Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
autoguy
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > General Camaro Forums > Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics

Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-05-2012, 07:33 AM   #51
oldfriend


 
oldfriend's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 SS BLK IO interior
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: 32*38' 49N. 16*55'42W
Posts: 7,004
Quote:
Originally Posted by htp autoworks View Post
Trust me I would LOVE to see the Z28 come out but I think it is a little ridiculous to think that the head of GM is going to listen to you guys and go hey "they want a Z28 that will basically be a little higher performance than an SS yet cost less than the ZL1... so lets build it." It wont happen... and to sit her eand speculate that it will seems silly to me. Maybe if they got rid of the SS then yes I can see it. But like I posted earleir these cars are built on a robotic assembly line at the same plant. Do you expect them to build another line for a car that really wont be much different than the SS? maybe I am missing something here but I just dont see the logic in it. A Z28 should be their flagship Camaro... as it has... not a mid model car.

And by your justification (in the Z28/Viper) example, someone should get two V6 Camaros instead of a ZL1. A Viper is a track ready HAND BUILT street legal car that has set just about every track record out there. A ZL1 didnt fair so well at the Ring (in comparison) and is built by robots on an assembly line.
That's why it cost about half the $
__________________
2010 BLK 2SS RS IO
oldfriend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 09:32 AM   #52
LOWDOWN
Account Suspended
 
Drives: Daily
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Cruisin'...
Posts: 4,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by htp autoworks View Post
Trust me I would LOVE to see the Z28 come out but I think it is a little ridiculous to think that the head of GM is going to listen to you guys and go hey "they want a Z28 that will basically be a little higher performance than an SS yet cost less than the ZL1... so lets build it." It wont happen... and to sit here and speculate that it will seems silly to me. Maybe if they got rid of the SS then yes I can see it. But like I posted earlier these cars are built on a robotic assembly line at the same plant. Do you expect them to build another line for a car that really wont be much different than the SS? maybe I am missing something here but I just dont see the logic in it. A Z28 should be their flagship Camaro... as it has... not a mid model car.

And by your justification (in the Z28/Viper) example, someone should get two V6 Camaros instead of a ZL1. A Viper is a track ready HAND BUILT street legal car that has set just about every track record out there. A ZL1 didnt fair so well at the Ring (in comparison) and is built by robots on an assembly line.
Sooo many counterpoints, so little time...

If I may, I'll take a few moments from my otherwise fanciful dream of a proper ZEE and amuse you further...

Viper ACR setting a 7:12 time @ the 'Ring (and being that coveted piece because its hand-assembled): Good for them...with a Used Car running on R-compound tires, no longer manufactured because it was oh-so-awesome and oh-so-value-packed. I'm sure Fiat has great plans for this dormant nameplate...

ZL1 @ the 'Ring: 7:41...a perfect example of what a few extra horses, a wee diet (100 or so lb.), and better wheels/tires/suspension can do, relative to the 7:58 pulled off by the CTS-V. Don't forget these important points...

Banko: The proper way out of their financial quagmire was/is to build vehicles, at a profit, that people willingly (longingly??) wanna buy...without rebates...

Mass-produced: The more built and sold, the more profitable something will become. And you can produce more vehicles with higher quality in greater numbers with modern computerized robotic assistance. Hand-assembled works wonderfully when you're building handfulls, NOT 1,000s. Undeniable FACT.

Specialized vehicles are complex and expensive: Correct...when hand-assembled and built in tiny batches, relatively. Or when built on an assemblyline, a few at a time, interspersed with much higher volume units, if utilizing rare, custom-made pieces.

GM can't possibly build a profitable Z/28: Gee, time to close this whole section... Oh, wait a minute. Somewhere in this vast "resource" called the Camaro Z28 Forum - Z28 Specific Topics exists numerous posts contributing ideas, knowledge, GM-approved manufacturing techniques...and rationalization from decades of GM first-hand experience. At the Wholesale and Retail levels. In engineering. In manufacturing processes. In certification/validation. You know, the things Mopar didn't need to go through to send their one-off Used Car around the 'Ring @ 7:12...

If you don't have the time or inclination to go through ALL that "data", let me give you the Cliff's Notes version...and you can start with my signature, below...

There, you have just seen a buildable recipe for an Oshawa-produced ZEE...buildable in numbers I personally believe will DWARF the ZL1...just as it did in '69...just as it could in '13-'14-'15...

EVERY SINGLE PART LISTED is now sitting on a shelf in a GM facility. In fact, every item (save the engine and a ZEE-specific hood) is NOW sitting in Oshawa. Applied, as suggested, and batch-built (yeah, we've even discussed that), with a Retail Price as indicated, GM would be another step further from banko...and hopefully you agree that would be a good thing...GM being further from Chapter 11...and 1,000s of extra Camaros being SOLD-SOLD-SOLD!

Would a ZEE eat away at ZL1/SS sales? Quite likely. BUT, they'll migrate to another CAMARO, not a 'Stang or a Challenger...or a Used-up Fiat-owned buckboard.
LOWDOWN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 10:31 AM   #53
mlee
H-Town Camaro Club
 
mlee's Avatar
 
Drives: Number Twenty-Three
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Conroe, TX
Posts: 24,514
Quote:
Originally Posted by htp autoworks View Post
Insurance companies can deny covering cars... and if they wont cover it who will drive it???
Oh please... Everything has a price... and there are insurance companies for everything...
__________________
.
mlee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 11:24 AM   #54
Txmxracer
 
Txmxracer's Avatar
 
Drives: 69 Camaro Z/28
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 194
I will admit I didn't read through this thread completely, but I don't think you will see a Z/28 for a while. Just because they are testing a product, does not mean they have to bring it to production. If GM were to show the Z/28 at the Detroit Auto Show, that also does not guarentee it will see production. Honestly, I think you guys that believe the Z/28 is right around the corner are going to be disappointed because I don't believe it show up until the 6th generation. I really hope I am wrong though; I would love to see a Boss 302 fighter.
__________________
Txmxracer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 11:38 AM   #55
LOWDOWN
Account Suspended
 
Drives: Daily
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Cruisin'...
Posts: 4,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
ZL1 @ the 'Ring: 7:41...a perfect example of what a few extra horses, a wee diet (100 or so lb.), and better wheels/tires/suspension can do, relative to the 7:58 pulled off by the CTS-V. Don't forget these important points...
Sorry, I meant to elaborate on this comment...

A ZEE, relative to a ZL1, is what the Z06 is to a ZR1...which is exactly 3 seconds @ the 'Ring...7:22 vs. 7:19.

Now, taking about 200 lbs. off the wheels of a ZL1 can only have a positive effect on performance. Giving up 75 hp hurts...but the Vettes are 130-some horses apart...and 154 lbs. apart...and only 3 seconds difference. The Camaros, potentially, could/should be closer...

The ZEE recipe marries a de-contented ZL1 (weight-savings) with an LS7 (further weight-savings) to create a more rev-able, more nimble, lower-priced, insurance-friendlier (your point) and therefore more voluminous Camaro which, unless you're a GM hater, is only a PLUS!
LOWDOWN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 04:21 PM   #56
Blizzard
Searching for the truth
 
Blizzard's Avatar
 
Drives: 85 K-10
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Starkville, Mississippi
Posts: 592
Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
Sorry, I meant to elaborate on this comment...

A ZEE, relative to a ZL1, is what the Z06 is to a ZR1...which is exactly 3 seconds @ the 'Ring...7:22 vs. 7:19.

Now, taking about 200 lbs. off the wheels of a ZL1 can only have a positive effect on performance. Giving up 75 hp hurts...but the Vettes are 130-some horses apart...and 154 lbs. apart...and only 3 seconds difference. The Camaros, potentially, could/should be closer...

The ZEE recipe marries a de-contented ZL1 (weight-savings) with an LS7 (further weight-savings) to create a more rev-able, more nimble, lower-priced, insurance-friendlier (your point) and therefore more voluminous Camaro which, unless you're a GM hater, is only a PLUS!
I agree with your 12 step program, accept for on part. MRC, i don't think the Z28 should have it. MRC is not track legal an d the Z28 should be able to pull up to a event from the show room floor and race.
__________________
2013 1LE 1SS RS TPW 4/29
Blizzard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 06:47 PM   #57
htron50


 
htron50's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 ZL1
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SC
Posts: 2,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post

EVERY SINGLE PART LISTED is now sitting on a shelf in a GM facility. In fact, every item (save the engine and a ZEE-specific hood) is NOW sitting in Oshawa. Applied, as suggested, and batch-built (yeah, we've even discussed that), with a Retail Price as indicated, GM would be another step further from banko...and hopefully you agree that would be a good thing...GM being further from Chapter 11...and 1,000s of extra Camaros being SOLD-SOLD-SOLD!

Would a ZEE eat away at ZL1/SS sales? Quite likely. BUT, they'll migrate to another CAMARO, not a 'Stang or a Challenger...or a Used-up Fiat-owned buckboard.

WOW! LOWDOWN. Exquisite articulation. I'm speechless... Don't know you, but you "got the gift"....... nice read. Thanks
__________________
2012 CAMARO-ZL1
Sincere Thanks to City Chevrolet, Charlotte, NC http://www.citychevrolet.com/blog/ca...et-camaro-zl1/
htron50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 07:06 PM   #58
OldScoolCamaro


 
Drives: Camaro's, always have, always will.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home of the brave
Posts: 4,858
Quote:
Originally Posted by htron50 View Post
WOW! LOWDOWN. Exquisite articulation. I'm speechless... Don't know you, but you "got the gift"....... nice read. Thanks
Agreed....and to Lowdowns Who reference ;"The Who sang it best: ZEE me, Feel me, Touch me, Heal me!"...and I ad another one if I may.."The Real Me" ...I went to my mother, I zaid I'm crazy, ma, help me....she zaid I know how it feelz son, 'cuz it runz in the family....can you Zee the real me mother, mother...can you see Zee the real me, can ya, can ya....<my alltime favorite group> Very much indeed do I look forward to blast Quadraphenia, Tommy, Who's Next etc... in my new Z.
__________________
In Scott We Trust...all others must show proof.
OldScoolCamaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 07:24 PM   #59
Gramps69Z
Still waiting on the Z
 
Gramps69Z's Avatar
 
Drives: 69 Z/28, 06 Denali, 09 CTS
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Destin FL
Posts: 1,652
Send a message via AIM to Gramps69Z Send a message via Yahoo to Gramps69Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by htron50 View Post
WOW! LOWDOWN. Exquisite articulation. I'm speechless... Don't know you, but you "got the gift"....... nice read. Thanks
__________________
1 year, 5 months to go!
1969 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28
2006 Denali
2009 Cadillac CTS


The Six Old Guys
Quote:
Originally Posted by fbodfather View Post
The last thing we want is to ship something that isn't right.
Gramps69Z is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 07:28 PM   #60
htron50


 
htron50's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 ZL1
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: SC
Posts: 2,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldScoolCamaro View Post
Agreed....and to Lowdowns Who reference ;"The Who sang it best: ZEE me, Feel me, Touch me, Heal me!"...and I ad another one if I may.."The Real Me" ...I went to my mother, I zaid I'm crazy, ma, help me....she zaid I know how it feelz son, 'cuz it runz in the family....can you Zee the real me mother, mother...can you see Zee the real me, can ya, can ya....<my alltime favorite group> Very much indeed do I look forward to blast Quadraphenia, Tommy, Who's Next etc... in my new Z.
The WHO is great! I went to a concert of theirs about 10 yrs ago. They were old n gray... but still doing a great job. I love to listen to their UNCUT versions the best! I imagine sometime when we all get together for a drink, its gonna be a bunch of ol gray hair dudes at a table talking OldScool and "Yesterday"
But, they were great times and if we can keep them alive.... "Hell Yeah!"
__________________
2012 CAMARO-ZL1
Sincere Thanks to City Chevrolet, Charlotte, NC http://www.citychevrolet.com/blog/ca...et-camaro-zl1/
htron50 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 07:53 PM   #61
LOWDOWN
Account Suspended
 
Drives: Daily
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Cruisin'...
Posts: 4,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blizzard View Post
I agree with your 12 step program, accept for on part. MRC, i don't think the Z28 should have it. MRC is not track legal an d the Z28 should be able to pull up to a event from the show room floor and race.
Bliz I would agree 100%...except...the 1LE @ SEMA was MRC-equipped which, in my feeble mind, indicates a genuine Camaro Team "enthusiasm" for the technology. As well, the MRC (with perhaps slight tweaking for lower and differently distributed weight) exists, while my personally preferred "massaged FE4" doesn't. Anything not currently existing/certified/validated would add development time and expense, especially a "new" lowered suspension that would dictate fresh crash-testing and durability trials. And we don't want GM goin' banco again 'cuz of US!

As well, MRC spread over two programs (if not three: ZL1, Z/28 and perhaps 1LE based on an LS3-engined SS) aids unit cost and, therefore, pricing and profitability. A "unique-to-ZEE" suspension might end up costing essentially the SAME as an MRC-equipped car. And the vast majority of Z/28s will likely never actively enjoy the Streets of Willow...most WILL enjoy the streets of Detroit et al, frost heaves 'n all...

For those who WILL run in a sanctioned Series forbidding MRC, I absolutely expect GMPP to have the requisite homologated mechanical suspension (with a Pedders sticker on it, somewhere...) readily available from Hometown Chevy. In fact, it may already have a Part #...

Moving forward (i.e. Gen-6 Camaro), I foresee wider use of electronic suspension systems as vehicles decrease in size (by necessity) but consumers are not willing to accept "crapcan" ride 'n handling...

Again, conjecture...combined with a smidgeon of wishful thinking...but it IS my $.02...

Addendum:
As to the "gray hair" comment/guess, I'll confirm that to be true...what little there IS...

.
LOWDOWN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 08:07 PM   #62
htp autoworks
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2007 Jeep SRT-8
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: DFW
Posts: 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
Sooo many counterpoints, so little time...

If I may, I'll take a few moments from my otherwise fanciful dream of a proper ZEE and amuse you further...

Viper ACR setting a 7:12 time @ the 'Ring (and being that coveted piece because its hand-assembled): Good for them...with a Used Car running on R-compound tires, no longer manufactured because it was oh-so-awesome and oh-so-value-packed. I'm sure Fiat has great plans for this dormant nameplate...

ZL1 @ the 'Ring: 7:41...a perfect example of what a few extra horses, a wee diet (100 or so lb.), and better wheels/tires/suspension can do, relative to the 7:58 pulled off by the CTS-V. Don't forget these important points...

Banko: The proper way out of their financial quagmire was/is to build vehicles, at a profit, that people willingly (longingly??) wanna buy...without rebates...

Mass-produced: The more built and sold, the more profitable something will become. And you can produce more vehicles with higher quality in greater numbers with modern computerized robotic assistance. Hand-assembled works wonderfully when you're building handfulls, NOT 1,000s. Undeniable FACT.

Specialized vehicles are complex and expensive: Correct...when hand-assembled and built in tiny batches, relatively. Or when built on an assemblyline, a few at a time, interspersed with much higher volume units, if utilizing rare, custom-made pieces.

GM can't possibly build a profitable Z/28: Gee, time to close this whole section... Oh, wait a minute. Somewhere in this vast "resource" called the Camaro Z28 Forum - Z28 Specific Topics exists numerous posts contributing ideas, knowledge, GM-approved manufacturing techniques...and rationalization from decades of GM first-hand experience. At the Wholesale and Retail levels. In engineering. In manufacturing processes. In certification/validation. You know, the things Mopar didn't need to go through to send their one-off Used Car around the 'Ring @ 7:12...

If you don't have the time or inclination to go through ALL that "data", let me give you the Cliff's Notes version...and you can start with my signature, below...

There, you have just seen a buildable recipe for an Oshawa-produced ZEE...buildable in numbers I personally believe will DWARF the ZL1...just as it did in '69...just as it could in '13-'14-'15...

EVERY SINGLE PART LISTED is now sitting on a shelf in a GM facility. In fact, every item (save the engine and a ZEE-specific hood) is NOW sitting in Oshawa. Applied, as suggested, and batch-built (yeah, we've even discussed that), with a Retail Price as indicated, GM would be another step further from banko...and hopefully you agree that would be a good thing...GM being further from Chapter 11...and 1,000s of extra Camaros being SOLD-SOLD-SOLD!

Would a ZEE eat away at ZL1/SS sales? Quite likely. BUT, they'll migrate to another CAMARO, not a 'Stang or a Challenger...or a Used-up Fiat-owned buckboard.
"Used up Fiat owned bucketboard"... LMAO! Ok fanboy, I guess they will always hold the record... until the next Viper comes out... in say 2013. I wont waste any more of your "dreamland" time. I guess we will see when and if the Z28 comes out. My bet is no. Better economy and a government (that still owns 36 % of GM) that wasnt killing the car industry, then maybe. But sorry, it isnt going to happen.

By the way the Viper that broke the record was a new ACR withh stock tires... straight off the shoroom floor. The hardcore ACR that ran the 7:03 was also stock and off the showroom floor. 7:12 to 7:41 is a LIFETIME at the Ring... so much so that you cant possibly make a ridiculous statement (like you did) without loosing credibility.
htp autoworks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 08:14 PM   #63
wildpaws

 
wildpaws's Avatar
 
Drives: 1999 Blazer
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 1,214
Quote:
Originally Posted by htp autoworks View Post
Trust me I would LOVE to see the Z28 come out but I think it is a little ridiculous to think that the head of GM is going to listen to you guys and go hey "they want a Z28 that will basically be a little higher performance than an SS yet cost less than the ZL1... so lets build it." It wont happen... and to sit her eand speculate that it will seems silly to me. Maybe if they got rid of the SS then yes I can see it. But like I posted earleir these cars are built on a robotic assembly line at the same plant. Do you expect them to build another line for a car that really wont be much different than the SS? maybe I am missing something here but I just dont see the logic in it. A Z28 should be their flagship Camaro... as it has... not a mid model car.

And by your justification (in the Z28/Viper) example, someone should get two V6 Camaros instead of a ZL1. A Viper is a track ready HAND BUILT street legal car that has set just about every track record out there. A ZL1 didnt fair so well at the Ring (in comparison) and is built by robots on an assembly line.
Again, your point is?? To even begin to compare a Viper and a Camaro is the epitomy of absurd. And GM would not have to build "another assembly line" to produce a Camaro Z/28 just as there are not different lines for the ZL1 Camaro. Perhaps you need to read up a little on modern day assembly line techniques, they have changed a little from Model T days. And I'm sure we don't need your knowledge and permission to speak about what we want and what and where a Z/28 should be in the Camaro lineup. I for one welcome people coming to the Z/28 forum that want to carry on an intelligent discussion, unfortunately many people pop in here simply to "stir the pot" and see how many arguments they can create. You can figure out for yourself where you fall within that criteria.

Clyde
wildpaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 08:29 PM   #64
OldScoolCamaro


 
Drives: Camaro's, always have, always will.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home of the brave
Posts: 4,858
Quote:
Originally Posted by htron50 View Post
The WHO is great! I went to a concert of theirs about 10 yrs ago. They were old n gray... but still doing a great job. I love to listen to their UNCUT versions the best! I imagine sometime when we all get together for a drink, its gonna be a bunch of ol gray hair dudes at a table talking OldScool and "Yesterday"
But, they were great times and if we can keep them alive.... "Hell Yeah!"
Saw them three times back in '78 or '79, Passaic, Philly, and NYC, the best all time concert that anyone could ever possibly experience was when I saw The Who about 4 months after Keith Moon died. It was at the Capital Theater in Passaic NJ. About 2,500 seats, a theater with a stage, the music was as loud and cystal clear beyond imagination. I couldn't hear for three days after. Note: I got the tickets because WYSP, a local Philly FM station had a win tickets offer. Send in post cards to win free tickets. I bought 100 post cards<10.00 back then> and mailed them. Low and behold I won 2 pair of tickets. Had to stand in line outside the theater to pick them up in advance, well worth. The music at that show was as perfectly loud and clear as a new LP on earphones. The crowd was dumfounded and sat quiet after the tunes were played. Daltry turned and looked at Townsend after the songs ended in a confused look why we are silent, as if something was wrong. Awestruck was the crowds response. Trancelike. Sheer perfection. I will never, ever, forget that performance.I attended lots of concerts, but nothing EVER like that.
__________________
In Scott We Trust...all others must show proof.
OldScoolCamaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 08:52 PM   #65
LOWDOWN
Account Suspended
 
Drives: Daily
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Cruisin'...
Posts: 4,162
Quote:
Originally Posted by htp autoworks View Post
"Used up Fiat owned bucketboard"... LMAO! Ok fanboy, I guess they will always hold the record... until the next Viper comes out... in say 2013. I wont waste any more of your "dreamland" time. I guess we will see when and if the Z28 comes out. My bet is no. Better economy and a government (that still owns 36 % of GM) that wasnt killing the car industry, then maybe. But sorry, it isnt going to happen.

By the way the Viper that broke the record was a new ACR withh stock tires... straight off the shoroom floor. The hardcore ACR that ran the 7:03 was also stock and off the showroom floor. 7:12 to 7:41 is a LIFETIME at the Ring... so much so that you cant possibly make a ridiculous statement (like you did) without loosing credibility.
If your first name is Richard, would you mind if I called you DICK?!

Buckboard...as in what a Viper rides like. Ever ridden in a Viper? Ever DRIVEN a Viper? Ever SEEN an ACR? What tires come on them? R-compounds. Good for a second or two a lap at any track...and a few more seconds at the 'Ring...

As for comparing (or expecting) a ZEE to a 2008 Viper ACR, not in this dreamland, DICK. YOU, DICK, are the one draggin' a Used Viper into this conversation...like it's relevant...so I tried (futilely, to you, of course...) to bring some relevancy to your 'Ring-around-a-racetrack banter. Real relevancy would be for Mother Mopar to bring a production-built Challenger to the 'Ring...and do what its name sez: Challenge! Instead of spectate...

Tell ya what, DICK, bring your Fiat ACR to the 'Ring, allow GM to do similar mods to their ZR1, and we'll have a lil "run what ya brung, southern-style". Keep your Tag-Heuer timepiece handy...this won't take long...
LOWDOWN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 09:06 PM   #66
htp autoworks
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2007 Jeep SRT-8
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: DFW
Posts: 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildpaws View Post
Again, your point is?? To even begin to compare a Viper and a Camaro is the epitomy of absurd. And GM would not have to build "another assembly line" to produce a Camaro Z/28 just as there are not different lines for the ZL1 Camaro. Perhaps you need to read up a little on modern day assembly line techniques, they have changed a little from Model T days. And I'm sure we don't need your knowledge and permission to speak about what we want and what and where a Z/28 should be in the Camaro lineup. I for one welcome people coming to the Z/28 forum that want to carry on an intelligent discussion, unfortunately many people pop in here simply to "stir the pot" and see how many arguments they can create. You can figure out for yourself where you fall within that criteria.

Clyde
Again, could care less. I stated earlier that I WISH THEY WOULD MAKE THE Z28. Sounds pretty clear to me. I just see the Z28 as being a "flagship" Camaro... which is where I believe our opinions differ. TO ME it doesnt make sense to develop another Camaro that wont at least match the performance of the ZL-1... would be a pretty big let down in the automotive world when everyone is trying to "one up" the competition. I guess I could see it as a "Boss" equivalant (a better performance Mustang than the GT but not the GT500) but I still beleive the Z28 should be the King of the Camaros.

I also didnt start the comparison between the Viper and Camaro... I just made a point that you cant call a Viper a rustbucket while using Ring times as a standard. What would that make the Camaro??? Yes its not a fair comparion of the two cars but neither is talking it down when you have never sat in one much less owned one. I woned an 2004 Viper and it was one of the most inspiring cars I have ever driven... and hada much better build quality than the Camaro... but I would still never call either one of them garbage... or worn out.

Oh and on a side note to Lowdown, you might want to see what Fiat has done with Chrysler. I rode in a new SRT-8 Jeep the other day and the build quality was phenominal. The interior was better than what I have seen in the BMW X5 and the power was impressive. Sure I am not happy that Fiat owns and American automanufacturer but our government didnt give Chrysler much choice. Andseeing how Chrysler sales were up 26% last year compared to GMs 13 % I guess they have figured something out. Hopefully GM and Ford will follow because I think overall American cars are lacking a little in quality.
htp autoworks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 09:11 PM   #67
2cnd chance
It Will Be Mine
 
2cnd chance's Avatar
 
Drives: A Z06 or a 2015 1LE?
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Road
Posts: 6,215
My friendZ,
Please notice I've stayed out of this conversation today. There is no rhyme or reason as to what is being spewed forth by some (we know who it is). I admonish all to move on as I have. Please let's get back to our regularly scheduled programZ.

Sincerely From your,
Zbrother
2cnd chance is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 09:12 PM   #68
htp autoworks
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2007 Jeep SRT-8
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: DFW
Posts: 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
If your first name is Richard, would you mind if I called you DICK?!

Buckboard...as in what a Viper rides like. Ever ridden in a Viper? Ever DRIVEN a Viper? Ever SEEN an ACR? What tires come on them? R-compounds. Good for a second or two a lap at any track...and a few more seconds at the 'Ring...

As for comparing (or expecting) a ZEE to a 2008 Viper ACR, not in this dreamland, DICK. YOU, DICK, are the one draggin' a Used Viper into this conversation...like it's relevant...so I tried (futilely, to you, of course...) to bring some relevancy to your 'Ring-around-a-racetrack banter. Real relevancy would be for Mother Mopar to bring a production-built Challenger to the 'Ring...and do what its name sez: Challenge! Instead of spectate...

Tell ya what, DICK, bring your Fiat ACR to the 'Ring, allow GM to do similar mods to their ZR1, and we'll have a lil "run what ya brung, southern-style". Keep your Tag-Heuer timepiece handy...this won't take long...
DICK? LOL, another big talker through the keyboard. Love it. And yes I have owned a Camaro, a Mustang GT ANDDDDDDDDD a Viper... to name a few. I get bored with cars very quickly and the Viper is the only one I didnt get bored with. Maybe you need a CTS-V if a Viper is too much for you. Ever ridden in a true track car? They all ride stiff.

And by the way, GM brough their ZR1 to the Ring and guess what... it couldnt beat the Lexus. They had plenty of time to set it up and made plenty of runs. The Viper was off the showroom floor and was FACTORY... and is NA. So get a clue before you keep making yourself look bad. DICK. And how did the challenger come into this? I wouldnt own one of those if it was given to me... or another Mustang.

I will allow you to live in peace in since you get so spun up. I see you cant handle conversation with anyone that has a differing opinion... without becoming an internet badass. Nice avatar by the way, is it yours???

Last edited by htp autoworks; 01-05-2012 at 09:25 PM.
htp autoworks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 09:24 PM   #69
wildpaws

 
wildpaws's Avatar
 
Drives: 1999 Blazer
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 1,214
Quote:
Originally Posted by htp autoworks View Post
Again, could care less. I stated earlier that I WISH THEY WOULD MAKE THE Z28. Sounds pretty clear to me. I just see the Z28 as being a "flagship" Camaro... which is where I believe our opinions differ. TO ME it doesnt make sense to develop another Camaro that wont at least match the performance of the ZL-1... would be a pretty big let down in the automotive world when everyone is trying to "one up" the competition. I guess I could see it as a "Boss" equivalant (a better performance Mustang than the GT but not the GT500) but I still beleive the Z28 should be the King of the Camaros.

I also didnt start the comparison between the Viper and Camaro... I just made a point that you cant call a Viper a rustbucket while using Ring times as a standard. What would that make the Camaro??? Yes its not a fair comparion of the two cars but neither is talking it down when you have never sat in one much less owned one. I woned an 2004 Viper and it was one of the most inspiring cars I have ever driven... and hada much better build quality than the Camaro... but I would still never call either one of them garbage... or worn out.

Oh and on a side note to Lowdown, you might want to see what Fiat has done with Chrysler. I rode in a new SRT-8 Jeep the other day and the build quality was phenominal. The interior was better than what I have seen in the BMW X5 and the power was impressive. Sure I am not happy that Fiat owns and American automanufacturer but our government didnt give Chrysler much choice. Andseeing how Chrysler sales were up 26% last year compared to GMs 13 % I guess they have figured something out. Hopefully GM and Ford will follow because I think overall American cars are lacking a little in quality.
Again, you obviously have not read all the threads in the Z/28 forum or all the posts in this thread, if you had you would understand where we are coming from and what performance levels we are looking for. The government didn't give Chryler a chance......last time I checked it was Daimler Benz that owned them and wanted to sell them and they ended up being bought by Fiat. You have to forgive us "fanboys" over here in the Z/28 thread, we don't know nuthin bout nuthin and have absolutely no idea of the difference between fantasy and reality, that's just the way we are!!

Clyde

Last edited by wildpaws; 01-05-2012 at 09:48 PM. Reason: text correction
wildpaws is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 09:24 PM   #70
DevilsReject97
Shadowboxin
 
DevilsReject97's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 1SS 6MT GHS
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Greenwood, Indiana
Posts: 907
Quote:
Originally Posted by htp autoworks View Post
The simplest way to put it, the government has directed the fuel milage changes. Car companies can not continue to build 500-600hp cars and meet the standards. If they do it will take some new technology that isnt out there currently. And if they day I will be a very happy man. If I could get a 600hp car and also get 30mpg I would learn to do cartwheels.
As long as the MPG is averaged across the whole company instead of the individual vehicle, this will never be an issue. MPGs for most vehicles made in the USA are at an all time high, with newer, better, more efficient vehicles...

Think about it, in 2002 a 345hp Camaro got crappier mileage than my 500lb heavier, 70hp more Camaro.....Also, the Z06 Corvette was the first and only 500+hp car to not be tagged with the gas guzzler tax.

It CAN happen.... and quite honestly, it's not that big of a stretch to do it....

There are cars on the market right now with proper tuning are getting 3-5mpg better than what they are rated for...easily..
__________________


DevilsReject97 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 09:29 PM   #71
DevilsReject97
Shadowboxin
 
DevilsReject97's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 1SS 6MT GHS
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Greenwood, Indiana
Posts: 907
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildpaws View Post
And your point would be?? We are discussing a reasonable (in price) performance option that can be sold to a fair number of people. A 1,000 units a year of a Dodge Viper is a drop in the bucket, a whole lot more people would be interested in a good performing Z/28 @ 45k-48k than would be interested in a Viper @ 85k-90k (let's see now, do I want one Viper that is pretty rad or do I want two Z/28s for the same price....I'll take two thank you). I would expect to see sales for a Z/28 in the price range I mentioned at 5k plus units a year.
Clyde
Actually, I was merely just pointing out that if people want it, it will sell. There's a big enough following that they would sell the Z28, regardless if it was a model upgrade or a stand alone model ala the Boss Mustang.

However, the price is irrelevant when the demand is there...
__________________


DevilsReject97 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 09:47 PM   #72
2SSRS@Gen5diy
Salt & Pepper 2014 Z/28

 
2SSRS@Gen5diy's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 2SS IOM ,2014 Z/28, 66 Nova
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: By the lake in AZ
Posts: 11,718
Have faith, There will be a Gen5 Z28 how do i know? I have bean saving my cash to get one, and it will be out soon.
__________________
2SSRS@Gen5diy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 09:51 PM   #73
DevilsReject97
Shadowboxin
 
DevilsReject97's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 1SS 6MT GHS
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Greenwood, Indiana
Posts: 907
Quote:
Originally Posted by htp autoworks View Post
By the way the Viper that broke the record was a new ACR withh stock tires... straight off the shoroom floor. The hardcore ACR that ran the 7:03 was also stock and off the showroom floor. 7:12 to 7:41 is a LIFETIME at the Ring... so much so that you cant possibly make a ridiculous statement (like you did) without loosing credibility.
The ACR Viper that was used to break the ZR1's record was a not in production model, as the Viper was discontinued in 2010. Also, the ACR is essentially a stripped down car while the ZR1 used was exactly how it came off the assembly line. Stereo, cruise control, etc etc etc...

Also, the ACR borrowed the same model tire that the ZR1 ran it's top lap on which were NOT available for the 2010 ACR when it was produced.

Lastly, the ACR-X is a fully track built car, such as the Cobra Jet and is not street legal nor is it "factory" anything...and it ran the track wearing slicks, not street tires...

As for the 7:41 to 7:12 comment, 30 seconds slower over a 11 mile course in a car that weighs almost 800lbs more isn't all that impressive honestly. Especially given that one is essentially a street legal, hand built supercar and the other is a muscle car.
__________________


DevilsReject97 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 09:54 PM   #74
htp autoworks
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2007 Jeep SRT-8
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: DFW
Posts: 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilsReject97 View Post
As long as the MPG is averaged across the whole company instead of the individual vehicle, this will never be an issue. MPGs for most vehicles made in the USA are at an all time high, with newer, better, more efficient vehicles...

Think about it, in 2002 a 345hp Camaro got crappier mileage than my 500lb heavier, 70hp more Camaro.....Also, the Z06 Corvette was the first and only 500+hp car to not be tagged with the gas guzzler tax.

It CAN happen.... and quite honestly, it's not that big of a stretch to do it....

There are cars on the market right now with proper tuning are getting 3-5mpg better than what they are rated for...easily..
Hey I hope your right. There is nothing more that I would love to have than a 500+ hp vehicle that gets 45 mpg. If they can pull it off in a Z28 you can bet I will be one ofthr first in line. But remember that the fleet wide mpg rating is 54... thats pretty damn high. In fact the Prius doesnt get that now and GM only makes a few high MPG vehicles... yet none of them are close. Adn th Volt... well they arent selling too well... and not sure how they even fall into the equation. One thing is for sure, all of the vehicle manufacturers have stated it will cost them 10's of billions of dollars to develope that technology and to meet that standard. The cost WILL be passed down to us, the consumer, making even fuel efficient vehicles dramatically increase in cost. Think about what it will do to sports cars.
htp autoworks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2012, 10:12 PM   #75
htp autoworks
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2007 Jeep SRT-8
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: DFW
Posts: 507
Quote:
Originally Posted by DevilsReject97 View Post
The ACR Viper that was used to break the ZR1's record was a not in production model, as the Viper was discontinued in 2010. Also, the ACR is essentially a stripped down car while the ZR1 used was exactly how it came off the assembly line. Stereo, cruise control, etc etc etc...

Wow, a "not in production model". Really? So because the car had just been discontinued for a model change you are discounting what it did at the Ring??? That is L A M E. The two Vipers taken over there were STRAIGHT OFF THE SHOWROOM FLOOR AS BUILT FROM THE PLANT WITHOUT ANY UPGRADES OR MODIFICATIONS.

Also, the ACR borrowed the same model tire that the ZR1 ran it's top lap on which were NOT available for the 2010 ACR when it was produced.

Again wrong. It was the EXACT factory tire the 2010 Viper rolled off the assembly line with.

Lastly, the ACR-X is a fully track built car, such as the Cobra Jet and is not street legal nor is it "factory" anything...and it ran the track wearing slicks, not street tires...

Again wrong. It is a actory built car... it rolled off the assembly line as is. Nothing was added, taken off of, or modified from the plant. That is how they are built. Street legal, no. Factory, yes!

As for the 7:41 to 7:12 comment, 30 seconds slower over a 11 mile course in a car that weighs almost 800lbs more isn't all that impressive honestly. Especially given that one is essentially a street legal, hand built supercar and the other is a muscle car.
30 seconds is FOREVER on any track. And the Viper isnt a supercar. I would call the LFA or a Salleen a supercar. Surely not a car priced at 100k.


I think this was put best after the haters started coming out...


"Are you really a writer for an automobile publication? When the ZR-1, then the GT-2, then the LFA hit their times, they were considered the fastest "production" cars around the Ring. Now that the Viper has beat the LFA, people start throwing out names of cars that could hardly be considered "production" cars. Are there faster cars around the Ring than the Viper? Heck yes. I (and most rational people) just don't consider them "production" cars.
As for the ACR that just ran 7:12, it was straight off a dealer's showroom floor!
Tires? Pilot Sport Cups. The same DOT tires that come STOCK on EVERY ACR.
Modified 5th gear? This was a STOCK change made on EVERY 2010 ACR.
Adjustable aerodynamics? The same STOCK ones on EVERY ACR.
... Official Timer? This can be vague, but most everyone (exepct Porsche) uses the same start/stop points. Video also shows this.
One thing you didn't mention is that the car was set up by a race team close to the Ring. Does this count against it? No. The suspension was set up by them, but that suspension is the STOCK, ADJUSTABLE suspension on EVERY ACR."

Very factual to say the least. Anway, enough of this. I didnt want to get back onto this topic but false info is false info. Bottom line is everyone should thank GM/Chrysler for getting into the hp wars (and Ford with the GT for 2 years). That is why we have some many great 500+ hp cars to choose from and potentially including the Z28. I just hope it can keep going and the economy turns around so we can start seeing more of these cars on the streets. I wont get to own many of them but I sure like looking at them... and hopefully driving a few of them.
htp autoworks is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Tags
z/28 announced this fall

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transcript of Camaro ZL1 Q&A Webchat with Chevrolet Tran Camaro ZL1 Forum - ZL1 Specific Topics 38 02-17-2012 12:45 AM
Little ZL1 GoldenBear Camaro ZL1 Forum - ZL1 Specific Topics 19 09-27-2011 08:38 PM
ZL1 vs Corvette- Why do people insist this doesnt exist? Impacts on pricing/perf? Arachnyd Camaro ZL1 Forum - ZL1 Specific Topics 60 09-19-2011 04:13 PM
Z28 vs ZL1 vs Pace Car... TaylorSF 5th Gen Camaro SS LS LT General Discussions 2 07-05-2011 11:21 PM
Z28 and the 5th Gen Refresh. thePill Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics 250 05-25-2011 06:57 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.