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Old 01-04-2012, 09:25 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by wildpaws View Post
Yes, and some people are buying ZR1 Corvettes at $117,000 plus, the question is, how many units can you sell at those prices.How many Roush, Shelby, and Boss Mustangs are they selling? Surely far, far fewer than the GT500 version. One need only look at history to see that a high dollar version does not always sell well in many different models by different manufacturers. The original ZL1 in 1969 only had 69 ZL1 content Camaros built, many never sold in that configuration and sat on dealers lots for a long, long time until some had the ZL1 engine stripped out and sold by itself and other less expensive 427cid engines were substituted by the dealers to get the price down enough to sell them. Automotive history is full of high priced versions that did not sell well.
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First off, the Dodge Viper has been sold on a limited number basically since it's inception, and they've pretty much routinely sold most if not all of them. Roughly a 1000 models a year for the last 13-14 years... at roughly 85-90k a pop

Also, the GT500's have generally always seen ridiculous markups where I've seen, while the Roush's tend to be special order....and the same applies for the Boss Mustangs..
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Old 01-04-2012, 11:58 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by DevilsReject97 View Post
First off, the Dodge Viper has been sold on a limited number basically since it's inception, and they've pretty much routinely sold most if not all of them. Roughly a 1000 models a year for the last 13-14 years... at roughly 85-90k a pop

Also, the GT500's have generally always seen ridiculous markups where I've seen, while the Roush's tend to be special order....and the same applies for the Boss Mustangs..
The point is the masses, the populace, the common people cannot afford these cars. How many ZL1's are going to be in your neighborhood, your city, your state? Just as many Viper's, Shelby's, and...................... as there are now.
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Old 01-04-2012, 12:44 PM   #31
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htron50, as a member in good standing here, in ZEE-land, I believe we "true believers" accept your gift, as offered, in the true spirit for which it was offered. No doubt many different components have been tested under camo...including hoods. "Could it be?!" Again, we certainly hope so...
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:03 PM   #32
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look at the pic with the "open scoop" in the front, it is obviously crudely dremmeled or cut out with a grinder for testing purposes
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:13 PM   #33
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Of some historical significance:

1969 Camaro Model Year production figures -

Camaro SS 350 (L48, all models/trannies) = 22,339

Camaro SS 396/375hp (L78 & L89 combined) = 5,200

Camaro COPO (estimated, both engines) = 1,000

MSRP, Base, SS 396-L78 and COPO 9561-L72 and Z/28 = SAME (within $100!)

Total SS (Z27 Option) Production = 34,932, all models/engines

Camaro Z/28 = 20,302, which is over 3 TIMES as many as all other solid-cammed (read: HIGH PERFORMANCE) Camaros that year...

Sources: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=802
http://www.gmheritagecenter.com/gm-h...let-Camaro.pdf Page 173 of pdf file.

Why WOULDN'T GM offer a "suitably-badged" and properly-priced and -contented ZEE?!

Cache'...in SPADES!

Last edited by LOWDOWN; 01-04-2012 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:49 PM   #34
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Here is the Synergy Green test car with a different hood and holes for pins ... Think it may be a stretch saying the hood makes it a different model. But guess you never know.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134175

Looking closer at the camo'd hood, do I see what looks like the Hot Wheels hood??? YUMMY!!!
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:29 PM   #35
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The ZL1 was never supposed to be a big volume car. If 10% of Camaro sales are ZL1, I bet GM will be more than happy.

As for people not spending 60k on their Camaros ... there are plenty of people that have spent roughly $40k on a loaded 2SS, then another 15 or 20 grand on mods. It doesn't take long for mod money to add up.
Thats different then being financied for $60k...
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:31 PM   #36
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WOULDN'T[/I] GM offer a "suitably-badged" and properly-priced and -contented ZEE?!

Cache'...in SPADES!
Because GM is technically broke. Thye never fully paid back their bailout from the government and never resolved the issues they had in the first place. Couple that with a borderline depression and new government fuel standards (going up to 54.6 mpg by 2025) I dont see how they can.

Look keep on dreaming and always looking for the next best thing. It wasnt that long ago you guys were hoping for a ZL1. now you have it and for some reason it isnt good enough. And more than likely you wont be able to afford a Z28 anyway (if they happen to ever come out with one).... so why the discussion???

By the way, the ZL1 is about as much power as you are going to see out of a stock Camaro. I PROMISE you that insurance companies are not going to allow the HP wars to continue as it has gotten too dangerous. Most of the people who buy these cars cannot properly drive them so they are an accident waiting to happen.
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:32 PM   #37
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WOW!

Just...wow...

1) A Gen-5 Camaro has a "best before" date of MY '15...long before '25...

2) Banko...really?! Gee, we better run for the hills...

3) A Z/28, priced in the $40's, will be substantially less expen$ive than the ZL1...which, given "the times", makes even more sense (and cents) than the ZL1, whose raison d'etre is to compete with/conquer the GT 500, a car no one regularly enjoying this Section cares a tinker's damn about...

4) A 500 hp Z/28 carrying 200 fewer pounds will acquit itself very well, thank you, against the BOSS (in ANY form), the target for, and hopeful result of, these discussions that you so ignominiously (and fully unprepared) have chosen to try to squelch...nice try.

5) "We" are here because we are NOT fully engaged in the ZL1 program...not our car, not our style...

6) Again...WOW! But thanks for playing...don't forget your lovely parting gift on your way out.

Last edited by LOWDOWN; 01-04-2012 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:37 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by htp autoworks View Post
By the way, the ZL1 is about as much power as you are going to see out of a stock Camaro. I PROMISE you that insurance companies are not going to allow the HP wars to continue as it has gotten too dangerous. Most of the people who buy these cars cannot properly drive them so they are an accident waiting to happen.
Like the insurance companies are going to dictate what GM builds... If that were the case Corvettes would not be on the road... The only one to possibly stop the HP wars are the Govt or the auto makers themselves... but as long as there is a market I don't see that happening...
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:38 PM   #39
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By the way I wasnt directing my "cant afford it" post at anyone in particular. Just in general since most people wouldnt be able to afford it. It would have to be a significant improvement over the new GT500 to come out (again if GM could swing it) and that would bump the rpice up near 6 figures for that kind of performance. Not too many people can afford that kind of car in this economy. And if they could I dont see them buying a 6 figure Camaro.
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Old 01-04-2012, 04:42 PM   #40
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Like the insurance companies are going to dictate what GM builds... If that were the case Corvettes would not be on the road... The only one to possibly stop the HP wars are the Govt or the auto makers themselves... but as long as there is a market I don't see that happening...
Insurance companies can deny covering cars... and if they wont cover it who will drive it??? The government will direct what GM builds..... since they are part owner... and the government is bought and paid for by lobbyists... and some of them from the insurance industry. Anytime lawyers get involved things change. Like I said earlier, look at the 70's when the HP wars got killed off then. We have the same economic situation now... but more environmentalists in the government.

The simplest way to put it, the government has directed the fuel milage changes. Car companies can not continue to build 500-600hp cars and meet the standards. If they do it will take some new technology that isnt out there currently. And if they day I will be a very happy man. If I could get a 600hp car and also get 30mpg I would learn to do cartwheels.
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:20 PM   #41
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By the way I wasnt directing my "cant afford it" post at anyone in particular. Just in general since most people wouldnt be able to afford it. It would have to be a significant improvement over the new GT500 to come out (again if GM could swing it) and that would bump the rpice up near 6 figures for that kind of performance. Not too many people can afford that kind of car in this economy. And if they could I dont see them buying a 6 figure Camaro.
Please feel free to share your extensive knowledge of the GT 500, and what a "proper" Camaro competitor would be/cost, with our bruthas 'n sistas over here:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=85

I'm sure you'll receive a worthy welcoming...

Last edited by LOWDOWN; 01-04-2012 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 01-04-2012, 07:12 PM   #42
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Thats different then being financied for $60k...
Yes and no. If you can afford to pay $60k one way, you can afford to pay $60k the other way too. And if the difference between the two breaks you, chance are you can't actually afford either one.
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Because GM is technically broke. Thye never fully paid back their bailout from the government and never resolved the issues they had in the first place. Couple that with a borderline depression and new government fuel standards (going up to 54.6 mpg by 2025) I dont see how they can.

Look keep on dreaming and always looking for the next best thing. It wasnt that long ago you guys were hoping for a ZL1. now you have it and for some reason it isnt good enough. And more than likely you wont be able to afford a Z28 anyway (if they happen to ever come out with one).... so why the discussion???

By the way, the ZL1 is about as much power as you are going to see out of a stock Camaro. I PROMISE you that insurance companies are not going to allow the HP wars to continue as it has gotten too dangerous. Most of the people who buy these cars cannot properly drive them so they are an accident waiting to happen.
GM paid back all their loan obligations. And they aren't broke, unless you consider raking in billions in profit constitutes 'broke'. And corporate average fuel economy is an average, and its calculated in such a way that it reduces the effect of low volume vehicles, and in particular low volume vehicles that are less efficient. With GM selling some 2.5 million cars & trucks, a few thousand high performance cars will barely move the needle.

Most of us that want a Z28 never wanted a supercharged car. And its not because its not 'good enough', I think we can all agree that its going to be a great car. But its not the Camaro we want. The V6 is a great car, its just not the Camaro I want. The SS is a great car, its just not the Camaro I want. Would I be happy with either of them (or a ZL1)? I'm sure I would. But I'd be be happier with a Z28 along the lines of whats been discussed in this section.

Now, if you yourself don't want a Z28, or don't expect a Z28, or don't think that a Z28, or in any other way have no interest in positively contributing to the discussions in the Z28 section of this forum, I kindly ask you to find other areas of the site to participate in.
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