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Old 01-11-2012, 03:35 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by b4z View Post
The worst part about is that the 3400lb ATS is quicker than the '10-12 Camaros.
350 lbs should knock .3-.4 off the 0-60 time.
What engine are you assuming is going to be in that 3400 lb ATS? Odds are, it will be the 200 hp 2.5L ecotec. It might be the 2.0 turbo at 270 hp. Probably won't be a V6 at that weight. And won't be a V8.

Power to weight ratio says that neither of the 4 bangers should be faster than a V6 Camaro, let alone the SS. Even a V6 ATS won't match an SS unless its a turbocharged ATS-V (if they go such a route for that car). And an ATS-V, I suspect, would start somewhere north of $50k if its a turbo6 or NA V8.

I don't think Camaro owners need to be too worried.
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Old 01-11-2012, 05:30 PM   #87
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If the SS ends up being the entry level v-8 again they need to use the weight loss as leverage. Keep the acceleration about the same and work on improving mpg.
Or reduce drag, Corvette is 30+ mpg.
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Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
What engine are you assuming is going to be in that 3400 lb ATS? Odds are, it will be the 200 hp 2.5L ecotec. It might be the 2.0 turbo at 270 hp. Probably won't be a V6 at that weight. And won't be a V8.

Power to weight ratio says that neither of the 4 bangers should be faster than a V6 Camaro, let alone the SS. Even a V6 ATS won't match an SS unless its a turbocharged ATS-V (if they go such a route for that car). And an ATS-V, I suspect, would start somewhere north of $50k if its a turbo6 or NA V8.

I don't think Camaro owners need to be too worried.
I need to watch the unveil vid again, (don't see it on youtube yet) I think he said the V6 car is slightly over 3400.
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Old 01-11-2012, 06:27 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
What engine are you assuming is going to be in that 3400 lb ATS? Odds are, it will be the 200 hp 2.5L ecotec. It might be the 2.0 turbo at 270 hp. Probably won't be a V6 at that weight. And won't be a V8.

Power to weight ratio says that neither of the 4 bangers should be faster than a V6 Camaro, let alone the SS. Even a V6 ATS won't match an SS unless its a turbocharged ATS-V (if they go such a route for that car). And an ATS-V, I suspect, would start somewhere north of $50k if its a turbo6 or NA V8.

I don't think Camaro owners need to be too worried.
The announced engines so far for the 2013 ATS are the base 2.5L I4 naturally aspirated and weighing under 3400 lbs, a 2.0 I4 Turbo, a 3.6 DOHC V6 @ 320hp and by GM's own numbers should weigh about 3,456 lbs, and an unidentified diesel has also been confirmed. BTW, the 2013 ATS has already been tested at the "Ring", so they should have handling packages worked out already.
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Old 01-11-2012, 07:35 PM   #89
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I'll say that a next Gen SS (with a V8) will weigh 3,600+ lbs.

Having said that I'll take a 5th Gen Z28 at 3,850 lbs (or less) and remove another 100 or so lbs myself. Just make sure it has an LS7! I love this design, and the clay model shown already turns me off.
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Old 01-11-2012, 07:52 PM   #90
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I'll say that a next Gen SS (with a V8) will weigh 3,600+ lbs.

Having said that I'll take a 5th Gen Z28 at 3,850 lbs (or less) and remove another 100 or so lbs myself. Just make sure it has an LS7! I love this design, and the clay model shown already turns me off.
I have to politely disagree on the weight for a 6th gen Z/28. The numbers released by GM for the new ATS (which will share it's platform with the 6th gen Camaro) show the ATS with the same DOHC V6 @ 320hp in the 5th gen Camaro should weigh 3,456 lbs. We know in the 5th gen Camaro that the weight difference between the V6 and SS is about 70 lbs, in the ATS add those 70 lbs to the V6 weight of 3,456 lbs and you arrive at 3,516 lbs. Unless the numbers change radically later on, I cannot see how a 6th gen Z/28 would be 3,600+ lbs.
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:07 PM   #91
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It'll depend on the power output of the LT1. BIG power takes HD driveline/brakes/wheels 'n tires. The engine weight differential, V6 to V8, is likely to be 50 pounds+. So, getting to something close to 3600, give or take, still has you at a very handsome power-to-weight.

Again, folks, it's THREE l-o-n-g years away...there is STILL time for a right-contented Gen-5 ZEE to send this version out with a BANG!
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:24 PM   #92
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I know we're talking power to weight ratio here but consider that the new 302S from the blue oval is 3200 lbs and 440 HP. For GM to even start playing in the same ballgame, GM needs a light weight Z-28 with chassis and suspension development equal to or better than the Ford offering. GM's got a lot of work to do and are frankly loosing the battle on the racetrack. Look at Grand AM level road racing and then look at the grassroots guys. There's a reason why there are 5 mustangs for every 1 camaro. It costs 3 times as much money to get a Camaro anywhere close to working in the corner compared to the mustangs... I'll get off my soapbox. It's late and I've frankly had a rough week coming to the realization that my SS at 3865 lbs as it sits won't ever get any lighter than a 302 5.0...
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:30 PM   #93
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It'll depend on the power output of the LT1. BIG power takes HD driveline/brakes/wheels 'n tires. The engine weight differential, V6 to V8, is likely to be 50 pounds+. So, getting to something close to 3600, give or take, still has you at a very handsome power-to-weight.

Again, folks, it's THREE l-o-n-g years away...there is STILL time for a right-contented Gen-5 ZEE to send this version out with a BANG!
LT1?

V8 may need structural enforcement also.

Still plenty of time, but they better hurry, 2016 model may be 2015 mid year production.
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Old 01-11-2012, 08:56 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
It'll depend on the power output of the LT1. BIG power takes HD driveline/brakes/wheels 'n tires. The engine weight differential, V6 to V8, is likely to be 50 pounds+. So, getting to something close to 3600, give or take, still has you at a very handsome power-to-weight.

Again, folks, it's THREE l-o-n-g years away...there is STILL time for a right-contented Gen-5 ZEE to send this version out with a BANG!
I understand that a more powerful engine needs better driveline, etc., but that's why I used the current weight difference between the V6 manual and SS manual. Would not the 5th gen SS have better driveline components, etc. than the V6 (426hp vs 320hp)? The current weight difference between those two 5th gen versions is 70 lbs (actually 69lbs, but that's close enough).
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:02 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by full of days View Post
I know we're talking power to weight ratio here but consider that the new 302S from the blue oval is 3200 lbs and 440 HP. For GM to even start playing in the same ballgame, GM needs a light weight Z-28 with chassis and suspension development equal to or better than the Ford offering. GM's got a lot of work to do and are frankly loosing the battle on the racetrack. Look at Grand AM level road racing and then look at the grassroots guys. There's a reason why there are 5 mustangs for every 1 camaro. It costs 3 times as much money to get a Camaro anywhere close to working in the corner compared to the mustangs... I'll get off my soapbox. It's late and I've frankly had a rough week coming to the realization that my SS at 3865 lbs as it sits won't ever get any lighter than a 302 5.0...
302S? Thats a striped out spec series racer. Don't even bother comparing it to real production cars.


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LT1?

V8 may need structural enforcement also.

Still plenty of time, but they better hurry, 2016 model may be 2015 mid year production.
The LT1 is the designation for first of the new Gen V small blocks. Its not to be confused with the LT1 from the mid 90's. Which reminds me ...

GM needs to extend the length of time engine codes are retired. 15 years, give or take, simply isn't long enough.
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Old 01-11-2012, 09:16 PM   #96
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302S? Thats a striped out spec series racer. Don't even bother comparing it to real production cars.



The LT1 is the designation for first of the new Gen V small blocks. Its not to be confused with the LT1 from the mid 90's. Which reminds me ...

GM needs to extend the length of time engine codes are retired. 15 years, give or take, simply isn't long enough.
It confused me THIS time.....

I'll forget.

... and be confused NEXT time too

So this will be the 3rd LT1, that's okay, the first two were great, the new one has a lot to live up to
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Old 01-12-2012, 09:20 AM   #97
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I understand that a more powerful engine needs better driveline, etc., but that's why I used the current weight difference between the V6 manual and SS manual. Would not the 5th gen SS have better driveline components, etc. than the V6 (426hp vs 320hp)? The current weight difference between those two 5th gen versions is 70 lbs (actually 69lbs, but that's close enough).
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Whether or not we see a Gen-5 ZEE, I believe the "halo" Gen-6 Camaro WILL be a ZEE. The ZL1 simply will NOT translate beyond Gen-5...

A ZL1, currently, carries at least 100 extra pounds for the LSA...then all the coolers and gold chains which, compared to a 1SS, adds damn near 300 pounds. And some of that weight is further-reinforced drivetrain: brakes/HD diff 'n axles/HD trans etc.

To make an 8lb/hp (or better!) Gen-6 ZEE will require components well beyond the 318 hp (their figure) V6 stuff...which will add more than 50-70 lb. total.

A 450 hp LT1 (a number tossed around GM-centered discussions) with 3600 total ZEE Curb Weight = the magical 8.0! IF it comes in at 3550, great...and less would be fine, too. But festooning the car with all manner of c/f and ti to get the Curb a whole lot LOWER will simply put the price of admission a whole lot HIGHER...and I, for one, am NOT looking forward to a ZEE priced the same as a ZL1 currently is.
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:21 PM   #98
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Whether or not we see a Gen-5 ZEE, I believe the "halo" Gen-6 Camaro WILL be a ZEE. The ZL1 simply will NOT translate beyond Gen-5...

A ZL1, currently, carries at least 100 extra pounds for the LSA...then all the coolers and gold chains which, compared to a 1SS, adds damn near 300 pounds. And some of that weight is further-reinforced drivetrain: brakes/HD diff 'n axles/HD trans etc.

To make an 8lb/hp (or better!) Gen-6 ZEE will require components well beyond the 318 hp (their figure) V6 stuff...which will add more than 50-70 lb. total.

A 450 hp LT1 (a number tossed around GM-centered discussions) with 3600 total ZEE Curb Weight = the magical 8.0! IF it comes in at 3550, great...and less would be fine, too. But festooning the car with all manner of c/f and ti to get the Curb a whole lot LOWER will simply put the price of admission a whole lot HIGHER...and I, for one, am NOT looking forward to a ZEE priced the same as a ZL1 currently is.
Neither do I want to see a 6th gen Z/28 price pushed to very high numbers as a result of trying to save weight with expensive lightweight materials, but everyone needs to read GM's press release on how they focused on weight savings in the ATS. And how much heavier driveline would be needed for an LT1 powered 6th gen Z/28 compared to the driveline in the 5th gen SS which is rated @ 426hp? As I said before the total weight difference between a 5th gen V6 and SS is 70 lbs overall which includes the heavier drivetrain, brakes, etc. of the SS. GM's weight savings no are focused on grams and ounces saved everywhere throughout the car rather than a few expensive lightweight pieces. They looked at 'how can we make these inner door panels lighter", "how can we save a pound or so on this casting without sacrificing strength", etc. throughout the entire car. This is a new era of weight reduction and not simply throwing a few big, expensive pieces of CF at the problem to bring about weight reduction. This new type of weight reduction won't cost big bucks that will drive the unit price upwards.
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:24 PM   #99
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I would love to see a Z/28 @3,400lbs... When is the 6th Gen cars suppose to debut ???
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Old 01-12-2012, 08:47 PM   #100
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I would love to see a Z/28 @3,400lbs... When is the 6th Gen cars suppose to debut ???
I don't think that will happen, the Caddy ATS V6 is about 3,456 lb., then add V8 and driveline weight a 6th gen Z/28 should be at 3,516 lbs. or slightly more based on preliminary guesses from the 2013 ATS weights (the ATS and 6th gen Camaro will share the Alpha chassis). The 6th gen Camaro should be a 2016 model, so we should see them in 2015 (possibly late 2015 rather than early).
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Old 01-12-2012, 09:08 PM   #101
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I'm hoping they use a SC 3.6L for the ATS-V. That way the tech will roll down to us who dig the V6 Camaros. As for the Z28, It would be cool if they used a true 302 CI V8 motor for this car and it weighed in under 3500 lbs and can at least go toe to toe with an M3 on a road course if not beat it. Now that to me would be awesome and a car I'd love to own. I still would love to see an H.O. FI V6 option for the Camaro as well. Not sure what it could be called. RS-R for rice? JK
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Old 01-12-2012, 11:39 PM   #102
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I've been following the ATS for a while now because I'm so excited at the potential for the Alpha platform. Now that specs are getting out people are going nuts over this car. This is the 4th or 5th seperate thread I've seen on this car now.

They are saying the turbo 4 will weigh a little over 3,300 lbs. I'd imagine the V6 can't weight much if at all over 3,400. Now Imagine the next Camaro V6 weighing about that much...my gosh that would be so fun. Stock it would be capable of mid 5 or so to 60 MPH, with a mid to mid-high 13 second quarter. Hell some decent bolt ons would put it damn close to today's SS.

Now imagine a DI V8 or TTV6 in there....*drool*
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