Features of a ZL1 NOT Required on a Z/28

[wildpaws]

I'm going to chime in here for a second, lots of good thoughts/ideas in this thread and many of the participants here have certainly been here long enough to have been round and round with all of the info. And yet the key questions remain unanswered, will there be a 5th gen. Z/28 and if there is what engine will be used? I feel that time is slowly starting to slip away for a 5th gen. Z/28 and I really can't think of a better body design to showcase a new Z/28 with heritage cues. I hope we'll see one, but if we don't I'm really looking forward to a 6th gen where they may get the weight down to something more reasonable. That said, the '69 Z/28 Camaro was my all time favorite and I would hate to see the opportunity missed for a 5th gen. version.
Clyde

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by wildpaws

I'm going to chime in here for a second, lots of good thoughts/ideas in this thread and many of the participants here have certainly been here long enough to have been round and round with all of the info. And yet the key questions remain unanswered, will there be a 5th gen. Z/28 and if there is what engine will be used? I feel that time is slowly starting to slip away for a 5th gen. Z/28 and I really can't think of a better body design to showcase a new Z/28 with heritage cues. I hope we'll see one, but if we don't I'm really looking forward to a 6th gen where they may get the weight down to something more reasonable. That said, the '69 Z/28 Camaro was my all time favorite and I would hate to see the opportunity missed for a 5th gen. version.
Clyde

There will be body design changes for the 6th GEN, that's a given. If the Z-28 is not introduced until the 6TH GEN, then it will get a GEN 5 motor. That's another given. Granted, the GEN 5 Camaro that is so sleek and sexy, I ask why would GM risk offering a nexgen Camaro with an unknown powerplant if the demand exists now with the current body lines and available state of the art LS7 powerplant? That's for GM to decide, it's a micro program within a large Corporation. A tiny cottage program allowed to thrive within much bigger goals corporate wide. Thanks to Chevy, GM and the Exec's to continue this endeavour. Only time will tell what the final outcome will be. But, we will see the Return of The Jedi Z-28 at some point.

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Actually, Clyde, we're simply 'splainin' the rationale, compiled over many-many months here. No need to flee, and your contributions and opinions are sought. It's just that, for some here, we've been 'round 'n 'round a time or twelve. We DON'T want a ZL1 (and we're very happy it was named as such!); we DO want something more than a 1SS/1LE; we recognize the elephant(s) in the room (BOSS and BOSS LS) and we expect/anticipate GM to come up with valid responses at BOSS-correct price points (low-$40s and upper-$40s) before the Gen-5's sunset.

Low-$40s = 1SS/1LE, pretty much as shown @ SEMA, only minus the "showcar" trimmings (leather 'n such). Offer it Base as a 1SS, and offer a 2SS-style upgrade to satify "those" folks...

Upper-$40s DOES afford (no pun) a legitimate opportunity for an LS7'd badge-worthy Gen-5 Camaro, to ably compete against ANY Dearborn-borne BOSS, as outlined above...

I do NOT expect a 1LE to be priced below a BOSS. GM simply doesn't NEED to. Same with the BOSS LS competitor. What's THE most outstanding track-able Camaro POSSIBLE for something between $45 and $50? And, if it fits the budget, WHY would we "settle" for less than the LS7?! If GM massages a 6.2L, it will still only be a 6.2. The LS7 will still equal/exceed the 6.2's "warrantiable" power and, left unmodified/unboosted, the LS7 will live a very l-o-n-g and charming life. And willingly tame the bucking broncos...

The problem with a "massaged" LS3? It doesn't exist in 60/100 (OE warranty), emissions-compliant, certified-'n-validated form...and that takes time and money that, apparently to this point, ain't happenin'... Every dollar $pent on an LS3 makes a buck closer to an LS7...

WIXOM: According to "sources", there is a bright-shiny future till summer-'13, at least. Plans beyond then are "incomplete"... If an LS7'd ZEE was intro'd, and demand for the car was "as anticipated", Wixom would be assured an even brighter-shinier future!

Gen-5 "LT1": NO ONE is telling anything about this engine's n/a abilities. Unless there's 470+ hp AND torque, it will deliver LESS than an LS7, which is required to move a 300+ lb. heavier Camaro vs. the power-to-weight of the BOSS. You need more than trick suspension and grippy rubber to track-match the BOSS... You need to ably move 3850-3920 pounds of Oshawa-oozing muscle, or at least make it THINK its muscle...and NOT Darlington Beach moss...

The other unanswered questions about this engine are, when will it be fully available, and will that leave enough time to implement a badge-worthy Gen-5 Camaro as it nears its sunset? Again...NO concrete answers available...yet...

Stay tuned.

LS3, if it is even possibly attainable to produce in a stouter, more powerfull platform, will be not sufficient enough motor to fullfil the vision of what has been previously said by corporate Chevy Exec's forward looking about what the product should be. LS3 is not an acceptable power plant for the Z-28. It, IMHO should be over 500+ HP. Naturaly aspirated. Lowdown and 2ndChance have written voluminous dissertations on the subject.

[LOWDOWN]

Funny how, 10 months ago right after the ZL1 announcement, the "speculation" began...and 1LE and Z/28 are still being bantied about...

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=128589&page=5

And there's STILL room for BOTH...only the "terms of reference" have changed a bit...

[Blueclyde]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Actually, Clyde, we're simply 'splainin' the rationale, compiled over many-many months here. No need to flee, and your contributions and opinions are sought. It's just that, for some here, we've been 'round 'n 'round a time or twelve. We DON'T want a ZL1 (and we're very happy it was named as such!); we DO want something more than a 1SS/1LE; we recognize the elephant(s) in the room (BOSS and BOSS LS) and we expect/anticipate GM to come up with valid responses at BOSS-correct price points (low-$40s and upper-$40s) before the Gen-5's sunset.

Low-$40s = 1SS/1LE, pretty much as shown @ SEMA, only minus the "showcar" trimmings (leather 'n such). Offer it Base as a 1SS, and offer a 2SS-style upgrade to satify "those" folks...

Upper-$40s DOES afford (no pun) a legitimate opportunity for an LS7'd badge-worthy Gen-5 Camaro, to ably compete against ANY Dearborn-borne BOSS, as outlined above...

I do NOT expect a 1LE to be priced below a BOSS. GM simply doesn't NEED to. Same with the BOSS LS competitor. What's THE most outstanding track-able Camaro POSSIBLE for something between $45 and $50? And, if it fits the budget, WHY would we "settle" for less than the LS7?! If GM massages a 6.2L, it will still only be a 6.2. The LS7 will still equal/exceed the 6.2's "warrantiable" power and, left unmodified/unboosted, the LS7 will live a very l-o-n-g and charming life. And willingly tame the bucking broncos...

The problem with a "massaged" LS3? It doesn't exist in 60/100 (OE warranty), emissions-compliant, certified-'n-validated form...and that takes time and money that, apparently to this point, ain't happenin'... Every dollar $pent on an LS3 makes a buck closer to an LS7...

WIXOM: According to "sources", there is a bright-shiny future till summer-'13, at least. Plans beyond then are "incomplete"... If an LS7'd ZEE was intro'd, and demand for the car was "as anticipated", Wixom would be assured an even brighter-shinier future!

Stay tuned.

You know, I would agree a Z28 in the 40k range would be great. I think they would sell a lot of them. I have a ZL1 on order but man that thing is expensive. I'm not sure I will buy it when it comes in (still wrestling with that decision). My only thing with the Z28 is what engine? I love the LS7 but I see a few problems with it. First, GM is going DI and next gen LS is on the way. That means current LS models will go away. Second is capacity. I've personally been through the wixom facility. I do not think they could keep up with demand if the put the current LS7 in a Camaro. Great facility but it is hand build and relatively constrained.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by Blueclyde

You know, I would agree a Z28 in the 40k range would be great. I think they would sell a lot of them. I have a ZL1 on order but man that thing is expensive. I'm not sure I will buy it when it comes in (still wrestling with that decision). My only thing with the Z28 is what engine? I love the LS7 but I see a few problems with it. First, GM is going DI and next gen LS is on the way. That means current LS models will go away. Second is capacity. I've personally been through the wixom facility. I do not think they could keep up with demand if the put the current LS7 in a Camaro. Great facility but it is hand build and relatively constrained.

I think I've heard that they are setup to build more than 10k engines a year there, and I think they're probably half that right now between the LS3, LS7, and LS9. So them cranking~5000 LS7's for the Z28 is feasible. Thats probably how many LS7's they were doing 5 years ago when the Z06 came out.

[htron50]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

I think I've heard that they are setup to build more than 10k engines a year there, and I think they're probably half that right now between the LS3, LS7, and LS9. So them cranking~5000 LS7's for the Z28 is feasible. Thats probably how many LS7's they were doing 5 years ago when the Z06 came out.

FBOD said "there's lots we've still not disclosed (on the ZL1) so stay tuned..." ---- 3 months ago.

Anybody know if they are holding any more relevant performance secrets??

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by Blueclyde

You know, I would agree a Z28 in the 40k range would be great. I think they would sell a lot of them. I have a ZL1 on order but man that thing is expensive. I'm not sure I will buy it when it comes in (still wrestling with that decision). My only thing with the Z28 is what engine? I love the LS7 but I see a few problems with it. First, GM is going DI and next gen LS is on the way. That means current LS models will go away. Second is capacity. I've personally been through the wixom facility. I do not think they could keep up with demand if the put the current LS7 in a Camaro. Great facility but it is hand build and relatively constrained.

You raise some interesting points, BC...

1) I wonder how Chev dealers are gonna feel when some of these ZL1s show up...and the "owner" DOESN'T? Those $5-10,000 deposits, some dealers were asking for, will suddenly make $en$e...

2) Wixom, and LS7 capacity, explained in post #837: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...149090&page=34 DG, having been a member in good standing throughout this ZEE discussion, has the numbers "in his pocket" as well.

3) For the reason you sight, above (ZL1 price), Z/28s with LS7s priced in the mid-$40s could keep Wixom going...all by itself! And, like the BOSS is to the Shelby GT500 in certain cases, not much "sacrifice" would be required to purchase a ZEE vs. a ZL1...

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

You raise some interesting points, BC...

1) I wonder how Chev dealers are gonna feel when some of these ZL1s show up...and the "owner" DOESN'T? Those $5-10,000 deposits, some dealers were asking for, will suddenly make $en$e...

2) Wixom, and LS7 capacity, explained in post #837: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...149090&page=34 DG, having been a member in good standing throughout this ZEE discussion, has the numbers "in his pocket" as well.

3) For the reason you sight, above (ZL1 price), Z/28s with LS7s priced in the mid-$40s could keep Wixom going...all by itself! And, like the BOSS is to the Shelby GT500 in certain cases, not much "sacrifice" would be required to purchase a ZEE vs. a ZL1...

All valid points IMHO Lowdown. It's a big ticket speciality item, the dealers will have the opportunity to see what the market bears, but, if they don't get big fish, selling them at MSRP won't be a problem. Not many around will one be able to find anyway. It's a non advertised limited edition...there will be low numbers produced so even those wanting to order will be hard pressed throughout the cycle to get one. There's a number in mind we won't be privy to in my opnion. It all will be factored in. Now, many more $45K range Z-28's, that will appeal to a broader, wider market, will be easier and less restrictive to move. It can carry over into 6th gen, why not...put to good use the outgoing LS familiy and use the LS7 in '13 Z-28. Shoot, '70-'74 Z-28's used the identical SPHP 350 in both Corvette and Camaro Z-28. That's where we should be returning to, sharing the big dog with both families!.

[Blueclyde]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

You raise some interesting points, BC...

1) I wonder how Chev dealers are gonna feel when some of these ZL1s show up...and the "owner" DOESN'T? Those $5-10,000 deposits, some dealers were asking for, will suddenly make $en$e...

2) Wixom, and LS7 capacity, explained in post #837: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...149090&page=34 DG, having been a member in good standing throughout this ZEE discussion, has the numbers "in his pocket" as well.

3) For the reason you sight, above (ZL1 price), Z/28s with LS7s priced in the mid-$40s could keep Wixom going...all by itself! And, like the BOSS is to the Shelby GT500 in certain cases, not much "sacrifice" would be required to purchase a ZEE vs. a ZL1...

Interesting. I wonder if the 10K number is "all in" meaning dry LS3, LS7, LS9. How many Z28's would they sell? I think it could easily be a number that required a mass produced powertrain but I could be off base.

As for Wixom, it will be interesring to see what happens. Everything they make today is likely going away in the next 3 years. It is a cool facility that shows how entrepreneurial a big company and its union can be. Outstanding facility staffed by really good people. Very small operation.

[LOWDOWN]

Again, in its "hay day", circa '07, about 10,000 LS7s were built...Z06 + GMPP crate engines. '11 was predicted, mid-August, to total less than 5,000 for all three versions...

Could Camaro sell 5,000+ mid-$40s LS7'd ZEEs, even in "this" market? I believe it would...as a MINIMUM...which would easily return Wixom to "capacity", and probably take up virtually ALL the slack, there, as the dry LS3 and LS9, like the C6 Vette, ride off into the sunset...

You have obviously been taken in by the mass hysteria for the all-conquering ZL1...at now $54Gs+...along with literally 100s if not 1,000s of others. And, by your own admission, at this price you're having 2nd thoughts. AND you're NOT alone...

You, and most of the other "head-scratchers", are NOW potential ZEE buyers...if, as Drew Carey now sez, "The Price Is Right"...

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Again, in its "hay day", circa '07, about 10,000 LS7s were built...Z06 + GMPP crate engines. '11 was predicted, mid-August, to total less than 5,000 for all three versions...

Could Camaro sell 5,000+ mid-$40s LS7'd ZEEs, even in "this" market? I believe it would...as a MINIMUM...which would easily return Wixom to "capacity", and probably take up virtually ALL the slack, there, as the dry LS3 and LS9, like the C6 Vette, ride off into the sunset...

You have obviously been taken in by the mass hysteria for the all-conquering ZL1...at now $54Gs+...along with literally 100s if not 1,000s of others. And, by your own admission, at this price you're having 2nd thoughts. AND you're NOT alone...

You, and most of the other "head-scratchers", are NOW potential ZEE buyers...if, as Drew Carey now sez, "The Price Is Right"...

Come on down....!!!!!!! Indeed, 5K units at 45K range would be an easy to hit target, if not an impossible to miss production level. I personally see it going at least twice that point if Chevy brings to market the Z-28 you, 2ndChance, I and other propose the car should be. It's baseball, hot dog's, apple pie and Chevrolet!

[Mr Twisty]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

I think I've heard that they are setup to build more than 10k engines a year there, and I think they're probably half that right now between the LS3, LS7, and LS9. So them cranking~5000 LS7's for the Z28 is feasible. Thats probably how many LS7's they were doing 5 years ago when the Z06 came out.

If they get slammed, maybe Mercruiser Stillwater could take up the slack

LS7 is a $7,000.00+ premium over the LS3, just for the motor, not counting the added cost for the trans/diff needed for the extra horses. LS7 car would get into ZL1 price territory real quick.

[2cnd chance]

Ummm Lowdown I believe your mathematical prowess is required.

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by MisterCamaro69

LS7 is a $7,000.00+ premium over the LS3, just for the motor, not counting the added cost for the trans/diff needed for the extra horses. LS7 car would get into ZL1 price territory real quick.

...if it had all the gold chain amenities absolutely unnecessary for the true-believing ZEE buyer...

If ya want bling, head to another model/forum section. Having said that (and I have many-many times), it does NOT mean that, to justify the broadest sales base NECESSARY, you can't have yer back-up camera and rearview mirror Gold Chain Holder...as an OPTION...

With deference (and NO direct connection) to Gene Simmons, KISS...Keep It Simple (stupid?) Satchmo...

Skip around the ZEE Section, do a wee bit o' readin', and the Business Case is present...and, like the car, BULLET-PROOF...and, most important of all, BUILDABLE...NOW!!!

[2cnd chance]

Yes it can be had in the mid $40's.

[OldScoolCamaro]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

...if it had all the gold chain amenities absolutely unnecessary for the true-believing ZEE buyer...

If ya want bling, head to another model/forum section. Having said that (and I have many-many times), it does NOT mean that, to justify the broadest sales base NECESSARY, you can't have yer back-up camera and rearview mirror Gold Chain Holder...as an OPTION...

With deference (and NO direct connection) to Gene Simmons, KISS...Keep It Simple (stupid?) Satchmo...

Skip around the ZEE Section, do a wee bit o' readin', and the Business Case is present...and, like the car, BULLET-PROOF...and, most important of all, BUILDABLE...NOW!!!

<...a kiss is just a kiss..."As time goes by" "Satchmo" Mr. Louis Armstrong.
And the time going by clock keeps on ticking for the Z...

[68vert]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

...if it had all the gold chain amenities absolutely unnecessary for the true-believing ZEE buyer...

If ya want bling, head to another model/forum section. Having said that (and I have many-many times), it does NOT mean that, to justify the broadest sales base NECESSARY, you can't have yer back-up camera and rearview mirror Gold Chain Holder...as an OPTION...

With deference (and NO direct connection) to Gene Simmons, KISS...Keep It Simple (stupid?) Satchmo...

Skip around the ZEE Section, do a wee bit o' readin', and the Business Case is present...and, like the car, BULLET-PROOF...and, most important of all, BUILDABLE...NOW!!!

I think in the near future the back-up camera's are going to be required on US vehicles.

[OldScoolCamaro]

If so thats fine, I am sure they don't add on any significant weight.

[FINALLYSATISFIED]

I personally don't agree with not having the features listed not featured in the Z/28. I'd want the pdim, rear vision package, HUD, rear view auto dim, boston speakers, etc. But that's me. Those things can be apart of a package which is fine but it needs to be considered an option.

I can see the Z/28 being a separate line. Z/28 LS or LT package and a Z/28 SS package. For those who want a V6 they can get one for those that want a V8 with limited features they can do it.

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by MY1STCAMAR0

I personally don't agree with not having the features listed not featured in the Z/28. I'd want the pdim, rear vision package, HUD, rear view auto dim, boston speakers, etc. But that's me. Those things can be apart of a package which is fine but it needs to be considered an option.

I can see the Z/28 being a separate line. Z/28 LS or LT package and a Z/28 SS package. For those who want a V6 they can get one for those that want a V8 with limited features they can do it.

I have a couple of problems with this, first off a Z/28 should NEVER be a V6 until CAFE makes it the only possibility. Second, let's not intertwine Z/28 and SS again, they should be seperate and distinct vehicles.
Clyde

[2cnd chance]

Amen

[trganey]

Originally Posted by wildpaws

I have a couple of problems with this, first off a Z/28 should NEVER be a V6 until CAFE makes it the only possibility. Second, let's not intertwine Z/28 and SS again, they should be seperate and distinct vehicles.
Clyde

AMEN!

[Mr. Wyndham]

I read an interesting comment today...

Would a baby ZL1 and a Z28 be one in the same given the current lineup?

[2cnd chance]

That is a most definate YES!

[wildpaws]

Originally Posted by Dragoneye

I read an interesting comment today...

Would a baby ZL1 and a Z28 be one in the same given the current lineup?

Not sure I understand the meaning of that question. The original first gen. Z/28 was not a baby anything, it was it's own unique vehicle. It certainly wasn't a baby SS or a baby COPO or baby ZL1. I certainly think a new Z/28 should be a baby ZL1 in terms of price, it should fall firmly in $45K+ territory rather than the $55K+ territory of the new ZL1. I think a new Z/28 should be an excellent performer that pricewise fills the niche between the SS and ZL1, performance wise it should be closer to the ZL1.
Clyde