your saying for 100% sure they are cast and not forged?
Ok wow I didn't know it was a 6060 nice trans stock way to go Chevy That would/should also mean a 2.97 first gear then. On the rear end I was wondering if it could hold 550-600rwhp guess we will have to see 750hp imo would find very hard to believe unless Chevy really builds a really strong stock rear end!! I am hoping wondering if it can handle 550-600rwhp safely should I get one.

Yes shouldn't break in one day but hope with a good tune the motor should last a decent amount of time on barrowed time. But the question I am wondering is what is a safe rwhp range would that be on this motor without pushing it high and give it some longevity. That is what I am wondering I was thinking with ci's 550-600rwhp might be there but with a 10.7 I am not so sure now running a sc. I am thinking maybe around 12psi max on 10.7, if the motor is not forged (cast pistons & Powder rods?) then maybe 8-10psi max which would imo put this car at around 450-500rwhp which imo is to low for what I want on stock internals.
But I am not sure of the above and is why I am here for some help on this car and motor.

I did not say I want to go 7k on redline 6.5 would be fine with me just asking how high this motor could go safely. I have had a couple previous sc cars have run 6.4 .6.6K on a stock motor with out blowing up. But imo redline 7k is not consider that high imo going sc. On a centi sc 7K would be very nice since it builds hp @ tq the higher you go in the rpm's and 7K would nice imo.

Thanks for your input it was helpful!
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Old 04-12-2009, 01:58 PM   #13
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"The LS3 has a forged crank, hypereutectic pistons and powdered connecting rods." (some other poster)

Agree completely with the pistons and rods you mention, but according to John Rydzewski the LS3's Assistant Chief Engineer (ACE) the crank is cast. (Nodular Iron, but cast)

"LS3's nodular iron, rolled-fillet-journal crankshaft is similar to those used in LS1 and LS6 engines except for counter weights altered to rebalance the engine for a slightly heavier piston."

550-600 rwhp means the crank hp is anywhere from 10 - 20% higher depending on drivetrain loss. Puts the crank hp range you are looking for between 605 and 720 hp. Can it be done? Yes. Many have. For how long? Boosted or Normally Aspirated? Nitrous? Why 7,000 rpm? Engines live a lot longer at 6,000.

The ability for the tranny and rear to handle higher hp is irrelevant unless you plan on putting sticky tires and suspension mods. The stock tires are your safety valve and will break loose way before the drivetrain gives it up... It comes down to how are you really going to use the extra hp you are looking for?

Just some things to think about. But hey Gone, enjoy it no matter what you do !
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Old 04-12-2009, 02:33 PM   #14
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"The LS3 has a forged crank, hypereutectic pistons and powdered connecting rods." (some other poster)

Agree completely with the pistons and rods you mention, but according to John Rydzewski the LS3's Assistant Chief Engineer (ACE) the crank is cast. (Nodular Iron, but cast)

"LS3's nodular iron, rolled-fillet-journal crankshaft is similar to those used in LS1 and LS6 engines except for counter weights altered to rebalance the engine for a slightly heavier piston."

550-600 rwhp means the crank hp is anywhere from 10 - 20% higher depending on drivetrain loss. Puts the crank hp range you are looking for between 605 and 720 hp. Can it be done? Yes. Many have. For how long? Boosted or Normally Aspirated? Nitrous?
The ability for the tranny and rear to handle higher hp is irrelevant unless you plan on putting sticky tires and suspension mods. The stock tires are your safety valve and will break loose way before the drivetrain gives it up... It comes down to how are you really going to use the extra hp you are looking for?

Just some things to think about. But hey Gone, enjoy it no matter what you do !
Quote:
Why 7,000 rpm? Engines live a lot longer at 6,000.
Ok on your 7K rpm I never posted I wanted to go 7k (check my first post) just asked what was the the safest redline this motor could go to. My response to UTHA68 on how it would be of a benifit if running a centi sc was directed per his question.


Quote:
The ability for the tranny and rear to handle higher hp is irrelevant unless you plan on putting sticky tires and suspension mods. The stock tires are your safety valve and will break loose way before the drivetrain gives it up... It comes down to how are you really going to use the extra hp you are looking for?

No offense meant to you but if I was going to run street tires I would not be looking to make 550rwhp-600rwhp (650-700hp) with a TS sc. From past experience the car would be useless on the street or on the track running street tires making this power with a TS sc and would be a waste of power. You have to run sticky times on this setup making this much power running a TS sc or you just wasting your time and money.

But thanks for your input. It is sounding like to me imo from the l info I have seen so far due to the internals and cr 500rwhp (around 575hp) looks is going to be safe range/level on barrowed time with some decent longevity on this motor with a good tune.

My friends and I always talk in rwhp seems you guys talk in hp no big deal but just though I'd mention it.

Last edited by Gone; 04-12-2009 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 04-12-2009, 04:25 PM   #15
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Cool stuff Gone... I didn't know about the tires/traction and rpm. There are a lot of car guys that talk about hp just to talk. You obviously are NOT one of those types. If you don't mind yanking the motor, here is something else to consider. Hope you have fun no matter what.

To get an LS3 to support 800 crank hp is pretty cheap, but you have to be willing to yank the engine. Change the pistons to a JE (or comparable) forged in the 8.0 to 8.8 range (your preference) and change the rods to Callies Compstar (or comparable). Put it back together and add the boost of your choice. The crank is cast (nodular iron), but like a Scat 9000 undercut and with fillets. Not forged, but tougher than people think. The LS3 is a 6 bolt aluminum block, with 4 bolts per cylinder clamping so past 800 hp, they may "leak" without O-ringing. In addition, pushing it past this level you may run into problems of spliting the sleeves and the material behind the sleeves.
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Old 04-12-2009, 04:47 PM   #16
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From GMPP-
LS3 6.2L Tech Specs Part Number: 1920199
Balanced: Internal
Block Part Number: 12584727
Block Type: Cast aluminum with 6-bolt main caps
Bore x stroke (in): 4.06 x 3.62 (103.25 x 92mm)
Camshaft duration (@.050 in): 204 degree intake / 211 degree exhaust
Camshaft Part Number: 12603844
Camshaft Type: Hydraulic roller
Compression ratio: 10.7:1
Connecting rods (P/N 12617570): Powdered metal
Crankshaft (P/N 12597569): Nodular iron
Cylinder heads (P/N 12598594): LS3 rectangle port; as cast with 68cc chambers
Displacement (cu in): 376 cu in (6.2L)
Engine type: LS Series Gen IV small-block V-8
Maximum recommended rpm: 6600
Pistons Part Number: 19165089
Pistons Type: Hypereutectic aluminum
Recommended fuel: 92 octane
Reluctor wheel: 58X
Rocker arm ratio: 1.7:1
Rocker arms exhaust Part Number: 10214664
Rocker arms exhaust Type: Investment cast, roller trunnion
Rocker arms intake Part Number: 12569167
Rocker arms intake Type: Investment cast, roller trunnion
Valve Lift (in): .551 intake / .522 exhaust
Valve size (in): 2.16 intake / 1.59 exhaust

I believe somewhere on this board Scott said the Rear End has been tested to 600ft-lb of torque
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Old 04-12-2009, 04:47 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Gone View Post
Ok some good info but UTHA68 I am not seeing what the piston material is listed in that spec sheet? But your saying for 100% sure they are cast and not forged?
Pistons
The LS9 is the only production LS engine with forged aluminum pistons; all the
other engines use hypereutectic (cast) aluminum alloy pistons—varied mostly
by diameter to accommodate various bore sizes. LS cast pistons shouldn’t
be used on applications greater than approximately 550 horsepower. The LS7
piston’s inner bracing and larger pin diameter require the use of the matching
LS7 connecting rod.

Straight from the GMPP Catalog. There you go. I wouldn't expect the internals to last long if you go much above that. And for stock parts, that's pretty impressive, IMHO.

Edit: http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/_r...09_Catalog.pdf Page 191 of the book, page 97 as the .pdf file.
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Old 04-12-2009, 04:53 PM   #18
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Cool stuff Gone... I didn't know about the tires/traction and rpm. There are a lot of car guys that talk about hp just to talk. You obviously are NOT one of those types. If you don't mind yanking the motor, here is something else to consider. Hope you have fun no matter what.

To get an LS3 to support 800 crank hp is pretty cheap, but you have to be willing to yank the engine. Change the pistons to a JE (or comparable) forged in the 8.0 to 8.8 range (your preference) and change the rods to Callies Compstar (or comparable). Put it back together and add the boost of your choice. The crank is cast (nodular iron), but like a Scat 9000 undercut and with fillets. Not forged, but tougher than people think. The LS3 is a 6 bolt aluminum block, with 4 bolts per cylinder clamping so past 800 hp, they may "leak" without O-ringing. In addition, pushing it past this level you may run into problems of spliting the sleeves and the material behind the sleeves.

Thanks

What I am trying to see if I bought a Camaro SS could I just add a TS SC (motor wise) and with what sounds like a nice motor & ci wise plus a very decent trans and if I could make around min 550rwhp-600rwhp on the stock motor with some decent longevity. I would want to go solid mid 10's on this setup if the above was possible w/ DR's and few susp upgrades. I do not want to lose to any aftermarket sc newer Mustangs GT's on the street( or stock z06's) either. I would want to be able to beat them 95% (sc stangs) of the time them or stay door to door on the street the other 5% which imo would be fun. I do not want to yank the motor to rebuild i just want to add a TS screw to the stock motor with decent longevity. If the above would be possible on a stock motor I would seriuosly consider getting a Camaro SS.
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:07 PM   #19
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Pistons
The LS9 is the only production LS engine with forged aluminum pistons; all the
other engines use hypereutectic (cast) aluminum alloy pistons—varied mostly
by diameter to accommodate various bore sizes. LS cast pistons shouldn’t
be used on applications greater than approximately 550 horsepower. The LS7
piston’s inner bracing and larger pin diameter require the use of the matching
LS7 connecting rod.

Straight from the GMPP Catalog. There you go. I wouldn't expect the internals to last long if you go much above that. And for stock parts, that's pretty impressive, IMHO.

Edit: http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/_r...09_Catalog.pdf Page 191 of the book, page 97 as the .pdf file.
UTHA68 oh man I have to run out now but when I get back I am going to have look at you link and do some research that looks promising if true then the next weak link might be the powder rods but they might hold decent enough depending on accouple things. Hmm things are looking up for possible 550rwhp on a stock motor in decent safe range aleast or maybe? By any chance anyone have or know of any pictures on the net (link) of the rods and side view of the piston in this motor I'd like to look at the landings on the piston esp the top one?
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:11 PM   #20
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Thanks

What I am trying to see if I bought a Camaro SS could I just add a TS SC (motor wise) and with what sounds like a nice motor & ci wise plus a very decent trans and if I could make around min 550rwhp-600rwhp on the stock motor with some decent longevity. I would want to go solid mid 10's on this setup if the above was possible w/ DR's and few susp upgrades. I do not want to lose to any aftermarket sc newer Mustangs GT's on the street( or stock z06's) either. I would want to be able to beat them 95% (sc stangs) of the time them or stay door to door on the street the other 5% which imo would be fun. I do not want to yank the motor to rebuild i just want to add a TS screw to the stock motor with decent longevity. If the above would be possible on a stock motor I would seriuosly consider getting a Camaro SS.
These engines are not built for forced induction. You're wanting this engine to make 175-225 hp more than stock. I think that's asking a bit much. Yes, a twin screw can make that much, but it's going to require more boost than that stock engine would take. I guess you could use 110 octane racing fuel to prevent detonation, but then you're looking at blown head gaskets from the extra cylinder pressures.

Ford GT 500's have forged internals and a low compression ratio, specifically to handle the boost pressures from the supercharger. If you're wanting any kind of longevity from a supercharged LS3 engine that's making 650 horsepower, it's going to need to be built. That's just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:20 PM   #21
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Excellent read:
http://www.camarohomepage.com/ls3/index.htm



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Old 04-12-2009, 05:29 PM   #22
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These engines are not built for forced induction. You're wanting this engine to make 175-225 hp more than stock. I think that's asking a bit much. Yes, a twin screw can make that much, but it's going to require more boost than that stock engine would take. I guess you could use 110 octane racing fuel to prevent detonation, but then you're looking at blown head gaskets from the extra cylinder pressures.

Ford GT 500's have forged internals and a low compression ratio, specifically to handle the boost pressures from the supercharger. If you're wanting any kind of longevity from a supercharged LS3 engine that's making 650 horsepower, it's going to need to be built. That's just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.
Yes agreed the 10.7 cr (high) is what is a road block for running a sc at 13-15 psi. But you can drop the psi on the TS SC to around 6-10 psi have to look for the sweet spot and should not be a problem on this motor if the stock piston & rods are decent and might result in making around 550rwhp with decent longevity. I have seen many sc Mustang GT's with stock motor w/9.8cr running 12psi since 05 and quite a few running 15psi with some decent longvity.

So it is possible to run a sc on this motor with 10.7 cr just have to run a lower psi sc pulley due to the SS cr for decent longevity. I am just a sc person love running ts sc's and find it the simplest way to get decent power and have a fast car..
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:32 PM   #23
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You are the man!!

I will be back later today (leaving now) to do some research will post my opinion and listen what you guys think or have to say.
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Old 04-12-2009, 06:01 PM   #24
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Turbo Thread see post #5 and click on the associated links...

530rwhp was just achieved on a G8 GXP on 6psi with TT kit.
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Old 04-12-2009, 06:12 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pharmd View Post
Turbo Thread see post #5 and click on the associated links...

530rwhp was just achieved on a G8 GXP on 6psi with TT kit.
Turbos are much more efficient. I would be very surprised to see that much horsepower out of 6psi with a supercharger. More like 500 if everything else is stock. The OP was talking about over 10psi, which I don't think is doable on stock internals. Not for long anyway.

But MAN that G8 is SWEEEEEEET.
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