Fast/powerful cars are bad... or so I'm told.

[ALLTRBO]

I got into a debate today with my supervisor (whose opinion and experience I greatly respect on most things) about fast/powerful street cars. He's on the strictly practical side and says that no one should have a (street) car that accelerates or tops out any faster than it HAS to for any condition it'll reasonably come across (ie. My wife's 4-door automatic Civic is still too fast, though he's mainly referring to sports/muscle cars). He's all for limiting every car to 85-90 mph, and doesn't think any car should have a better power/weight ratio than the average econobox. He feels that people should only be able to have what they want (in this regard) so long as there is a HUGE tax on it so that, basically, no one can afford it. According to him, people who drive fast cars, by human nature, will automatically drive them more dangerously to some degree and cause more accidents, and the cars are a pointless drain on natural resources (oil), etc. etc. He says that on some basic level, it's all about fulfilling one's "macho-ness".

Now he isn't some pointless ranter, he is a very intelligent and very accomplished person who has done his share of stupid things when he was young, and in my job he is definitely a valuable mentor. He is spot on in most everything he speaks of, and when he isn't, he's willing to listen to the other side of the argument. He definitely isn't a greenie tree-hugger, either.
That being said, it bothers me more than it typically would that he essentially thinks I'm an idiot on the subject and that he disagrees with just about all of my points.

Yes, powerful cars are definitely more than one needs, but it isn't about practical needs. While their are many, many idiots who have these cars to fulfill some form of "macho-ness", it's far from all of us. For me personally, it's about the physics as a whole... the feel, sound, how the mechanics of the entire system work together to create something perfectly harmonious, even the aesthetics of the thing, those sculpted lines that flow together to create a look of purpose. All of it meshes together to create a whole that is more than the sum of the parts, something more than an A to B, something more than a bland tool to get you from here to there. It's what some would call a passion, something beyond the "practical". I would love driving my cars just the same, staring at them with a smile just the same, if there were no one else on Earth (though that would be awfully lonely without any gearheads with which to share conversation about them).
It just so happens that it also gets you from here to there.

I bought my 2010 V6 Camaro because I liked the way it drove better than the SS, it felt like less of a fast 'truck' (keyword: truck). I also love all the technology in that sweet V6, and it's still no slouch. I've always been a V8 guy, but I'm a car guy first and foremost. The V8 is better in the ways V8's are, but I liked the V6 car this time. While that is already enough to make any "practical" person scoff in disapproval, I'm now thinking of trading it in on a '12 SS because I got T-boned a couple weeks ago from a red-light runner and although they're fixing it, it'll never be the same to me. So, the new SS's FE4 suspension along with the new steering wheel feel must have done something because now it feels more sporty to me, more balanced, more enjoyable to drive. Now I want the V8 car!

No doubt about it, the Camaro is a LOT of car in either form, and can get anyone into a LOT of trouble. However, opening it up for a couple seconds on an EMPTY stretch of highway, taking that "15 mph" corner at 35 mph when there is no traffic around and when you can SEE all the way around it, playing with the edge of traction from a stop sign to 60 mph when no traffic is in sight, or easily (and legally) passing the jerk in the fast lane who's going 10 under the speed limit? That isn't the epitome of stupidity in my eyes. Practical? Hell no. Reasonable? With half a brain and some manner of self control... I think it is. None of that is to mention the local drag strip, autocross, or road course for those of us who are self inclined and able. There isn't much that's better than driving your A to B to a legally sanctioned event, blasting it around for a couple of hours, then driving from the B back to the A!

Now lets forget all of that... When it's time to cruise back home from work late at night, I listen to the constant thrum of carefully timed explosions while sitting in my comfortable cocoon of relative safety (6 airbags and 5-stars aren't bad!), and I just enjoy my drive. It makes that point B to point A much less stressful.
If I want to drive half-way across the country, I get in and do it just the same. Smooth, quiet, and comfortable are three words that come to mind.

The amazing part? That's all in one car. I can't do that in the Civic, which is very ho-hum, basic and utilitarian... not something that can help me put away my worldly cares for a short time, not 'me'. If it is 'you', then congratulations! I get it!
Many different cars are 'them'... slow ones, ugly ones, and even powerful ones.

Is all that really so selfish, macho, and just plain stupid? Really?

[coolman]

Sorry couldn't get through your entire post ,but your boss is an idiot. Sounds like a staunch socialist liberal to me. He should move to England or France.

[ALLTRBO]

LOL... You gotta read at least the second paragraph.

[scrming]

Teenagers are the more likely to be involved in a car accident than any other age group... So, lets ban teenagers! LOL!

But yeah, I agree with completely with coolman!

[patternpilot]

I had a coworker many years ago who I looked up to as a mentor as well. His opinion on cars was that they are for getting from point A to point B only. Nothing more or less. While I liked the guy I realized that I can have my own opinion as well as he can have his. So I just chose to ignore him and life went on and I drove my fast cars and rode my Harleys.

[jandaseve]

is your boss communist?

[lil_chef]

i think the same person who drives a sports car aggressively on the road will drive an econo box just as aggressively. the difference being it is much safer to do so in the sports car since it is designed for it.

[The Stig]

Ask your boss this:

Take a 18 year old boy and a 35 year old man. Both single and living on there own and they both drive a 07 Honda civic. Why is it that the 18 year old boy's insurance is almost, if not double that of the 35 year olds?

Why is it many states are now banning the use of cell phones while operating a vehicle? Could it be because they are one of the leading causes of accidents?

How often do "sport"/muscle car drivers cause accidents, not counting the idiot street racers. Because let's be honest, the ricers street race just the same.

I'm sorry - your boss is full of poop

[SSE 4 2SS]

Originally Posted by ALLTRBO

I got into a debate today with my supervisor (whose opinion and experience I greatly respect on most things) about fast/powerful street cars. He's on the strictly practical side and says that no one should have a (street) car that accelerates or tops out any faster than it HAS to for any condition it'll reasonably come across (ie. My wife's 4-door automatic Civic is still too fast, though he's mainly referring to sports/muscle cars). He's all for limiting every car to 85-90 mph, and doesn't think any car should have a better power/weight ratio than the average econobox. He feels that people should only be able to have what they want (in this regard) so long as there is a HUGE tax on it so that, basically, no one can afford it. According to him, people who drive fast cars, by human nature, will automatically drive them more dangerously to some degree and cause more accidents, and the cars are a pointless drain on natural resources (oil), etc. etc. He says that on some basic level, it's all about fulfilling one's "macho-ness".

Now he isn't some pointless ranter, he is a very intelligent and very accomplished person who has done his share of stupid things when he was young, and in my job he is definitely a valuable mentor. He is spot on in most everything he speaks of, and when he isn't, he's willing to listen to the other side of the argument. He definitely isn't a greenie tree-hugger, either.
That being said, it bothers me more than it typically would that he essentially thinks I'm an idiot on the subject and that he disagrees with just about all of my points.

Yes, powerful cars are definitely more than one needs, but it isn't about practical needs. While their are many, many idiots who have these cars to fulfill some form of "macho-ness", it's far from all of us. For me personally, it's about the physics as a whole... the feel, sound, how the mechanics of the entire system work together to create something perfectly harmonious, even the aesthetics of the thing, those sculpted lines that flow together to create a look of purpose. All of it meshes together to create a whole that is more than the sum of the parts, something more than an A to B, something more than a bland tool to get you from here to there. It's what some would call a passion, something beyond the "practical". I would love driving my cars just the same, staring at them with a smile just the same, if there were no one else on Earth (though that would be awfully lonely without any gearheads with which to share conversation about them).
It just so happens that it also gets you from here to there.

No doubt about it, the Camaro is a LOT of car in either form, and can get anyone into a LOT of trouble. However, opening it up for a couple seconds on an EMPTY stretch of highway, taking that "15 mph" corner at 35 mph when there is no traffic around and when you can SEE all the way around it, playing with the edge of traction from a stop sign to 60 mph when no traffic is in sight, or easily (and legally) passing the jerk in the fast lane who's going 10 under the speed limit? That isn't the epitome of stupidity in my eyes. Practical? Hell no. Reasonable? With half a brain and some manner of self control... I think it is. None of that is to mention the local drag strip, autocross, or road course for those of us who are self inclined and able. There isn't much that's better than driving your A to B to a legally sanctioned event, blasting it around for a couple of hours, then driving from the B back to the A!


The amazing part? That's all in one car. I can't do that in the Civic, which is very ho-hum, basic and utilitarian... not something that can help me put away my worldly cares for a short time, not 'me'. If it is 'you', then congratulations! I get it!
Many different cars are 'them'... slow ones, ugly ones, and even powerful ones.

Is all that really so selfish, macho, and just plain stupid? Really?

I've been in similar conversations... and here is my take...

Freedom.... We have generations of people that have given all to insure we have the freedom to make choices...

These choices are based on personal beliefs, which are derived from our upbringing and our environment, our perceptions and desires....

Answer this for me... Does your boss wear a suit... If so... why... polo shirts or t-shirts or simple button downs are practical... Suits are for show... plain and simple...and it takes more resources to make a suit than it does to make a t-shirt...especially when considering all of the supporting fluff... Cuff links, a matching level watch... expensive ties.... etc... Society deems it the standard that in given situations you dress to a certain level... Why... because of someone elses opinion, or our own desire to fit societal norms... Is a suit practical, or is it the norm...?

Where does this boss live... in an economical/efficiency apartment, or in a nice house, with a yard.... The apt situation is practical... and is less of a drain on personal and environmental resources... The house is more of a drain on personal and environmental resources... So, which is practical....

Is the Camaro practical, regardless of the trim level... Well... Mine averaged over 26 mpg before it was modified, and now still averages over 23 mpg... Its safety rating is as high as the scale goes.... It is comfortable beyond most anything I've ever owned or driven... Wifes thoughts and comments, and she has lower back issues... Yes, arguably there are more practical daily drivers out there... but remember...

LIFE is not all about being practical... If we were a bunch of automatons... maybe... Most of our holidays are not practical... they interrupt work... Weekends are not practical, for the same reasons... Some would argue that they are a time for recovering from the stress of the work week... do they all need to be at the same time... why not stagger break periods so that there is no stoppage or interruption in work...Then if something is promised to be delivered in ten days, it's ten days, not 14 due to there being two weekends thrown in...

Before the flaming begins... These are random arguments and not necessarily my beliefs... they are just food for thought...

Freedom... We have the freedom to choose, and others have the freedom to criticize... turn it around in an intelligent duscussion and see where it goes... There is no reason for it to be heated though... you dont even have to really believe your points, just have them well thought out...

[9.8m/s/s]

I think that your boss is right, however its because he's not a car person. For most people on this site cars are a hobby and a personal interest not just transportation.
What does your boss do for a hobby? say its golf or something you could make the same argument that its a waste of resources and time that could be spent at work.

[LittleMT]

crap, this long post is hard to read on my phone while driving my 616hp Camaro dangerously......

[coolman]

Originally Posted by SSE 4 2SS

I've been in similar conversations... and here is my take...

Freedom.... We have generations of people that have given all to insure we have the freedom to make choices...

These choices are based on personal beliefs, which are derived from our upbringing and our environment, our perceptions and desires....

Answer this for me... Does your boss wear a suit... If so... why... polo shirts or t-shirts or simple button downs are practical... Suits are for show... plain and simple...and it takes more resources to make a suit than it does to make a t-shirt...especially when considering all of the supporting fluff... Cuff links, a matching level watch... expensive ties.... etc... Society deems it the standard that in given situations you dress to a certain level... Why... because of someone elses opinion, or our own desire to fit societal norms... Is a suit practical, or is it the norm...?

Where does this boss live... in an economical/efficiency apartment, or in a nice house, with a yard.... The apt situation is practical... and is less of a drain on personal and environmental resources... The house is more of a drain on personal and environmental resources... So, which is practical....

Is the Camaro practical, regardless of the trim level... Well... Mine averaged over 26 mpg before it was modified, and now still averages over 23 mpg... Its safety rating is as high as the scale goes.... It is comfortable beyond most anything I've ever owned or driven... Wifes thoughts and comments, and she has lower back issues... Yes, arguably there are more practical daily drivers out there... but remember...

LIFE is not all about being practical... If we were a bunch of automatons... maybe... Most of our holidays are not practical... they interrupt work... Weekends are not practical, for the same reasons... Some would argue that they are a time for recovering from the stress of the work week... do they all need to be at the same time... why not stagger break periods so that there is no stoppage or interruption in work...Then if something is promised to be delivered in ten days, it's ten days, not 14 due to there being two weekends thrown in...

Before the flaming begins... These are random arguments and not necessarily my beliefs... they are just food for thought...

Freedom... We have the freedom to choose, and others have the freedom to criticize... turn it around in an intelligent duscussion and see where it goes... There is no reason for it to be heated though... you dont even have to really believe your points, just have them well thought out...

I said the same thing with a lot less words. Which means I must be more efficient. Not really. Well played sir.

[white 2SS/RS]

Originally Posted by LittleMT

crap, this long post is hard to read on my phone while driving my 616hp Camaro dangerously......

[KXRM]

There are a lot of people that are perfectly happy with whatever gets them around with no concern for what it looks like or how it feels to drive so long as it feels safe. I respect their desire to drive around that way. I don't judge them for driving econoboxes.

However there is a fairly fatal flaw in his argument. He could walk or ride a bike. No waste of resources. Simply move to a location close to work and grocery stores. He is, in fact, enjoying a luxury even in an econobox.

I also hear that Air Conditioning is a strain on resources. It's not necessary for survival either.

[Captain Awesome]

I bet your boss doesn't think people should own guns either.

No family should have more than 2 children too, right?

Tell him we don't want to live in Ameritopia!

[jmaryt]

Originally Posted by ALLTRBO

I got into a debate today with my supervisor (whose opinion and experience I greatly respect on most things) about fast/powerful street cars. He's on the strictly practical side and says that no one should have a (street) car that accelerates or tops out any faster than it HAS to for any condition it'll reasonably come across (ie. My wife's 4-door automatic Civic is still too fast, though he's mainly referring to sports/muscle cars). He's all for limiting every car to 85-90 mph, and doesn't think any car should have a better power/weight ratio than the average econobox. He feels that people should only be able to have what they want (in this regard) so long as there is a HUGE tax on it so that, basically, no one can afford it. According to him, people who drive fast cars, by human nature, will automatically drive them more dangerously to some degree and cause more accidents, and the cars are a pointless drain on natural resources (oil), etc. etc. He says that on some basic level, it's all about fulfilling one's "macho-ness".

Now he isn't some pointless ranter, he is a very intelligent and very accomplished person who has done his share of stupid things when he was young, and in my job he is definitely a valuable mentor. He is spot on in most everything he speaks of, and when he isn't, he's willing to listen to the other side of the argument. He definitely isn't a greenie tree-hugger, either.
That being said, it bothers me more than it typically would that he essentially thinks I'm an idiot on the subject and that he disagrees with just about all of my points.

Yes, powerful cars are definitely more than one needs, but it isn't about practical needs. While their are many, many idiots who have these cars to fulfill some form of "macho-ness", it's far from all of us. For me personally, it's about the physics as a whole... the feel, sound, how the mechanics of the entire system work together to create something perfectly harmonious, even the aesthetics of the thing, those sculpted lines that flow together to create a look of purpose. All of it meshes together to create a whole that is more than the sum of the parts, something more than an A to B, something more than a bland tool to get you from here to there. It's what some would call a passion, something beyond the "practical". I would love driving my cars just the same, staring at them with a smile just the same, if there were no one else on Earth (though that would be awfully lonely without any gearheads with which to share conversation about them).
It just so happens that it also gets you from here to there.

I bought my 2010 V6 Camaro because I liked the way it drove better than the SS, it felt like less of a fast 'truck' (keyword: truck). I also love all the technology in that sweet V6, and it's still no slouch. I've always been a V8 guy, but I'm a car guy first and foremost. The V8 is better in the ways V8's are, but I liked the V6 car this time. While that is already enough to make any "practical" person scoff in disapproval, I'm now thinking of trading it in on a '12 SS because I got T-boned a couple weeks ago from a red-light runner and although they're fixing it, it'll never be the same to me. So, the new SS's FE4 suspension along with the new steering wheel feel must have done something because now it feels more sporty to me, more balanced, more enjoyable to drive. Now I want the V8 car!

No doubt about it, the Camaro is a LOT of car in either form, and can get anyone into a LOT of trouble. However, opening it up for a couple seconds on an EMPTY stretch of highway, taking that "15 mph" corner at 35 mph when there is no traffic around and when you can SEE all the way around it, playing with the edge of traction from a stop sign to 60 mph when no traffic is in sight, or easily (and legally) passing the jerk in the fast lane who's going 10 under the speed limit? That isn't the epitome of stupidity in my eyes. Practical? Hell no. Reasonable? With half a brain and some manner of self control... I think it is. None of that is to mention the local drag strip, autocross, or road course for those of us who are self inclined and able. There isn't much that's better than driving your A to B to a legally sanctioned event, blasting it around for a couple of hours, then driving from the B back to the A!

Now lets forget all of that... When it's time to cruise back home from work late at night, I listen to the constant thrum of carefully timed explosions while sitting in my comfortable cocoon of relative safety (6 airbags and 5-stars aren't bad!), and I just enjoy my drive. It makes that point B to point A much less stressful.
If I want to drive half-way across the country, I get in and do it just the same. Smooth, quiet, and comfortable are three words that come to mind.

The amazing part? That's all in one car. I can't do that in the Civic, which is very ho-hum, basic and utilitarian... not something that can help me put away my worldly cares for a short time, not 'me'. If it is 'you', then congratulations! I get it!
Many different cars are 'them'... slow ones, ugly ones, and even powerful ones.

Is all that really so selfish, macho, and just plain stupid? Really?

your boss is "absolutely" correct! this is NOT a "practical" car,however,people who buy camaros know this,and could care less,because they are NOT buying the car to be practical,they are buying it because the car is enjoyable to drive,but to be perfectly honest,a LOT of cars meet that criteria.not JUST the camaro!.with that said,my wife loves the fact that this "camaro" rides smoothly,and is ,i believe one of,if not THE safest cars on the road.built like a tank,sporty,fast,and STILL returns over 20 miles to the gallon,but ,alas,i guess this is still NOT practical enough!..oh well i still like it though!..just sayin'

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by coolman

Sorry couldn't get through your entire post ,but your boss is an idiot.

I don't mean to offend your boss...you clearly have a high level of regard for him...but I agree with coolman, here. I have to question this man's ability to make sound decisions on anything if he wasn't joking about this...

[8cd03gro]

I stopped reading after the basic explanation of his thought process. You can apply it to anything. We live in excess. Big TV's are a waste of resources, lights brighter than you need to read at night are a waste of resources. . . owning your own car rather than using public transportation, walking or riding a bike, is a waste of resources. We waste resources to have fun. You're going to keep doing it, I'm going to keep doing it, everyone that is able to is going to keep doing it until they run out, that's just how we are. Your boss is just such an uptight, pompus ninny he thinks he's above all that. You want to talk about dangerous and a waste of resources we should talk about the mom of one with a 7,000lb SUV that gets 5mpg with 9 seats.

[Brutal SS]

Clothes should be only to cover the body and should not to be designed for anything other than its core purpose. Food is for nourishment only, therefore no one should be adding anything to it or consuming more than what is needed for sustenance...

This mentality is what lies at the heart of tyranny, and people should not expect others to live out their one and only existence to hold all things strictly in a practical sense. The free expression of all views should be maintained, but this opinion should be met with contempt at every turn. Your boss would be happier in North Korea. This is the land of the free, so live free or die trying, and never apologize for your right to pursue happiness! :flag2:

[a_Username]

Originally Posted by 8cd03gro

I stopped reading after the basic explanation of his thought process. You can apply it to anything. We live in excess. Big TV's are a waste of resources, lights brighter than you need to read at night are a waste of resources. . . owning your own car rather than using public transportation, walking or riding a bike, is a waste of resources. We waste resources to have fun. You're going to keep doing it, I'm going to keep doing it, everyone that is able to is going to keep doing it until they run out, that's just how we are. Your boss is just such an uptight, pompus ninny he thinks he's above all that. You want to talk about dangerous and a waste of resources we should talk about the mom of one with a 7,000lb SUV that gets 5mpg with 9 seats.

It's like this guy just read Robert Frank's new book, The Darwin Economy.

Anyways, the only thing that needs to be said is Property Rights > Boss.

[fielderLS3]

No one asked the important question: What does the boss drive?

Too bad he is your boss. There are sooooooo many things you could say back if he wasn't. If you've really got guts, you could say something along the lines of "no company needs more profit than is absolutely necessary. Once the bills are paid, everything beyond that should go for employee raises." Same logic, really.

You know the boss doesn't need the money, since he doesn't ever buy anything but the bare necessities anyway. Unless he is a hypocrite...but I'm sure that couldn't be the case, could it? He's not one of those "do as I say, not as I do" because he's smarter than you and can run everyone's life better than themselves types, is he? Certainly not.

[Brutal SS]

Originally Posted by fielderLS3

No one asked the important question: What does the boss drive?

Too bad he is your boss. There are sooooooo many things you could say back if he wasn't. If you've really got guts, you could say something along the lines of "no company needs more profit than is absolutely necessary. Once the bills are paid, everything beyond that should go for employee raises." Same logic, really.

You know the boss doesn't need the money, since he doesn't ever buy anything but the bare necessities anyway. Unless he is a hypocrite...but I'm sure that couldn't be the case, could it? He's not one of those "do as I say, not as I do" because he's smarter than you and can run everyone's life better than themselves types, is he? Certainly not.

You sir, are spot on!

[bmwdon]

does he live in a shack or a nice place? nobody "needs" a nice place either, but when you hit a certain age or accomplish certain things, you usually end up buying a nice "big" place. usually ends up using more electricity and gas to heat and keep lit/maintained vs. a small economical 750-1000 sq. ft. rambler. Some folks like things of excess.

[CamaroSkooter]

In America, we have the freedom of choice, just like Robert said.

Your boss can choose to be a utilitarian and lament about how everyone wastes unnecessary resources.

We can all choose to lament that he is wasting air, water, and other precious natural resources just by being alive.

[JoshBobGuptaMarley]

I have seen many very intelligent people make stupid unrealistic comments about how they would better the world....this is a free country and your guy wants to live like a Cambodian. What a silly person.