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Old 04-12-2009, 05:17 PM   #1
VenomZ302
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Second thoughts... HELP?

So I was talking to my dad this weekend. He's basically where I get my interest in cars and we were talking about the Camaro. He knows I'm planning on getting the LS3 model, but as we were talking, he seemed to be trying to talk me into getting the L99.

His reasoning is that, despite knowing how to drive a manual and owning a Porsche 911 (with a manual, of course), he gets tired of having to shift himself. This may be part of why he doesn't drive his 911 much. He also would consider it frustrating if he ever had to get someone else to drive his car, especially because most people he knows would drive automatics and either don't know how to drive a manual or aren't very good at it.

I'll admit it. I've never owned a manual, but I can drive one with a bit of a learning curve. I've got lots of questions about the right way to do things with a manual transmission and I think I'd genuinely like to have a manual Camaro.

However, I don't know that I'll get tired of it and I don't knew if I'll like it every day. On the flip side, maybe I'll love it. I also don't know whether the desire to drive a manual Camaro is from the assumption that a fast car should have a manual transmission or if there's more to it.

Thoughts on how I can figure this one out before my order's pulled? Thanks in advance.
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:22 PM   #2
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I made the switch 20,000 miles ago and I don't regret it. It's rare that I find it annoying enough that I wish I was in an automatic. It does happen sometimes, but if I only had an automatic then wishing I had a manual would happen every day.

How do you feel about it? Have you always wanted to drive manual?

What kind of traffic do you drive in? Part of the reason it works so well for me is that my driving is mostly rural/small town roads and low-traffic highway. When I get into the city I enjoy it but if I drove in the city every day I might not. When it comes to traffic jams, though, nothing is fun to drive.
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:40 PM   #3
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My first manual was a silverado a 94 I think, now thats no sports car but was still just as fun to drive. I bought it not knowing how to drive stick at all, I stalled out maybe 3 times, was really nervous trying to get to work one first day. Never used a parking lot never burned up a clutch. For different reasons had to go back to an auto(low on cash and received stepmoms old saturn free of charge), but told myself if I ever purchased something new or used it was going to be a manual. I currently drive a civic si 6 speed obviously and i love it and would never I repeat NEVER have another automatic. Sports car or other I will always pick a manual. Only time I ever wish I didn't have it was when i sprained my left ankle and maybe when I am stuck in bumper to bumper traffic, luckily I don't have either of those happening very often. And nothing is better than keeping it in low gear right as you punch out of that bumper to bumper traffic and winding each gear out as you escape down the road. I haven't gotten in any manual/auto discussions and I don't want to start any fights but I am a believer a sports car isn't a sports car unless its a stick. If everything goes well camaro will hold me over till I can get a vette (Z06) down the road and I sure wouldn't think of gettting an automatic vette thats almost sickiening. For me there wasn't a choice for camaro either as far as I am concerned shouldn't even offer auto, well ok thats not true but its definitely not for me. Especially since there is additional cost involved.
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Old 04-12-2009, 05:57 PM   #4
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It's nothing about how to drive a stick. He said auto so give the man the auto. Resale value higher go look at used cars with and without auto.

Here is simulating a stick in the city. Find a large brick wall. Now...
walk up real close to the wall about 4 feet. Ok..

Stand there for an hour while just shaking your left leg back and forth like your on elimination in survivor.

This is the joy of drive to work and what not in a big stupid city with spanish owned toll roads.

That's what a stick is to me now. It's not the car or the person.. It's the people.. they are stupid.. not the one.
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Old 04-12-2009, 06:06 PM   #5
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jpsuper, I have to respectfully disagree. I, too, have stayed out of these auto/manual discussions in the past, but I get a little worked up when people make comments like "a sports car isn't a sports car unless it's a stick."

So you're telling me the new Ferarri F430 with the sequential gear box isn't a sports car? It pulls off upshifts in 25 milliseconds. That's .025 seconds. I doubt you, or anyone else on the planet, could even come close to that.

Venom, PLEASE don't make your decision based off opinions like that. That's analogous to saying "a pick up truck isn't a REAL pick up truck unless it's lifted with 44" tires." A lifted truck doesn't suit everyone's wants or needs. People who tell you you're less of a man or your car is less of a car because you drive an automatic are compensating for something and looking for affirmation of their "coolness" from others because they are, in their mind, in an elite group who possess the oh-so-rare talent of being able to drive a stick.

That being said, a stick can make you feel like you're in more control of the car. It gives you faster response in acceleration because you don't have to wait for the transmission to downshift, but this shouldn't be a problem in the Camaro's TapShift auto because you can select the gear you want. It also gets more power to the wheels, but not enough for the average joe to notice.

It can also make you look like a fool. If you're starting on a steep hill at a stop light with a car behind you, and you don't let the clutch out fast enough and you roll into the car behind you, you look like a jackass. If you let it out too fast and stall, you look like a jackass. If you're not particularly smooth at starting and shifting, your passengers will make fun of you. Probably not to your face, but definitely in their heads. Your girlfriend would probably appreciate NOT having her head jerked back and forth between gear changes and at stop lights.

There are pros and cons. It all comes down to PERSONAL preference. Don't listen to your father or anyone on this forum. Go and test drive both versions. Or find friends with manuals. Better yet, try and talk your dad into letting you drive his Porsche (SWEET!). Drive it around for a couple hours and see what you think. My Z-71 is a manual. I grew up with it and that's what I'm used to. I don't even notice shifting in stop and go traffic. The only time it's a hassle is when I'm eating or talking on the phone (I know, I'm the cause of half the wrecks in the world, I'm sorry!). But I know a lot of people who hate being bothered with shifting, while I know others who enjoy it. I say get a reasonable amount of seat time in a manual and THEN make your decision. Because it's just that. YOUR decision.
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Old 04-12-2009, 06:08 PM   #6
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I agree with "theholycow" above. It all depends upon what type of traffic you deal with on a day to day basis. I considered the manual as well BUT I live inside the capitol beltway in the DC metro area. DC rates in the top 5 for the worst commute in the nation. My daily drive is bumper to bumper madness! There is no way frekkin' way I would drive a manual. If you are in an area that has hardly no traffic and is mostly highway then go for it.
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Old 04-12-2009, 06:25 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UsedTaHaveA68 View Post
That being said, a stick can make you feel like you're in more control of the car. It gives you faster response in acceleration because you don't have to wait for the transmission to downshift, but this shouldn't be a problem in the Camaro's TapShift auto because you can select the gear you want.
I never had any problem selecting gears with any of the non-paddle automatics I've driven. My 1987 Cadillac, 1997 Pontiac, and 2002 GMC had/have D-3-2-1 positions which are great for downshifting in advance for instant acceleration response. Other automatics I've driven had them, too. My 1980 Buick doesn't have four positions, but it doesn't have four gears either. I've never damaged a transmission in >500,000 miles of driving (including 180,000 on the GMC's 4L60E, a tranny known for breakage).

Still, the manual has distinct advantages: it's more fun, less maintenance (unless you're tough on the clutch), cheaper to repair, more obedient, and can be more efficient. I can't remember...is it cheaper to buy on the Camaro, or are they priced the same?
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Old 04-12-2009, 06:28 PM   #8
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I believe the auto is a $1200 option. So yes, one more pro in the manual box.
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Old 04-12-2009, 06:36 PM   #9
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With the manual it just seems your in more control of the car and having more fun.
Now if I had a brutal commute I might have to have the auto. At least the auto will
have tapshift. That's pretty sweet. I'm getting the manual, my wife's getting the auto next year when her lease is up.
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Old 04-12-2009, 06:46 PM   #10
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The Auto also has Variable Valve Timing and Active Fuel Management, whether these things interest you or not...
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Old 04-12-2009, 06:48 PM   #11
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The Auto also has Variable Valve Timing ...
That's only on the V6 model.
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Old 04-12-2009, 07:42 PM   #12
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Venom, PLEASE don't make your decision based off opinions like that.
Nah, I rarely (if ever) make decisions based purely on the opinions of others. That was the point of this:
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Originally Posted by VenomZ302 View Post
Thoughts on how I can figure this one out before my order's pulled?
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Originally Posted by UsedTaHaveA68 View Post
I say get a reasonable amount of seat time in a manual and THEN make your decision. Because it's just that. YOUR decision.
And that's probably the best answer for me.

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Originally Posted by theholycow View Post
What kind of traffic do you drive in? Part of the reason it works so well for me is that my driving is mostly rural/small town roads and low-traffic highway. When I get into the city I enjoy it but if I drove in the city every day I might not. When it comes to traffic jams, though, nothing is fun to drive.
I live in a city, but the traffic's not really that horrible very often. My main commute is a couple of miles to work in a steady flow of traffic. The only stops I have to make are traffic lights/stop signs.

Well, looks like I've got to find a way to rent/borrow a car with a manual for a day or two. Thanks for the responses, regardless of whether you answered the question 100% properly. (No offense intended for those who didn't.)
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Old 04-12-2009, 07:47 PM   #13
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Well, looks like I've got to find a way to rent/borrow a car with a manual for a day or two.
Sounds like a great idea, as long as you remember that it takes months to get comfortable with it and try to imagine what it's going to be like after you're good at it.
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Old 04-12-2009, 07:58 PM   #14
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Sounds like a great idea, as long as you remember that it takes months to get comfortable with it and try to imagine what it's going to be like after you're good at it.
Right, right. I guess I just need to make sure that a manual's going to feel right to me in the long run. I've got a buddy who told me I could practice on his old Mazda 626. Maybe I'll have to take him up on the offer sooner than later.

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Better yet, try and talk your dad into letting you drive his Porsche (SWEET!). Drive it around for a couple hours and see what you think.
Forgot to mention this... His '87 911 is actually what I learned on. Significantly harder than when I drove my brother's '03 G35 coupe. The lessons continued when my dad sold his '87 911 and bought a '97 911 Turbo with a computer tweak to push out 500 hp.

I don't recall ever driving the black convertible he got after getting rid of the Turbo, but I have driven his latest 911. I'm not sure of the year, but it's a 997 Carrera 4, similar to CGM (minus the blue flecks) in color. That was pretty easy to drive, except for my dad sitting in the passenger seat and saying "give it more gas" and "go ahead and go faster", even though I was already going 5 over the speed limit.
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Old 04-12-2009, 09:05 PM   #15
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That's only on the V6 model.
Did something change that I am not aware of???
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Old 04-13-2009, 12:05 AM   #16
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No I do believe that the L99 does have VVT.
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Old 04-13-2009, 12:24 AM   #17
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I don't know, I drive in heavy traffic all the time and ever since I started driving it's been a standard. Yeah, the first couple times it may hurt your leg but I guarantee after a week of it you won't even notice anymore.

Personally, I love driving a manual car and you couldn't pay me to take an automatic, but it's all personal preference.

Also, I've really never heard of someone getting tired of shifting; honestly it becomes second nature and you don't even realize you're shifting anymore.
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Old 04-13-2009, 02:04 AM   #18
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If you get a stick, just don't break your leg (like I did back in February) or somebody else is going to be driving your new Camaro while you ride shotgun. I was getting an SS automatic anyway, but if I get my car before it heals completely, at least I'd still be able to drive it off the lot myself. Now if I went the other way, can you imagine how miserable it'd be to not be able to have your car's "first" drive all to yourself?!
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Old 04-13-2009, 03:56 AM   #19
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Big factors that affected my decision to get an automatic:
1. Other people, at some point, will NEED to drive. Could be that I'm drunk, sick, injured, masturbating, or sleeping after a shift on a road trip.
2. There's no real practical advantage in normal driving to having a manual. To me, it's solely for fun.
3. Safety. Missing a gear, downshifting on accident, stalling, having to "plan" out each shift in my head beforehand (even if it's second nature), etc, are all possibilities that can easily end up in an accident. Also, say you are cruising in 6th gear on the highway and someone is wildly changing lanes into your lane, and you need to gun it out of the way very quickly. One stomp on the automatic pedal and you're out of trouble. Manuals force you to process more information than autos, and sometimes, that's exactly what you don't want.
4. The automatic has tap shifting. Not too bad.
5. Automatic start. Love it. I live in very hot weather, and am rather sensitive to cold. I want my car comfy when I get inside of it.
6. Straight up convenience. Make a list of all the things you do with a free hand while driving an auto, and then imagine it being impossible every time you need to shift.

Reasons to get a manual:
1. For fun.
2. For competitive driving.
3. To make it more difficult for your relatives/friends to drive it, therefore hopefully deterring them from asking to.

Hope this helps.
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Old 04-13-2009, 08:22 AM   #20
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Big factors that affected my decision to get an automatic:
Some good points, some that need a little more thought...

Quote:
1. Other people, at some point, will NEED to drive. Could be that I'm drunk, sick, injured, masturbating, or sleeping after a shift on a road trip.
That was a big concern that prevented me from getting a manual for 10 years. Finally I had enough of worrying about that and enough of listening to other people (wife, parents, etc) about what I should drive and really stopped to think about it. I found that nobody ever drives my car, even if I'm too tired and begging others to drive I'm always the one who has to drive. So, I got a manual.

Since then, for over a year, nobody has even needed to sit in my driver's seat to operate the radio, let alone to drive it. My wife wanted to learn, so she drove it to learn, and could drive it if necessary...but it just hasn't been necessary. She wants her next car to be manual but still doesn't want to drive my car.

Quote:
2. There's no real practical advantage in normal driving to having a manual. To me, it's solely for fun.
Very untrue. Cost is a very practical advantage. Purchase price, fuel economy (even if the EPA ratings are the same, the manual is easier to improve by changing your driving habits), maintenance costs.

Then there's towing, if you have a motorhome (I doubt many here do) you can tow a manual on a dolly or with all four wheels on the road, but not an automatic.

Quote:
3. Safety. Missing a gear, downshifting on accident, stalling, having to[...]
Mostly good points, but in reality they don't cause any actual accidents. A surefire way to tell is to check insurance rates. The insurance industry is in the business of knowing what correlates with increased claims and charging more for it.

The thing about needing to suddenly accelerate to avoid an accident is a bugaboo, commonly mentioned in many different types of discussions. The fact is that loads of people drive auto/manual cars/trucks that can't suddenly accelerate in any gear at all, and manage to remain safe.

Quote:
4. The automatic has tap shifting. Not too bad.
That's perfect if your only concern is easy gear selection. It's very practical and effective and will get you to your destination (or the finish line) in a big hurry.

If you want a different driving experience, not so much. Stuff like feeling the shifter pause while the synchros spin up or feeling the shifter slide in instantly when you double-clutched perfectly...you'll never get that.

Quote:
5. Automatic start. Love it. I live in very hot weather, and am rather sensitive to cold. I want my car comfy when I get inside of it.
6. Straight up convenience. Make a list of all the things you do with a free hand while driving an auto, and then imagine it being impossible every time you need to shift.
Those are really great arguments for the automatic.

Quote:
Reasons to get a manual:
2. For competitive driving.
No way. If you're more interested in results, get the auto. This isn't 1966, or even 1986. We're not talking about a 3 speed vacuum-operated automatic with a non-locking torque converter. Modern automatics really get the job done, and when you combine paddle shifters with an obedient computer (and maybe some aggressive locking of the torque converter) you get all the competitive advantages of both manual and automatic.
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Old 04-13-2009, 08:46 AM   #21
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I feel more in touch with my car when it's a manual. But now that I have a wife and kid, automatic just makes more sense because I never really get to enjoy driving anymore. I always am doing 2 or 3 things at once when I'm on the road and would not be able to deal with the manual at this point in my life...

Like others have said, make a list of the benefits of both and just go with which ever one makes more sense to you.
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Old 04-13-2009, 09:03 AM   #22
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I made the switch 20,000 miles ago and I don't regret it. It's rare that I find it annoying enough that I wish I was in an automatic. It does happen sometimes, but if I only had an automatic then wishing I had a manual would happen every day.

How do you feel about it? Have you always wanted to drive manual?

What kind of traffic do you drive in? Part of the reason it works so well for me is that my driving is mostly rural/small town roads and low-traffic highway. When I get into the city I enjoy it but if I drove in the city every day I might not. When it comes to traffic jams, though, nothing is fun to drive.
he is 100% right...im like you venom, first manual car this will be...and i live in nyc and the traffic if horrible but like he sed automatic or not traffic sux...and the main thing he sed that really hit home was those few times where u get annoyed will happen but if you get automatic ull be wishing u had manual everyday...there isnt a day that goes by that i dont wish my 300zx isnt stick...i enjoy driving and its not like i deliver pizza opr something where im driving all day...i go to and from work and thats really it...i know when i get my camaro imma be doing a lil more driving then that but that will be cuz i want to and ill have fun doing so...and if i dont feel like driving my car for wuteva reason ill have my gf take her car...2008 G35x sedan...shes got the luxury car so she can shoufer me around =) besides id rather not put that many miles on my car...idk if you have a gf that u can switch driving with but either way i dont think it will be that bad, unless you drive A LOt, A LOT!

and i too believe that all sports cars should be stick...if you want a automatic cuz its your daily driver and you dont wanna have to deal with gears cuz you'll be driving it in traffic alot or wuteva then you should just go for the v6 IMO...cuz if having stick will annoy a person because of the where and how they will be driving then why do you need a v8? sounds like it will be a daily commuter and not a performance thing so save gas money and go v6...but to each his own...thats just how i feel about it
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Old 04-13-2009, 08:11 PM   #23
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No I do believe that the L99 does have VVT.
The L99 has active fuel mgmt, but not Variable Valve Timing.
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Old 04-13-2009, 08:15 PM   #24
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When and where was this announced?
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Old 04-13-2009, 08:19 PM   #25
UsedTaHaveA68
 
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Location: Little Rock, AR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BackinBlackSS/RS View Post
The L99 has active fuel mgmt, but not Variable Valve Timing.
Yes it does. It uses a camshaft phaser to adjust the timing of the camshaft, allowing it to open/close the valves earlier or later.

:::::And while not needed for LS3, the E38 is capable of supporting VVT and AFM features found in the LS3's close relative and Camaro stablemate, the L99.:::::

Taken from http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...ons/index.html
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