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Old 01-03-2012, 07:35 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by DevilsReject97 View Post
Really?

I'm going to view that post as you were just dumb struck by the awesomeness of a ZL1 Camaro.....

The various models of Roush, Shelby, and the now resurgent Boss Mustang have all sold regularly for anywhere from 45k-80k....

People will want it, and given a year or two to mature, the price will actually come down some.... Count on the ZL1 being around for quite a while..
Yes, and some people are buying ZR1 Corvettes at $117,000 plus, the question is, how many units can you sell at those prices.How many Roush, Shelby, and Boss Mustangs are they selling? Surely far, far fewer than the GT500 version. One need only look at history to see that a high dollar version does not always sell well in many different models by different manufacturers. The original ZL1 in 1969 only had 69 ZL1 content Camaros built, many never sold in that configuration and sat on dealers lots for a long, long time until some had the ZL1 engine stripped out and sold by itself and other less expensive 427cid engines were substituted by the dealers to get the price down enough to sell them. Automotive history is full of high priced versions that did not sell well.
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Old 01-03-2012, 07:41 PM   #27
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The ZL1 was never supposed to be a big volume car. If 10% of Camaro sales are ZL1, I bet GM will be more than happy.

As for people not spending 60k on their Camaros ... there are plenty of people that have spent roughly $40k on a loaded 2SS, then another 15 or 20 grand on mods. It doesn't take long for mod money to add up.
And while that is very true, the number of people buying that SS and spending big bucks on mods is a limited number when compared to the total numbers of SS models built. Aside from the limited number of enthusiasts dedicated to "improving" and spending more on their SS with mods, line up any random twenty SS Camaros parked at a shopping mall on an average day, now how many of those have spent $15,000 plus on mods??
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Old 01-03-2012, 08:20 PM   #28
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There is another group that appreciates an upgraded car, but won't spend crazy money for it. Yet another prefers the upgrades coming from the factory. Then there are those that don't want an over the top GT car, but want a more serious track car.

Different strokes for different folks.
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Old 01-04-2012, 09:25 AM   #29
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Yes, and some people are buying ZR1 Corvettes at $117,000 plus, the question is, how many units can you sell at those prices.How many Roush, Shelby, and Boss Mustangs are they selling? Surely far, far fewer than the GT500 version. One need only look at history to see that a high dollar version does not always sell well in many different models by different manufacturers. The original ZL1 in 1969 only had 69 ZL1 content Camaros built, many never sold in that configuration and sat on dealers lots for a long, long time until some had the ZL1 engine stripped out and sold by itself and other less expensive 427cid engines were substituted by the dealers to get the price down enough to sell them. Automotive history is full of high priced versions that did not sell well.
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First off, the Dodge Viper has been sold on a limited number basically since it's inception, and they've pretty much routinely sold most if not all of them. Roughly a 1000 models a year for the last 13-14 years... at roughly 85-90k a pop

Also, the GT500's have generally always seen ridiculous markups where I've seen, while the Roush's tend to be special order....and the same applies for the Boss Mustangs..
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Old 01-04-2012, 11:58 AM   #30
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First off, the Dodge Viper has been sold on a limited number basically since it's inception, and they've pretty much routinely sold most if not all of them. Roughly a 1000 models a year for the last 13-14 years... at roughly 85-90k a pop

Also, the GT500's have generally always seen ridiculous markups where I've seen, while the Roush's tend to be special order....and the same applies for the Boss Mustangs..
The point is the masses, the populace, the common people cannot afford these cars. How many ZL1's are going to be in your neighborhood, your city, your state? Just as many Viper's, Shelby's, and...................... as there are now.
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Old 01-04-2012, 12:44 PM   #31
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htron50, as a member in good standing here, in ZEE-land, I believe we "true believers" accept your gift, as offered, in the true spirit for which it was offered. No doubt many different components have been tested under camo...including hoods. "Could it be?!" Again, we certainly hope so...
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:03 PM   #32
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look at the pic with the "open scoop" in the front, it is obviously crudely dremmeled or cut out with a grinder for testing purposes
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:13 PM   #33
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Of some historical significance:

1969 Camaro Model Year production figures -

Camaro SS 350 (L48, all models/trannies) = 22,339

Camaro SS 396/375hp (L78 & L89 combined) = 5,200

Camaro COPO (estimated, both engines) = 1,000

MSRP, Base, SS 396-L78 and COPO 9561-L72 and Z/28 = SAME (within $100!)

Total SS (Z27 Option) Production = 34,932, all models/engines

Camaro Z/28 = 20,302, which is over 3 TIMES as many as all other solid-cammed (read: HIGH PERFORMANCE) Camaros that year...

Sources: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=802
http://www.gmheritagecenter.com/gm-h...let-Camaro.pdf Page 173 of pdf file.

Why WOULDN'T GM offer a "suitably-badged" and properly-priced and -contented ZEE?!

Cache'...in SPADES!
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:49 PM   #34
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Here is the Synergy Green test car with a different hood and holes for pins ... Think it may be a stretch saying the hood makes it a different model. But guess you never know.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134175

Looking closer at the camo'd hood, do I see what looks like the Hot Wheels hood??? YUMMY!!!
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:29 PM   #35
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The ZL1 was never supposed to be a big volume car. If 10% of Camaro sales are ZL1, I bet GM will be more than happy.

As for people not spending 60k on their Camaros ... there are plenty of people that have spent roughly $40k on a loaded 2SS, then another 15 or 20 grand on mods. It doesn't take long for mod money to add up.
Thats different then being financied for $60k...
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:31 PM   #36
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WOULDN'T[/I] GM offer a "suitably-badged" and properly-priced and -contented ZEE?!

Cache'...in SPADES!
Because GM is technically broke. Thye never fully paid back their bailout from the government and never resolved the issues they had in the first place. Couple that with a borderline depression and new government fuel standards (going up to 54.6 mpg by 2025) I dont see how they can.

Look keep on dreaming and always looking for the next best thing. It wasnt that long ago you guys were hoping for a ZL1. now you have it and for some reason it isnt good enough. And more than likely you wont be able to afford a Z28 anyway (if they happen to ever come out with one).... so why the discussion???

By the way, the ZL1 is about as much power as you are going to see out of a stock Camaro. I PROMISE you that insurance companies are not going to allow the HP wars to continue as it has gotten too dangerous. Most of the people who buy these cars cannot properly drive them so they are an accident waiting to happen.
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:32 PM   #37
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WOW!

Just...wow...

1) A Gen-5 Camaro has a "best before" date of MY '15...long before '25...

2) Banko...really?! Gee, we better run for the hills...

3) A Z/28, priced in the $40's, will be substantially less expen$ive than the ZL1...which, given "the times", makes even more sense (and cents) than the ZL1, whose raison d'etre is to compete with/conquer the GT 500, a car no one regularly enjoying this Section cares a tinker's damn about...

4) A 500 hp Z/28 carrying 200 fewer pounds will acquit itself very well, thank you, against the BOSS (in ANY form), the target for, and hopeful result of, these discussions that you so ignominiously (and fully unprepared) have chosen to try to squelch...nice try.

5) "We" are here because we are NOT fully engaged in the ZL1 program...not our car, not our style...

6) Again...WOW! But thanks for playing...don't forget your lovely parting gift on your way out.
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:37 PM   #38
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By the way, the ZL1 is about as much power as you are going to see out of a stock Camaro. I PROMISE you that insurance companies are not going to allow the HP wars to continue as it has gotten too dangerous. Most of the people who buy these cars cannot properly drive them so they are an accident waiting to happen.
Like the insurance companies are going to dictate what GM builds... If that were the case Corvettes would not be on the road... The only one to possibly stop the HP wars are the Govt or the auto makers themselves... but as long as there is a market I don't see that happening...
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:38 PM   #39
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By the way I wasnt directing my "cant afford it" post at anyone in particular. Just in general since most people wouldnt be able to afford it. It would have to be a significant improvement over the new GT500 to come out (again if GM could swing it) and that would bump the rpice up near 6 figures for that kind of performance. Not too many people can afford that kind of car in this economy. And if they could I dont see them buying a 6 figure Camaro.
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:42 PM   #40
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Like the insurance companies are going to dictate what GM builds... If that were the case Corvettes would not be on the road... The only one to possibly stop the HP wars are the Govt or the auto makers themselves... but as long as there is a market I don't see that happening...
Insurance companies can deny covering cars... and if they wont cover it who will drive it??? The government will direct what GM builds..... since they are part owner... and the government is bought and paid for by lobbyists... and some of them from the insurance industry. Anytime lawyers get involved things change. Like I said earlier, look at the 70's when the HP wars got killed off then. We have the same economic situation now... but more environmentalists in the government.

The simplest way to put it, the government has directed the fuel milage changes. Car companies can not continue to build 500-600hp cars and meet the standards. If they do it will take some new technology that isnt out there currently. And if they day I will be a very happy man. If I could get a 600hp car and also get 30mpg I would learn to do cartwheels.
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:20 PM   #41
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By the way I wasnt directing my "cant afford it" post at anyone in particular. Just in general since most people wouldnt be able to afford it. It would have to be a significant improvement over the new GT500 to come out (again if GM could swing it) and that would bump the rpice up near 6 figures for that kind of performance. Not too many people can afford that kind of car in this economy. And if they could I dont see them buying a 6 figure Camaro.
Please feel free to share your extensive knowledge of the GT 500, and what a "proper" Camaro competitor would be/cost, with our bruthas 'n sistas over here:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=85

I'm sure you'll receive a worthy welcoming...
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Old 01-04-2012, 07:12 PM   #42
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Thats different then being financied for $60k...
Yes and no. If you can afford to pay $60k one way, you can afford to pay $60k the other way too. And if the difference between the two breaks you, chance are you can't actually afford either one.
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Because GM is technically broke. Thye never fully paid back their bailout from the government and never resolved the issues they had in the first place. Couple that with a borderline depression and new government fuel standards (going up to 54.6 mpg by 2025) I dont see how they can.

Look keep on dreaming and always looking for the next best thing. It wasnt that long ago you guys were hoping for a ZL1. now you have it and for some reason it isnt good enough. And more than likely you wont be able to afford a Z28 anyway (if they happen to ever come out with one).... so why the discussion???

By the way, the ZL1 is about as much power as you are going to see out of a stock Camaro. I PROMISE you that insurance companies are not going to allow the HP wars to continue as it has gotten too dangerous. Most of the people who buy these cars cannot properly drive them so they are an accident waiting to happen.
GM paid back all their loan obligations. And they aren't broke, unless you consider raking in billions in profit constitutes 'broke'. And corporate average fuel economy is an average, and its calculated in such a way that it reduces the effect of low volume vehicles, and in particular low volume vehicles that are less efficient. With GM selling some 2.5 million cars & trucks, a few thousand high performance cars will barely move the needle.

Most of us that want a Z28 never wanted a supercharged car. And its not because its not 'good enough', I think we can all agree that its going to be a great car. But its not the Camaro we want. The V6 is a great car, its just not the Camaro I want. The SS is a great car, its just not the Camaro I want. Would I be happy with either of them (or a ZL1)? I'm sure I would. But I'd be be happier with a Z28 along the lines of whats been discussed in this section.

Now, if you yourself don't want a Z28, or don't expect a Z28, or don't think that a Z28, or in any other way have no interest in positively contributing to the discussions in the Z28 section of this forum, I kindly ask you to find other areas of the site to participate in.
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Old 01-04-2012, 07:45 PM   #43
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Yes and no. If you can afford to pay $60k one way, you can afford to pay $60k the other way too. And if the difference between the two breaks you, chance are you can't actually afford either one.

GM paid back all their loan obligations. And they aren't broke, unless you consider raking in billions in profit constitutes 'broke'. And corporate average fuel economy is an average, and its calculated in such a way that it reduces the effect of low volume vehicles, and in particular low volume vehicles that are less efficient. With GM selling some 2.5 million cars & trucks, a few thousand high performance cars will barely move the needle.

Actually no they didnt. They took TARP money and paid back the bailout money... so thy techinically still owe 4.7 billion. And what did they do to fix the problems that got them there in the first place???

During an April 20 hearing on Capital Hill, Sen. Tom Carper, (D-Del.) asked some pointed questions of Neil Barofsky, the “special watch dog” on the Wall Street Bailout, aka, TARP.

It’s good news in that they’re reducing their debt,” Barofsky said of the accelerated GM payments, “but they’re doing it by taking other available TARP money.”…

“It sounds like it’s kind of like taking money out of one pocket and putting in the other,” said Carper, who got a nod of agreement from Barofsky.

“The way that payment is going to be made is by drawing down on an equity facility of other TARP money.”

AS of 4 Aug 2011 "GM emerged from bankruptcy in 2009 after a $52 billion taxpayer-funded bailout orchestrated by the Obama administration. The U.S. Treasury still owns 32 percent of GM's common shares."

That means the American taxpayer owns 16.6 billion worth of GM... so I wouldnt say they paid it all back. There has been a lot of misinformation about this but if you do some research you will find the truth.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44016286...early-doubles/


Most of us that want a Z28 never wanted a supercharged car. And its not because its not 'good enough', I think we can all agree that its going to be a great car. But its not the Camaro we want. The V6 is a great car, its just not the Camaro I want. The SS is a great car, its just not the Camaro I want. Would I be happy with either of them (or a ZL1)? I'm sure I would. But I'd be be happier with a Z28 along the lines of whats been discussed in this section.

Understood. But automakers can not make a car that everyone wants because everyone wants something different. They can only produce so many variations of one car before it gets very cost prohibitive. A new production line would need to be created to build the additonal model. I am not sure how easy that would be after seeing the video showing the production of the Camaros. It is all by machine.... except two steps of it). A Z28 would need to be an upgrade to what the ZL1 is because what is the point of producing a car that would already come close to whats is being produced (SS-ZL1)? Bottom line is they are not going ot produce a car for every individual out there. If that were the case there would be about 10 different Corvettes... for an example.

Now, if you yourself don't want a Z28, or don't expect a Z28, or don't think that a Z28, or in any other way have no interest in positively contributing to the discussions in the Z28 section of this forum, I kindly ask you to find other areas of the site to participate in.

I'm sorry. I thought this was still a free country and I had free speech. I guess if it doesnt go along with what you want to hear I should just go somewhere else. Sorry. Not happening. By the way, I wish they would come out with a Z28 that would one up the new GT500... say one with close to 700hp. I for one like the hp wars and wish it would keep going. I am not a tree hugger and dont believe that I should drive a Prius just because someone else... including the government... says I should. We are still a free country and should be able to drive what we want. IF the Z28 comes out I will be happy as I believe it should have been out instead of the ZL1. The Z28 has history and it should be continued. Unfortunately I am a realist and I see where our country is headed and I see what the economy truly is. If things dont turn around it will not come out and we will go back to the days of mundane 280hp cars. I guess the brightside is we will all be getting 55 mpg... at least those of us that have to get new cars.
By the way, trucks are not figured in the mpg regulations coming down. Only cars... and since only a couple of cars they have right now can even come close, do you really think they will produce a limited production car when it is going to cost them billions to find ways to make their other vehicles reach 55 mpg... and an average at that???
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:17 PM   #44
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I'm not going to get into a discussion on CAFE or the bailout in this thread. I will reply (at some point) privately though. I encourage anyone else that wishes to talk about these things with HTP Autoworks do the same. Both of those topics inevitably turn from facts into politics, and I don't want this thread to get derailed by that.

As for your participation in this area, its not about getting rid of people that disagree. My point was that if you're not interested in the Z28 we've been expecting, there are probably other places on Camaro5 that you'd enjoy more (and would welcome you more). For example, if what you want is a 700 hp GT500 competitor, thats fine. Head on over to the ZL1 forum and see what the folks over there think of such a car. If there is anything that should be such a monster, its the ZL1. After all, the ZL1 is the big dog, the ultimate, the king kong, the be-all and end-all Camaro. I'm sure there will be some receptive ears for the type of car you want to see over there. And they'll be open to discussing what may or may not be possible/practical/desirable and so on.

Lastly ... freedom of speech applies to speaking in public. This forum, although open to the public, is in fact privately owned and operated.
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:26 PM   #45
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Ok I got the message...back to my favorite station Z28!
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:42 PM   #46
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I'm not going to get into a discussion on CAFE or the bailout in this thread. I will reply (at some point) privately though. I encourage anyone else that wishes to talk about these things with HTP Autoworks do the same. Both of those topics inevitably turn from facts into politics, and I don't want this thread to get derailed by that.

As for your participation in this area, its not about getting rid of people that disagree. My point was that if you're not interested in the Z28 we've been expecting, there are probably other places on Camaro5 that you'd enjoy more (and would welcome you more). For example, if what you want is a 700 hp GT500 competitor, thats fine. Head on over to the ZL1 forum and see what the folks over there think of such a car. If there is anything that should be such a monster, its the ZL1. After all, the ZL1 is the big dog, the ultimate, the king kong, the be-all and end-all Camaro. I'm sure there will be some receptive ears for the type of car you want to see over there. And they'll be open to discussing what may or may not be possible/practical/desirable and so on.

Lastly ... freedom of speech applies to speaking in public. This forum, although open to the public, is in fact privately owned and operated.
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Old 01-04-2012, 08:52 PM   #47
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I am getting a ZL1, Ok. But, a Z28 is still a Z28. A name that is still the ICON. ZL1 may be a FLASH IN THE PAN much like 1969. I may be a lucky owner of a ZL1 shortly, but I WILL FOREVER ADMIRE AND DESIRE a Z28 of this generation. People will someday see the new Z28, whatever GM does, and we KNOW it will be AWESOME. Maybe I could have an automatic ZL1 and a stick Z28. Talk about a dream garage! Ok, allow me to come back down to reality...........
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Old 01-04-2012, 09:19 PM   #48
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Because GM is technically broke. Thye never fully paid back their bailout from the government and never resolved the issues they had in the first place. Couple that with a borderline depression and new government fuel standards (going up to 54.6 mpg by 2025) I dont see how they can.

Look keep on dreaming and always looking for the next best thing. It wasnt that long ago you guys were hoping for a ZL1. now you have it and for some reason it isnt good enough. And more than likely you wont be able to afford a Z28 anyway (if they happen to ever come out with one).... so why the discussion???

By the way, the ZL1 is about as much power as you are going to see out of a stock Camaro. I PROMISE you that insurance companies are not going to allow the HP wars to continue as it has gotten too dangerous. Most of the people who buy these cars cannot properly drive them so they are an accident waiting to happen.
Obviously you have not read enough of the threads in the Z/28 forum to understand what we die hard Z/28 fans have wanted all along, it certainly is not a ZL1 (though that will be an awesome car), it certainly is not something with more HP than a ZL1 (doesn't need to be if it's lighter than a ZL1), and it is most certainly not something more expensive than a ZL1 (we're looking for something to fill the big whole in the 40K plus bracket between the SS and the ZL1). OK, explanations for newcomers to the Z/28 forum are over, now back to our regularly scheduled friendly and civilized Z/28 discussions!!
Clyde
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Old 01-04-2012, 09:31 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by DevilsReject97 View Post
First off, the Dodge Viper has been sold on a limited number basically since it's inception, and they've pretty much routinely sold most if not all of them. Roughly a 1000 models a year for the last 13-14 years... at roughly 85-90k a pop

Also, the GT500's have generally always seen ridiculous markups where I've seen, while the Roush's tend to be special order....and the same applies for the Boss Mustangs..
And your point would be?? We are discussing a reasonable (in price) performance option that can be sold to a fair number of people. A 1,000 units a year of a Dodge Viper is a drop in the bucket, a whole lot more people would be interested in a good performing Z/28 @ 45k-48k than would be interested in a Viper @ 85k-90k (let's see now, do I want one Viper that is pretty rad or do I want two Z/28s for the same price....I'll take two thank you). I would expect to see sales for a Z/28 in the price range I mentioned at 5k plus units a year.
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Old 01-05-2012, 06:48 AM   #50
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And your point would be?? We are discussing a reasonable (in price) performance option that can be sold to a fair number of people. A 1,000 units a year of a Dodge Viper is a drop in the bucket, a whole lot more people would be interested in a good performing Z/28 @ 45k-48k than would be interested in a Viper @ 85k-90k (let's see now, do I want one Viper that is pretty rad or do I want two Z/28s for the same price....I'll take two thank you). I would expect to see sales for a Z/28 in the price range I mentioned at 5k plus units a year.
Clyde
Trust me I would LOVE to see the Z28 come out but I think it is a little ridiculous to think that the head of GM is going to listen to you guys and go hey "they want a Z28 that will basically be a little higher performance than an SS yet cost less than the ZL1... so lets build it." It wont happen... and to sit her eand speculate that it will seems silly to me. Maybe if they got rid of the SS then yes I can see it. But like I posted earleir these cars are built on a robotic assembly line at the same plant. Do you expect them to build another line for a car that really wont be much different than the SS? maybe I am missing something here but I just dont see the logic in it. A Z28 should be their flagship Camaro... as it has... not a mid model car.

And by your justification (in the Z28/Viper) example, someone should get two V6 Camaros instead of a ZL1. A Viper is a track ready HAND BUILT street legal car that has set just about every track record out there. A ZL1 didnt fair so well at the Ring (in comparison) and is built by robots on an assembly line.
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