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Old 04-21-2009, 11:50 PM   #201
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..adding unsprung weight that effects the suspension ..
LOL!
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Old 04-22-2009, 12:36 AM   #202
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GM needs to get some help when it comes to brakes. My 08 HHR SS doesn't have power brakes until I let it warm up for about a minute. Something to do with there being no pressure in the vacuum lines until the turbo warms up. Either way, I contacted GM customer service and have takin it into the dealer and their fix is to "let it warm up".....LOL. Come on Chevrolet.....
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Old 04-22-2009, 01:13 AM   #203
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My first impression was they are heat sinks, but they don't look like aluminum. Can one of the owners rule out aluminum as the material?

To the guy about the SRT, brakes do not need to get up to temp. Typically they warp and what not when they get too hot, slotted rotor fix that but also eat the pads faster, vented is a better route to go, hence more brake dust.

Patiently waiting for an explanation that makes sense (and my camaro)...
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Old 04-22-2009, 01:24 AM   #204
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I didn't feel like reading past the 4th page, so my question is this:

Has anyone tried removing these weights to see if there is a difference? They're not expensive and would be easy to replace. Why don't you just take them off and see if anything changes?
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Old 04-22-2009, 02:28 AM   #205
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Maybe I'm crazy, but taking them off when we don't know what they are for sounds like a horrible idea to me...
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Old 04-22-2009, 07:13 AM   #206
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Ok my take,

DON"T take them off to see what happens. If they are there to balance then you would have to re-balance them to correct the "problem". Since nobody has seen this before, It is reasonable to believe that nobody would know what steps/machines/test/etc it would take to balance them.

This is of course only if they are there to balance. Best thing to do to those who have a new Camaro with them is just enjoy their awesome new car and wait for the answer from GM or Fbod.

And to GM. Thanks for the Camaro
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:22 AM   #207
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I honestly don't think that "joe public" will/would be as patient and forgiving as most of you are.
I don't think Joe Public will notice -- and if he does, he'll assume that it's a designed-in part of the car, not a duct tape fix.

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My first impression was they are heat sinks, but they don't look like aluminum. Can one of the owners rule out aluminum as the material?
The job of a heat sink is to absorb and radiate heat. Heat sinks have as much surface area as possible.


What's on the Camaro brakes is thick and has little surface area. It can absorb and store heat but it can't radiate heat any better than the caliper already could on its own. It just doesn't add a significant amount of surface area. If they are there for heat at all, they are there as thermal ballast (as I joked earlier in the thread). I can't imagine a reason to need to store heat on the caliper but that's what those can do with heat.

Whatever they are, I'd rather have a Camaro with them than no Camaro. I wish I could have a Camaro. Can someone please buy me a Camaro? Pretty please?
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:24 AM   #208
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They are not aluminum, they are regular wheel weights. And there is NO NOTICEABLE PROBLEM with the brakes at all. Made several hard stop from "high speeds" and they performed great. Still love the car and when we get an answer I plan on keeping the car (at least until the convertable comes out)

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My first impression was they are heat sinks, but they don't look like aluminum. Can one of the owners rule out aluminum as the material?

To the guy about the SRT, brakes do not need to get up to temp. Typically they warp and what not when they get too hot, slotted rotor fix that but also eat the pads faster, vented is a better route to go, hence more brake dust.

Patiently waiting for an explanation that makes sense (and my camaro)...
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:26 AM   #209
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Again, this thread was not created by the OP so that it can be a complaint thread. It was created to be a useful discussion thread to get to the bottom of what these weights' purpose may be. Off-topic posts will continue to be deleted.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:37 AM   #210
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With 200+ posts in this thread I'm sure somebody in the know has been here already and just hasn't chimed in.

My call? Just leave them there until we find out why there are there.
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Old 04-22-2009, 10:08 AM   #211
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Seriously guys... You are going crazy about NOTHING! You only even notice that they are there if you are looking for them. Remember last night when I said I didnt have them? It's because I couldnt see them. I personally don't know what they are for, but I don't really care either. Maybe I will if they become a problem, but until then, I know that the people that put them there know much much more about this car than I do and I trust their knowledge.
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:01 AM   #212
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I checked out the link on Automotive News - It takes you to an article from July 2008 - nothing on this subject.

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Old 04-22-2009, 11:17 AM   #213
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I forwarded the pics to Brembo. Just got an email back from them. They state that..
“It’s likely they’re used for noise defeat.
These will often defeat harmonic distortion a.k.a brake squeal.”
All i know is that i had an '06 Volvo S60R and it had Brembos on it, and they worked real well, buuuuut, squealed like no other. It was awful and embarrassing when they did. I brought it back to the dealership 4 or 5 times over the life of the lease and their techs had nothing to say but " Brembos just squeal" . It was beyond annoying and a half assed excuse. This Camaro is too beautiful of a car to have the brakes squealing like they did on that R, so if those weights are what have to be on them for now, ill suck it up and deal till it gets resolved, bc i will not want to drive that car with the brakes making as much noise as i remember the, making on the other car.
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:26 AM   #214
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I don't understand how people are saying this is harmonic related. That doesn't make sense to me. The breaks barely move. In order to have a harmonic issue, they need to be moving in a constant fashion (e.g. spinning) causing an imbalance which creates noise at a frequency. Breaks don't move at any sort of frequency! It's not like these are on the rotor or something. Squealing breaks isn't caused by some sort of harmonic imbalance it's caused by friction. That's why break pads aren't made out of some plain ol metal as they would squeal like a mofo every time you tapped the breaks. Obviously this is a bandaid for something but a harmonic imbalance, I think not.
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:27 AM   #215
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Again, this thread was not created by the OP so that it can be a complaint thread. It was created to be a useful discussion thread to get to the bottom of what these weights' purpose may be. If you have something technical to add, please do so. Otherwise, sorry, but off-topic posts will continue to be deleted so that people following this thread can concentrate on the reasons for the weights.
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:27 AM   #216
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I love the expert talk assuming these are just tape weights like you would put on a wheel to balance it and will melt off.

Come on, It seems like noone can give them 1 iota of a benefit of the doubt.
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:36 AM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UCF w00t View Post
I don't understand how people are saying this is harmonic related. That doesn't make sense to me. The breaks barely move. In order to have a harmonic issue, they need to be moving in a constant fashion (e.g. spinning) causing an imbalance which creates noise at a frequency. Breaks don't move at any sort of frequency! It's not like these are on the rotor or something. Squealing breaks isn't caused by some sort of harmonic imbalance it's caused by friction. That's why break pads aren't made out of some plain ol metal as they would squeal like a mofo every time you tapped the breaks. Obviously this is a bandaid for something but a harmonic imbalance, I think not.
I do see your point. But Harmonic resonances can come from any system under pressure. like hydraulic brakes squeezing pads against a rotating disk.

I'm reaching way back to my days in the Navy here so bear with me. But, Hydraulic systems are extremely prone to pressure related squeals, vibrations, or even howls based on many different forces. It's possible that under a common brake pressure and a common vehicle speed that the brakes themselves squeal when everything is at that exact point to cause the resonance. It does make sense that adding weights will reduce the frequency at which the resonance occurs changing the dynamic of the forces causing it. It's always better to reduce the cause of the resonant frequency than to cover it up for sure. But I'd prefer to add weight than to say add a bushing that just hides the vibration. Adding the weight actually reduces the vibration. Even though the brakes don't rotate like the rotor does, it still is affected by the rotor and pressure.

For what it's worth.
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:36 AM   #218
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They look different from the wheel weights to me. Mine will be staying on until we know for certain.
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:53 AM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UCF w00t View Post
I don't understand how people are saying this is harmonic related. That doesn't make sense to me. The breaks barely move. In order to have a harmonic issue, they need to be moving in a constant fashion (e.g. spinning) causing an imbalance which creates noise at a frequency. Breaks don't move at any sort of frequency! It's not like these are on the rotor or something. Squealing breaks isn't caused by some sort of harmonic imbalance it's caused by friction. That's why break pads aren't made out of some plain ol metal as they would squeal like a mofo every time you tapped the breaks. Obviously this is a bandaid for something but a harmonic imbalance, I think not.

Guess u r right. Friction does cause vibrations which can cause harmonic tones. (Hint of sarcasm)

Since the rotors spin as fast as the wheels turn and the callipers are stationary. Even a slight friction between the two could in essence cause a harmonic tone.

Or they're there to stop the vibrations from reaching somewhere else on the car when u apply the brakes.

Point is who knows none of us designed the suspension and braking systems for this car.

Brembo stated it might be for the harmonic balancing but u seem to doubt them to.
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Old 04-22-2009, 12:32 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing View Post
Guess u r right. Friction does cause vibrations which can cause harmonic tones. (Hint of sarcasm)

Since the rotors spin as fast as the wheels turn and the callipers are stationary. Even a slight friction between the two could in essence cause a harmonic tone.

Or they're there to stop the vibrations from reaching somewhere else on the car when u apply the brakes.

Point is who knows none of us designed the suspension and braking systems for this car.

Brembo stated it might be for the harmonic balancing but u seem to doubt them to.
Got this interesting response from my father (GM manager):

Quote:
Hmmm... Harmonic Resonance Dampers? Original Camaro had a last minute gel filled canister that went into the trunk to dampen a resonance they could not engineer out.
So his take was that it was for harmonic dampening. Who knows for sure though...
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Old 04-22-2009, 12:35 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by UCF w00t View Post
I don't understand how people are saying this is harmonic related. That doesn't make sense to me. The breaks barely move. In order to have a harmonic issue, they need to be moving in a constant fashion (e.g. spinning) causing an imbalance which creates noise at a frequency. Breaks don't move at any sort of frequency! It's not like these are on the rotor or something. Squealing breaks isn't caused by some sort of harmonic imbalance it's caused by friction. That's why break pads aren't made out of some plain ol metal as they would squeal like a mofo every time you tapped the breaks. Obviously this is a bandaid for something but a harmonic imbalance, I think not.

You are incorrect. Let me explain:

This has nothing to do with "harmonic imbalance". Something doesn't have to be spinning to have a resonant frequency...and everything has a natural resonant frequency. If the brake calipers have a natural frequency in the range of the vibration caused by the friction of the rotor against the pads then they will "squeal".

Brake calipers must be an engineering nightmare because not only are they very light compared to the massive rotor...they are actually shaped like a tuning fork which is exactly what you don't want when trying to control vibration.

I should know...I'm a vibration test engineer! I've worked here for the last 8 years and my whole job is to control resonant frequencies. http://www.baughneng.com

Using lead weights to control noise is a very feasable idea. Lead is very dense and relatively soft which is great for noise dampening. We use what we call "Q-Damp" to dampen vibration and although I'm not at liberty to tell you what it is made of I can tell you that it basically does the same job as the lead weights appear to be doing.

In my opinion, GM should not replace these calipers. They do not need to spend anymore wasted money, but instead they should have a solid painted lead weight to replace the generic wheel weights.
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Old 04-22-2009, 12:39 PM   #222
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Hmmm... Harmonic Resonance Dampers? Original Camaro had a last minute gel filled canister that went into the trunk to dampen a resonance they could not engineer out.
gell filled canister? pics? lol that sounds interesting
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Old 04-22-2009, 12:42 PM   #223
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That makes sense. I know everything has a resonant frequency but they aren't moving so I didn't see how they could reach that frequency. I guess the friction from stopping could cause it to achieve that but it still seems odd to me. But I'm just a techie so I'll defer to the vibration test engineer .
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Old 04-22-2009, 12:45 PM   #224
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gell filled canister? pics? lol that sounds interesting
http://www.chevy-camaro.com/faq/chev...l-shakers.shtm

working on pics. They were called "cocktail shakers"



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Old 04-22-2009, 12:46 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by 1_2Many View Post
You are incorrect. Let me explain:

This has nothing to do with "harmonic imbalance". Something doesn't have to be spinning to have a resonant frequency...and everything has a natural resonant frequency. If the brake calipers have a natural frequency in the range of the vibration caused by the friction of the rotor against the pads then they will "squeal".

Brake calipers must be an engineering nightmare because not only are they very light compared to the massive rotor...they are actually shaped like a tuning fork which is exactly what you don't want when trying to control vibration.

I should know...I'm a vibration test engineer! I've worked here for the last 8 years and my whole job is to control resonant frequencies. http://www.baughneng.com

Using lead weights to control noise is a very feasable idea. Lead is very dense and relatively soft which is great for noise dampening. We use what we call "Q-Damp" to dampen vibration and although I'm not at liberty to tell you what it is made of I can tell you that it basically does the same job as the lead weights appear to be doing.

In my opinion, GM should not replace these calipers. They do not need to spend anymore wasted money, but instead they should have a solid painted lead weight to replace the generic wheel weights.
Looking at how many small weights are being glued on, a larger solid piece of lead is probably too heavy to simply glue on so this would not work.. Welding one solid piece on is an alternative but would take longer to implement at the factory.
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