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Old 01-05-2012, 10:24 PM   #69
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Again, could care less. I stated earlier that I WISH THEY WOULD MAKE THE Z28. Sounds pretty clear to me. I just see the Z28 as being a "flagship" Camaro... which is where I believe our opinions differ. TO ME it doesnt make sense to develop another Camaro that wont at least match the performance of the ZL-1... would be a pretty big let down in the automotive world when everyone is trying to "one up" the competition. I guess I could see it as a "Boss" equivalant (a better performance Mustang than the GT but not the GT500) but I still beleive the Z28 should be the King of the Camaros.

I also didnt start the comparison between the Viper and Camaro... I just made a point that you cant call a Viper a rustbucket while using Ring times as a standard. What would that make the Camaro??? Yes its not a fair comparion of the two cars but neither is talking it down when you have never sat in one much less owned one. I woned an 2004 Viper and it was one of the most inspiring cars I have ever driven... and hada much better build quality than the Camaro... but I would still never call either one of them garbage... or worn out.

Oh and on a side note to Lowdown, you might want to see what Fiat has done with Chrysler. I rode in a new SRT-8 Jeep the other day and the build quality was phenominal. The interior was better than what I have seen in the BMW X5 and the power was impressive. Sure I am not happy that Fiat owns and American automanufacturer but our government didnt give Chrysler much choice. Andseeing how Chrysler sales were up 26% last year compared to GMs 13 % I guess they have figured something out. Hopefully GM and Ford will follow because I think overall American cars are lacking a little in quality.
Again, you obviously have not read all the threads in the Z/28 forum or all the posts in this thread, if you had you would understand where we are coming from and what performance levels we are looking for. The government didn't give Chryler a chance......last time I checked it was Daimler Benz that owned them and wanted to sell them and they ended up being bought by Fiat. You have to forgive us "fanboys" over here in the Z/28 thread, we don't know nuthin bout nuthin and have absolutely no idea of the difference between fantasy and reality, that's just the way we are!!

Clyde

Last edited by wildpaws; 01-05-2012 at 10:48 PM. Reason: text correction
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:24 PM   #70
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The simplest way to put it, the government has directed the fuel milage changes. Car companies can not continue to build 500-600hp cars and meet the standards. If they do it will take some new technology that isnt out there currently. And if they day I will be a very happy man. If I could get a 600hp car and also get 30mpg I would learn to do cartwheels.
As long as the MPG is averaged across the whole company instead of the individual vehicle, this will never be an issue. MPGs for most vehicles made in the USA are at an all time high, with newer, better, more efficient vehicles...

Think about it, in 2002 a 345hp Camaro got crappier mileage than my 500lb heavier, 70hp more Camaro.....Also, the Z06 Corvette was the first and only 500+hp car to not be tagged with the gas guzzler tax.

It CAN happen.... and quite honestly, it's not that big of a stretch to do it....

There are cars on the market right now with proper tuning are getting 3-5mpg better than what they are rated for...easily..
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:29 PM   #71
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And your point would be?? We are discussing a reasonable (in price) performance option that can be sold to a fair number of people. A 1,000 units a year of a Dodge Viper is a drop in the bucket, a whole lot more people would be interested in a good performing Z/28 @ 45k-48k than would be interested in a Viper @ 85k-90k (let's see now, do I want one Viper that is pretty rad or do I want two Z/28s for the same price....I'll take two thank you). I would expect to see sales for a Z/28 in the price range I mentioned at 5k plus units a year.
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Actually, I was merely just pointing out that if people want it, it will sell. There's a big enough following that they would sell the Z28, regardless if it was a model upgrade or a stand alone model ala the Boss Mustang.

However, the price is irrelevant when the demand is there...
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:47 PM   #72
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Have faith, There will be a Gen5 Z28 how do i know? I have bean saving my cash to get one, and it will be out soon.
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:51 PM   #73
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By the way the Viper that broke the record was a new ACR withh stock tires... straight off the shoroom floor. The hardcore ACR that ran the 7:03 was also stock and off the showroom floor. 7:12 to 7:41 is a LIFETIME at the Ring... so much so that you cant possibly make a ridiculous statement (like you did) without loosing credibility.
The ACR Viper that was used to break the ZR1's record was a not in production model, as the Viper was discontinued in 2010. Also, the ACR is essentially a stripped down car while the ZR1 used was exactly how it came off the assembly line. Stereo, cruise control, etc etc etc...

Also, the ACR borrowed the same model tire that the ZR1 ran it's top lap on which were NOT available for the 2010 ACR when it was produced.

Lastly, the ACR-X is a fully track built car, such as the Cobra Jet and is not street legal nor is it "factory" anything...and it ran the track wearing slicks, not street tires...

As for the 7:41 to 7:12 comment, 30 seconds slower over a 11 mile course in a car that weighs almost 800lbs more isn't all that impressive honestly. Especially given that one is essentially a street legal, hand built supercar and the other is a muscle car.
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Old 01-05-2012, 10:54 PM   #74
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As long as the MPG is averaged across the whole company instead of the individual vehicle, this will never be an issue. MPGs for most vehicles made in the USA are at an all time high, with newer, better, more efficient vehicles...

Think about it, in 2002 a 345hp Camaro got crappier mileage than my 500lb heavier, 70hp more Camaro.....Also, the Z06 Corvette was the first and only 500+hp car to not be tagged with the gas guzzler tax.

It CAN happen.... and quite honestly, it's not that big of a stretch to do it....

There are cars on the market right now with proper tuning are getting 3-5mpg better than what they are rated for...easily..
Hey I hope your right. There is nothing more that I would love to have than a 500+ hp vehicle that gets 45 mpg. If they can pull it off in a Z28 you can bet I will be one ofthr first in line. But remember that the fleet wide mpg rating is 54... thats pretty damn high. In fact the Prius doesnt get that now and GM only makes a few high MPG vehicles... yet none of them are close. Adn th Volt... well they arent selling too well... and not sure how they even fall into the equation. One thing is for sure, all of the vehicle manufacturers have stated it will cost them 10's of billions of dollars to develope that technology and to meet that standard. The cost WILL be passed down to us, the consumer, making even fuel efficient vehicles dramatically increase in cost. Think about what it will do to sports cars.
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Old 01-05-2012, 11:12 PM   #75
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The ACR Viper that was used to break the ZR1's record was a not in production model, as the Viper was discontinued in 2010. Also, the ACR is essentially a stripped down car while the ZR1 used was exactly how it came off the assembly line. Stereo, cruise control, etc etc etc...

Wow, a "not in production model". Really? So because the car had just been discontinued for a model change you are discounting what it did at the Ring??? That is L A M E. The two Vipers taken over there were STRAIGHT OFF THE SHOWROOM FLOOR AS BUILT FROM THE PLANT WITHOUT ANY UPGRADES OR MODIFICATIONS.

Also, the ACR borrowed the same model tire that the ZR1 ran it's top lap on which were NOT available for the 2010 ACR when it was produced.

Again wrong. It was the EXACT factory tire the 2010 Viper rolled off the assembly line with.

Lastly, the ACR-X is a fully track built car, such as the Cobra Jet and is not street legal nor is it "factory" anything...and it ran the track wearing slicks, not street tires...

Again wrong. It is a actory built car... it rolled off the assembly line as is. Nothing was added, taken off of, or modified from the plant. That is how they are built. Street legal, no. Factory, yes!

As for the 7:41 to 7:12 comment, 30 seconds slower over a 11 mile course in a car that weighs almost 800lbs more isn't all that impressive honestly. Especially given that one is essentially a street legal, hand built supercar and the other is a muscle car.
30 seconds is FOREVER on any track. And the Viper isnt a supercar. I would call the LFA or a Salleen a supercar. Surely not a car priced at 100k.


I think this was put best after the haters started coming out...


"Are you really a writer for an automobile publication? When the ZR-1, then the GT-2, then the LFA hit their times, they were considered the fastest "production" cars around the Ring. Now that the Viper has beat the LFA, people start throwing out names of cars that could hardly be considered "production" cars. Are there faster cars around the Ring than the Viper? Heck yes. I (and most rational people) just don't consider them "production" cars.
As for the ACR that just ran 7:12, it was straight off a dealer's showroom floor!
Tires? Pilot Sport Cups. The same DOT tires that come STOCK on EVERY ACR.
Modified 5th gear? This was a STOCK change made on EVERY 2010 ACR.
Adjustable aerodynamics? The same STOCK ones on EVERY ACR.
... Official Timer? This can be vague, but most everyone (exepct Porsche) uses the same start/stop points. Video also shows this.
One thing you didn't mention is that the car was set up by a race team close to the Ring. Does this count against it? No. The suspension was set up by them, but that suspension is the STOCK, ADJUSTABLE suspension on EVERY ACR."

Very factual to say the least. Anway, enough of this. I didnt want to get back onto this topic but false info is false info. Bottom line is everyone should thank GM/Chrysler for getting into the hp wars (and Ford with the GT for 2 years). That is why we have some many great 500+ hp cars to choose from and potentially including the Z28. I just hope it can keep going and the economy turns around so we can start seeing more of these cars on the streets. I wont get to own many of them but I sure like looking at them... and hopefully driving a few of them.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:22 AM   #76
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Keep it simple. New posters review the thread. Read the OP's question. Keep it all within perspective. This has gone way OT.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:32 AM   #77
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Agreed...and I apologize to all for participating in this "off-road" adventure...

"Ultimate Halo Camaro" = ZL1, by corporate edict.

Potential Z/28 simply offers another flavor, especially for those desiring the most nimble (for its size), entertaining, canyon road-worthy version, at the slight expense of all-out 1/4-mile performance. A "focused" purposeful Camaro. Just as the "original" was...

Times change, but the raison d'etre of a Z/28 doesn't NEED to, nor does it HAVE to...and your confirmation of that is something called the BOSS...

"Is This a Z/28 Disguised as a ZL1?"

Again, we sincerely hope so...

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Old 01-06-2012, 12:31 PM   #78
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Bliz I would agree 100%...except...the 1LE @ SEMA was MRC-equipped which, in my feeble mind, indicates a genuine Camaro Team "enthusiasm" for the technology. As well, the MRC (with perhaps slight tweaking for lower and differently distributed weight) exists, while my personally preferred "massaged FE4" doesn't. Anything not currently existing/certified/validated would add development time and expense, especially a "new" lowered suspension that would dictate fresh crash-testing and durability trials. And we don't want GM goin' banco again 'cuz of US!

As well, MRC spread over two programs (if not three: ZL1, Z/28 and perhaps 1LE based on an LS3-engined SS) aids unit cost and, therefore, pricing and profitability. A "unique-to-ZEE" suspension might end up costing essentially the SAME as an MRC-equipped car. And the vast majority of Z/28s will likely never actively enjoy the Streets of Willow...most WILL enjoy the streets of Detroit et al, frost heaves 'n all...

For those who WILL run in a sanctioned Series forbidding MRC, I absolutely expect GMPP to have the requisite homologated mechanical suspension (with a Pedders sticker on it, somewhere...) readily available from Hometown Chevy. In fact, it may already have a Part #...

Moving forward (i.e. Gen-6 Camaro), I foresee wider use of electronic suspension systems as vehicles decrease in size (by necessity) but consumers are not willing to accept "crapcan" ride 'n handling...

Again, conjecture...combined with a smidgeon of wishful thinking...but it IS my $.02...

Addendum:
As to the "gray hair" comment/guess, I'll confirm that to be true...what little there IS...

.
Like the Boss I see 2 Z28 models happening. When the 1LE was produced it was an upgrade to the Z28, which will most likely happen again I believe. I do not think either should come with MRC but it seems a high possibility that one of them will, that being the 1LE. now I am not positive but I don't think an upgraded FE4 set up will need to be crash tested.

Now on a side note, crash testing might be needed if the link points are moved which truly need to be done.

The Z28 has an appeal of the blue collar man's super car and it backed it up on the track in the TransAM series. I feel it would hurt the Z28 if it were to lose this heritage with it not being track legal with MRC. I agree that only a few of us will take our cars to the track but I also see the Z28 selling less then the SS and more along the lines of the ZL1 as far as numbers go. This leads me to believe that while a small percent of Camaro owners will go to the track, a Large percent will be Z28 owners.
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Old 01-08-2012, 03:53 PM   #79
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Yes, a 1LE track pack will come forth in the Gen5 lineup. The Z28 will be held for the Gen6 structure, which will be in the 3,400 lb. ballpark. How do I know? A little birdy told me this afternoon on Funk and Wagnels' back porch..
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Old 01-08-2012, 05:40 PM   #80
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Yes, a 1LE track pack will come forth in the Gen5 lineup. The Z28 will be held for the Gen6 structure, which will be in the 3,400 lb. ballpark. How do I know? A little birdy told me this afternoon on Funk and Wagnels' back porch..
This has been my thought for a long long time. The Gen6 would be great timing for the "whole new package" and "put the hit out on Boss 302"...

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Old 01-08-2012, 08:22 PM   #81
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This has been my thought for a long long time. The Gen6 would be great timing for the "whole new package" and "put the hit out on Boss 302"...

Peeps will be GaGa


You've got a point there gramps...
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Old 01-08-2012, 08:40 PM   #82
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You've got a point there gramps...
Who you calling "Gramps" around this forum?? At least you've got the creds to do so (as do I). There is a whole group of us on here that could show some of these young whippersnappers a thing or two!!
Back on topic: I think it is starting to look like a 6th gen. Z/28 would be the better package with the weight advantage that should happen, perhaps GM waited too long to do a 5th gen Z/28 because the cat is now out of the bag about what could be possible for the 6th gen camaro. If they do a 5th gen Z/28, I think well informed people like those on these forums will probably wait for the 6th gen, I do think a 5th gen Z/28 would be awesome looking as it would be so close in appearence to my favorite '69 version, but I just can't overlook the 300-400 lb weight advantage it appears the 6th gen will have.
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Old 01-08-2012, 08:45 PM   #83
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Who you calling "Gramps" around this forum?? At least you've got the creds to do so (as do I). There is a whole group of us on here that could show some of these young whippersnappers a thing or two!!
Back on topic: I think it is starting to look like a 6th gen. Z/28 would be the better package with the weight advantage that should happen, perhaps GM waited too long to do a 5th gen Z/28 because the cat is now out of the bag about what could be possible for the 6th gen camaro. If they do a 5th gen Z/28, I think well informed people like those on these forums will probably wait for the 6th gen, I do think a 5th gen Z/28 would be awesome looking as it would be so close in appearence to my favorite '69 version, but I just can't overlook the 300-400 lb weight advantage it appears the 6th gen will have.
Clyde
OMG OK, stay calm....wooosah...woosah. FYI< htron calls me pops, and related himself to me as gramps....Holy WTF is goin on Batman....half baked, half ****ed, and 180 degrees of course...your appology will be accepted. Once again someone says something unfactual, and wrong.
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Old 01-08-2012, 08:52 PM   #84
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OMG OK, stay calm....wooosah...woosah. FYI< htron calls me pops, and related himself to me as gramps....Holy WTF is goin on Batman....half baked, half ****ed, and 180 degrees of course...your appology will be accepted. Once again someone says something unfactual, and wrong.
You know I'm just teasing you as one oldster to another!!
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Old 01-08-2012, 08:56 PM   #85
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You know I'm just teasing you as one oldster to another!!
Clyde
....two words....you can say them....come on now, oldster to oldster, you can do it...when you are wrong, don't be affraid to admit it... first word starts with I, second with S....
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