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Old 04-25-2009, 03:37 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by Nitro Dave View Post
Not to be negative here but it sure seems like a poor band aid fix to me. I mean come on you are paying 35,000 dollars for a car with 20inch wheels for the looks they provide. Yes the weights will not hurt anything but it's deffintly an eye sore. If the calipers need more weight the fix is probably thicker caliper. My guess is GM made a decision of a band aid fix in order to ship the cars and get paid. Recasting new calipers would take a bit of time and be a huge expense scraping the ones that are not 100 percent. I hope my car does not have tire weights stuck to the rotors. I will be alittle unhappy about that.
I know that there is no way I would push something from my company out the door that I knew was not right. I think time and money played a huge roll in this poor fix. Just my 2 cents
I haven't put my 2 cents in here and am not going to except to say that if I had the choice to trade places with ANYONE who has their car right now (weights) vs. myself (who will probably be getting a car with the replacement calipers on it but I have to wait a few more months), I'd do it in a heartbeat.
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Old 04-25-2009, 04:02 AM   #444
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Take them off.... Put them in safe keeping. Replace with upgraded replacement.

When you take the car to Barrett Jackson in the year 2025 put them back on as the original.

PS ... Are there weights on Corvette brakes?
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Old 04-25-2009, 10:02 AM   #445
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I can only imagine how many of the people here are complaining about some Caliper Weights, were (are) crying that GM didn't give them their Camaro yesterday....

Seriously...
They don't have different headlights or body panels or interior (please dont say ambient lighting that was on the PROTO-TYPE or PRE-PRODUCTION), or hell, not even a lesser engine... or LESSER brakes...
they have wheel weights.... that it.
I know people are screaming here like they gave them an engine without all the pistons!

And yeah the screaming bloody murder would be quadrupled had the car been delayed another month!
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Old 04-25-2009, 10:05 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by 67camaro99 View Post
I can only imagine how many of the people here are complaining about some Caliper Weights, were (are) crying that GM didn't give them their Camaro yesterday....

Seriously...
They don't have different headlights or body panels or interior (please dont say ambient lighting that was on the PROTO-TYPE or PRE-PRODUCTION), or hell, not even a lesser engine... or LESSER brakes...
they have wheel weights.... that it.
I for one am glad my car isn't being built yet and hope mine doesn't have these wheel weights. I will gladly wait a few more months.
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Old 04-25-2009, 10:10 AM   #447
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You guys are correct, I am improperly assuming the weights have foam core adhesive as most wheel weights utilize...but even if it is a high temp performance adhesive, it's still a shoddy way to accomplish this simply from an appearance standpoint to address this issue. The legal concern about the weights falling off are negligable....stones a lot bigger will be thrown at the cars all the time from the tire anyway, and when these weights fall off, the worst that will happen is the brakes resonate or chatter a bit.

I'm sorry about my continuous posts on this matter, but it drives me crazy from the standpoint of the work of art that this car is to have such an odd Engineering Variance Order used to sign-off and deliver our cars. Yes...this issue touches areas of my profession...I would not have done this if it were on my watch.

Otherwise, I'm confident that these are going to be the best Camaros ever built!!
I'm with you on this one Beechdoctor. I'd still like to hear from GM what type of fix or change to the current solution which I agree is shoddy. Or if Gm is going to fix this issue for those who have already received their vehicle. I think both of those are very fair questions to ask of GM at this point in time.
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Old 04-25-2009, 10:46 AM   #448
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Damn... I'm gone for a day and this isn't resolved yet.
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Old 04-25-2009, 10:51 AM   #449
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Pull your weight-free-calipered Bonneville up to the next 2010 Camaro you see and let's see who's worried about it!!
My bonnie is crying now.
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Old 04-25-2009, 12:36 PM   #450
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I am with Beechdoctor. I am an aerospace engineer as well -- my company is a large component supplier for the On-Star system.

I would wager that this started out as a proof of concept solution from the engineers and management said "SHIP IT". I can only imagine that there are some very pissed off automotive engineers over this.

Again, it must be stressed though that weighted calipers are NOT a hack. Many high-end auto makers do it. The hack is how the weights were added. I am sure they will come up with a properly engineered solution and then retrofit it to all that have wheel weights.

SO............ CHILL OUT.
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Old 04-25-2009, 02:51 PM   #451
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I am an aerospace engineer as well -- my company is a large component supplier for the On-Star system.
Well, that explains a lot. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to run to the lumberyard to pick up a six-pack.
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Old 04-25-2009, 04:25 PM   #452
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Well, that explains a lot. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to run to the lumberyard to pick up a six-pack.



The point here isn't that his profession qualifies him as a Brembo/GM driveline engineer. However, anyone with an engineering background that looks at this issue shakes his/her head questioning what was the driving force to release what is obvious to be a rush to market decision. I'm sure that a few design engineers within GM silently share my and FirstLSK's opinion about this.

I've been involved with manufacturing design/installation of aircraft piston and turbine engines for 20 years and that does not make me an automotive brake expert. But I've seen similar poorly engineered decisions forced by finance and marketing pressures. That is obviously what has happened in this case too. No way was this a design engineers fix...it was a production/quality engineering patch to sustain production targets until a redesigned solution can be delivered with properly weighted calipers.

This brake "tape-a-weight" issue is not a big deal...GM could have delivered the cars without the weights and replaced or permanently modified the calipers under a service bulletin once new a design is final. But in the interest of reducing brake noise on the first few thousand cars, this short-cut was approved....it just looks ridiculous.

I just can't understand how any of us can look at this installation and not say WTF...and then suggest it was a proper design and should be delivery this way.

Last edited by Beechdoctor; 04-25-2009 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 04-25-2009, 06:59 PM   #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beechdoctor View Post


The point here isn't that his profession qualifies him as a Brembo/GM driveline engineer. However, anyone with an engineering background that looks at this issue shakes his/her head questioning what was the driving force to release what is obvious to be a rush to market decision. I'm sure that a few design engineers within GM silently share my and FirstLSK's opinion about this.

I've been involved with manufacturing design/installation of aircraft piston and turbine engines for 20 years and that does not make me an automotive brake expert. But I've seen similar poorly engineered decisions forced by finance and marketing pressures. That is obviously what has happened in this case too. No way was this a design engineers fix...it was a production/quality engineering patch to sustain production targets until a redesigned solution can be delivered with properly weighted calipers.

This brake "tape-a-weight" issue is not a big deal...GM could have delivered the cars without the weights and replaced or permanently modified the calipers under a service bulletin once new a design is final. But in the interest of reducing brake noise on the first few thousand cars, this short-cut was approved....it just looks ridiculous.

I just can't understand how any of us can look at this installation and not say WTF...and then suggest it was a proper design and should be delivery this way.
Good points. I think that statement I highlighted is one that everyone can agree on, and will be taken in one of 2 ways:

1) OMG! WTF! That looks ridiculous!
2) The only problem with it is its appearance, which is ridiculous.

Based on my understanding of the situation, the problem at GM was they noticed an unreasonable brake vibration just prior to production. The solution to this problem is to add weight to the caliper. Proper weights could not be made before production began. So while working on a permanent solution, they had 3 possible courses of action in the mean time: delay, let them make noise, band-aid. The band-aid solution was chosen, and I think most here would agree thats the best choice out of the three.

Obviously everyone (including GM) would prefer the car to be perfect in every single way from day 1. That will never happen with any car ever. If its not one thing its another. Should anyone simply be happy with things? No. Its good to not simply settle for poor quality. But its also bad to have unrealistic expectations. If GM had found this problem earlier, they would have had it fixed before production. Maybe something else had changed which caused the problem to appear when it was too late. It happens all the time, the fix for A causes problem B, the fix for B causes problem C, etc. Such is the world of engineering. Nobody has to like it, but it would be helpful if people at least understood it.
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Old 04-25-2009, 07:12 PM   #454
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Good points. I think that statement I highlighted is one that everyone can agree on, and will be taken in one of 2 ways:

1) OMG! WTF! That looks ridiculous!
2) The only problem with it is its appearance, which is ridiculous.

Based on my understanding of the situation, the problem at GM was they noticed an unreasonable brake vibration just prior to production. The solution to this problem is to add weight to the caliper. Proper weights could not be made before production began. So while working on a permanent solution, they had 3 possible courses of action in the mean time: delay, let them make noise, band-aid. The band-aid solution was chosen, and I think most here would agree thats the best choice out of the three.

Obviously everyone (including GM) would prefer the car to be perfect in every single way from day 1. That will never happen with any car ever. If its not one thing its another. Should anyone simply be happy with things? No. Its good to not simply settle for poor quality. But its also bad to have unrealistic expectations. If GM had found this problem earlier, they would have had it fixed before production. Maybe something else had changed which caused the problem to appear when it was too late. It happens all the time, the fix for A causes problem B, the fix for B causes problem C, etc. Such is the world of engineering. Nobody has to like it, but it would be helpful if people at least understood it.
All my deleted posts practically stated the same thing you just did.. It would have been better had GM stated this scenario and avoid all this bad press it has gotten. A simple statement saying they are working on a better solution and you all will get it once it is available would have gone a long way..
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Old 04-25-2009, 07:15 PM   #455
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this thread is still going on? lol at this thread.
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Old 04-25-2009, 08:52 PM   #456
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#3696 had no weights on the calipers
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Old 04-25-2009, 09:02 PM   #457
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#3696 had no weights on the calipers
interesting... 3934 picked up today has them as does 3305. Is 3696 yours? It should have the weights.
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Old 04-25-2009, 09:19 PM   #458
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#3696 had no weights on the calipers
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interesting... 3934 picked up today has them as does 3305. Is 3696 yours? It should have the weights.
Looks like #3622 doesn't have any either ( member Zeus95 )

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18918

Are there any photos of # 3934 ??
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Old 04-25-2009, 09:31 PM   #459
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Looks like #3622 doesn't have any either ( member Zeus95 )

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18918

Are there any photos of # 3934 ??
I forgot they are on the SS only. 3696 is a 1LT

3305 is a SS confirmed to have weights by its owner

3305

3934 is a SS confirmed to have weights by its owner

3934

So now 3622 is a SS and should have them. Do we know for sure?
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