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Old 01-18-2012, 08:17 PM   #1
jairocamaro
 
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Oil Catch Can

HI GUYS
is necessary Oil Catch Can in my camaro ss l99?
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Old 01-18-2012, 08:19 PM   #2
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There are so many threads about catch cans in the LS engines. Do a search and you will find all the information you need.
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Old 01-18-2012, 08:24 PM   #3
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No they are not needed, but without one oil goes into the intake, more so on higher performance
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Old 01-18-2012, 08:27 PM   #4
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YES a catch can is necessary. It is a preventative measure to oil build up inside the intake.
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Old 01-18-2012, 08:29 PM   #5
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Speak to SC2150 (Tracy) of RX Performance. He will give you all the info on catch cans that you would need. I ordered mine from him and couldnt be happier. Yes it is a necessary thing for these engines. Keeps oil from building up in your intake as Stieger mentioned.
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Old 01-18-2012, 08:35 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parag View Post
No they are not needed, but without one oil goes into the intake, more so on higher performance
+1 they really aren't necessary on port injected street cars unless you're shooting for 200k+ miles. People need to stop taking what certain vendors of said catch cans preach as gospel for the truth..
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Old 01-18-2012, 08:42 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by asrautox View Post
+1 they really aren't necessary on port injected street cars unless you're shooting for 200k+ miles. People need to stop taking what certain vendors of said catch cans preach as gospel for the truth..
*shakes head* I'm not taking anything for gospel. I use a catch can because on my old 2010 SS I didn't have a catch can and when I removed the throttle body their was about 3mm of oil. First hand experience.
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Old 01-18-2012, 08:44 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by stieger View Post
*shakes head* I'm not taking anything for gospel. I use a catch can because on my old 2010 SS I didn't have a catch can and when I removed the throttle body their was about 3mm of oil. First hand experience.
Shake your head all you want.. What quantifiable difference did that 3mm of oil make? Just because oil is there doesn't mean it's harming anything. All modern day vehicles are designed to ingest oil, so what really does removing it do for us again?
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Old 01-18-2012, 08:52 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asrautox View Post
Shake your head all you want.. What quantifiable difference did that 3mm of oil make? Just because oil is there doesn't mean it's harming anything. All modern day vehicles are designed to ingest oil, so what really does removing it do for us again?
Yes they are designed to ingest some amount of oil. But that doesn't mean it's good for them. Just like how our arteries naturally get clogged with cholesterol - just because it happens doesn't mean its good for you. Letting all that cholesterol
build up will also eventually cause the artery to become completely blocked - and then you have a heart attack and die.


http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59340

Also,

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
Understanding the need for
a proper PCV oil separating catchcan


Any engine driven hard will ingest a certain amount of oil into the intake air system resulting in loss of power, detonation, and long term carbon buildup on the pistons & valves reducing the velocity and flow through the engine.


Preventing this on a street driven car subject to emissions requires some simple modifications to the closed OEM PCV system.


On all out race applications where emission rules do not apply, this is accomplished in different ways, but proper crankcase ventilation is a must! The crankcase gets filled with harmful combustion byproducts that if not evacuated will cause internal damage to your engine and shorten the usable life. These byproducts include: Sulfuric acids, abrasive carbon particles, unburnt fuel, water, and more. If you do not have a proper crankcase evacuation system these compounds will condense inside the engine and mix with the oil as well as begin corroding internal parts. It is NOT enough to just vent the crankcase pressure through a breather, but it must be flushed with a filtered fresh air source to carry these out & away. In an OEM system, these are burnt in the combustion chamber & further in the catalytic converters.


In an off-road or race application, the engine is normally not used to burn them off.
At the very least drag only motors have a scavenge evac system in the header collectors to pull vac, and anyone that's serious has a belt driven vac pump.....especially the Alky motors due to the amount of moisture the alcohol introduces to the crankcase. Next time your at a sanctioned (NHRA/IHRA) race walk around the pits and look at the dragster motors and how they evac. You will see that any w/a vac pump run a relief valve on the opposite valve cover because if you pull any more than 14-15" of vac you start to pull oil off the wrist pins & rod journals.

I have run a pro team for 7 years and we run most every sanctioned track in the Eastern US and have yet to see a high HP dragster or door car w/out evac.

Want to see whats in your oil? A simple oil analysis will show you how much harmful stuff ends up in it.


The oil analysis will show the acid build up....and no, it takes a year or two before you would see any substantial damage to your internal engine parts.....but an easy way is after 6 months or so of running like you describe pull a valve cover and look and the corrosion from the vapors on your rocker arms. This is the first place it is visible.

More of my background? My team holds several local, divisional, National, & World championships in Super Pro, Super Comp, Quick rod, Top Dragster, and non-electronics.....I am also a graduate of the Reher Morrison Racing engine building school and have been an engine builder for over 35 years as well as having an engineering & machinist background. Take a little time & read David Reher's tech tips......a world of information: http://www.rehermorrison.com/blog/?cat=3

Bottom line is, w/out a proper evac system you WILL sustain long term engine damage. It may take a few years to notice, but I build motors 6 days a week when not racing and see the results first hand.

There are several other ways for oil mist to enter the intake manifold, the PCV system is the most common with the fresh air make up source (the fitting on the top rear of your throttle body) being the second most common. To eliminate that you need to cap the TB fitting and run a valve cover breather (installed as far from the crankcase vent as possible...ideally you want to pull filtered fresh air in one valve cover & evac it out the other or the LS6/LS2 style valley cover is second best) Then if it is excess crankcase pressure pushing oil vapor/mist out faster than the PCV can evac it you will see it pushed back through the line from the pass valve cover front to the TB and it is ingested from there. The 3rd point of ingestion is from reversion. This of course needs at least one piston/ring/bore/valveguide or seal issue that is allowing oil to be pulled into that one or more intake port and at high RPM's the reversion pulse will "push" that oil throughout the entire intake manifold. It will appear to have entered from the vac fitting that the PCV system uses but is really from one of the cylinders (reversion is a whole different process that is not widely understood but do a Google search and you can actually find some super high speed video of engines on dyno's where at high RPM's...9-10-12K plus the reversion cloud of A/F mixture is actually rising out of the intake runners or carb on a non fuel injected motor). To test for that just place a clean clear fuel filter inline between the catch can outlet and the vac fitting. If it gets oil on the can side, oil is coming through the can. If it first appears on the intake vacuum side, then it is reversion so you have a deeper issue.

Having engine smoke or excess crankcase pressure? There may be a deeper issue. On the LS motors we pull apart it is usually # 7 ringland broken between the compression & middle ring, or the land itself broke off at the top. We also find the top ringland pinched or crushed down on the top ring (comp. ring) and metal transfer along the piston side has caused the oil & scraper ring to stick allowing oil & blow-by. Also, try this: at idle (vac is at it's greatest when at idle or when the throttle blade closes from high RPM's) remove the oil fill cap and hold your hand over it. Does it pull a slight suction? If so, all is good with most of the system and I doubt you have a damaged piston/ring/bore. But if there is ANY pressure pushing back you have a deeper issue and that is the cause of the oil problem.

Now on big cam/stroker builds a can inline on the dirty side, and a can inline from the fresh air source may be needed (the bigger the bore & longer the stroke, the more crankcase pressure is built up) If it is forced induction, then you have a whole new process to deal with......and that is the PCV system works properly when at idle & non-boost, but when you start making boost you have switched from the intake manifold being negative atmosphere to a pressurized component and the PCV system is rendered useless and pressure escapes wherever it can. The solution then is to have one way check valves inline so the vacuum need for proper evacuation comes from in front of the compressor (head unit) through a line run to the air filter.

This is getting a bit long and I hope all can follow this, but if not ask me specific questions for clarification so this helps all. I'll go over every type of solution and the pros & cons of each....and remember, this problem is NOT just in the GM LS based engines, but is an issue with ALL modern closed systems. We just tear into our cars where as the Mercedes or Lincoln owner never even realizes there is an issue.

I also wanted to address the water in the oil. You will NOT fill your crankcase up in short order with just breathers. What happens is each time your engine reaches operating temp the unburnt fuel, water vapor, combustion by-products will gas or "flash-off" as vapor. But only the excess crankcase pressure being relieved through the breather will carry any of that out....and without a proper evac system, a good amount remains in the crankcase and re-condenses back to droplets that coat the internal engine parts as your motor cools down and it contaminates the oil. Every time you heat cycle you are adding more contamination and it is not very visible to just "look" at your oil....you need a professional analysis to see just what is accumulating in your oil and how it is breaking down its ability to protect...but the corrosion from the sulfuric acid is also very damaging over time (I'll try to post up some pics of parts showing just this in the near future). Just pull the dipstick on a diesel 20 miles after an oil change...it already "looks" black & dirty, but is still new and providing the proper protection. Sight is deceiving. Oil might look pretty clean or dirty but an analysis report will show destructive levels of contaminants.


And finally, some have gone so far as to cap off the entire system and run an open hose from each valve cover to near the ground. While this will eliminate all oil getting into the intake via the PCV system, the damage done by the hose with the least amount of air moving past it while at speed will suck dirt/sand/dust/water/and who knows what else directly into the motor via that valve cover. It may take some time (depending on how clean the roads you drive on are) but will result in premature engine wear & failure.


The solution for the street crowd is a properly designed, good functioning oil separating catchcan. Many are available on the market, but ONLY one designed with internal baffling and a good distance separating the inlet from the outlet. Many of the cans seen for low prices on Ebay, etc. are great looking, but are nothing but empty cans with two fittings attached. Do your homework & get a full understanding before you make your selection.

Hope this is helpful info! Anyone need further clarification just ask, this can be a good discussion thread on this issue.

Here is what you want to prevent:

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Old 01-18-2012, 09:14 PM   #10
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there is always going to be ones that just wont accept the idea of having a catch can installed. I personally dont want alot of oil build up in my intake, it just isnt good for it. thats all the reason i need to have one!
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Old 01-18-2012, 09:59 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asrautox View Post
so what really does removing it do for us again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by asrautox View Post
they really aren't necessary on port injected street cars unless you're shooting for 200k+ miles.
I think you answered your own question

Oh and thats what im shooting for so i like the peace of mind.
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:11 AM   #12
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LOL, I've seen that article posted many times by those that defend the catch can as a requirement for these vehicles. What I get from the article is that some guy with extensive engineering and racing experience believes they are necessary, but fails to provide any conclusive evidence (dyno data, durability test data, etc.) that a catch can is necessary to keep our street cars healthy, and instead relies on his extensive experience and circumstantial examples to 'prove' that they should be used.

Let me ask this question, if every single modern day vehicle does not come with a catch can, and if a CC is in fact necessary for engine longevity, how can manufacturers comfortably offer 100,000 mile powertrain warranties? We're talking about millions of vehicles per year, and billions upon billions of dollars in potential liabilities here. You're telling me that teams of automotive engineers are ignoring this glaring problem, while one guy with extensive experience knows more than they do?

/rant At any rate, if a $150 CC is what it takes for you guys to feel better about your engine lasting, by all means buy a CC and sleep well at night. I for one, will sleep just as well knowing that GM engineers designed this engine to last a very very long time without the hassle of a CC..
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Old 01-19-2012, 11:48 AM   #13
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This is my intake manifold.....

....I have one now.
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Old 01-19-2012, 12:06 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asrautox View Post
+1 they really aren't necessary on port injected street cars unless you're shooting for 200k+ miles. People need to stop taking what certain vendors of said catch cans preach as gospel for the truth..
I'm open to any data you have that ANY modern car or light truck will not see detrimental performance, engine life, fuel economy with out a proper functioning can......Just share the info and we can go over any misconceptions you may have. Just ask that it be actual data with details and not "the GM service writer said, or I know a guy that said" so we can keep it factual.

I have been doing this for 38 years and I still can and do learn new things, but building engines is what I do and this is my area of expertise.

I do agree that many (ebay is an example) throw up any product with a few fittings on and call it a oil separating catchcan, and that is hype.
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