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Old 06-10-2014, 09:27 AM   #1
zfuzz
 
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Supercharger replacement / Flutter ?

So on this supercharger replacement deal no one has mentioned the note in the TSB that manual transmission cars will experience a flutter / rattle. What the heck is up with that? Anyone with experience with this yet?

From TSB....

Note: To improve reliability of the supercharger one of the changes made was to go to a solid coupler between the geartrain and the drive pulley. A tradeoff to this improvement is that manual transmission vehicles may experience a flutter or rattle at low RPM (800-900) and high load (second or third gear). This flutter only lasts a moment and is a normal characteristic of this design.
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Old 06-10-2014, 09:42 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zfuzz View Post
So on this supercharger replacement deal no one has mentioned the note in the TSB that manual transmission cars will experience a flutter / rattle. What the heck is up with that? Anyone with experience with this yet?

From TSB....

Note: To improve reliability of the supercharger one of the changes made was to go to a solid coupler between the geartrain and the drive pulley. A tradeoff to this improvement is that manual transmission vehicles may experience a flutter or rattle at low RPM (800-900) and high load (second or third gear). This flutter only lasts a moment and is a normal characteristic of this design.
this could be in part, what the original spring coupler was designed to help alleviate as the spring would absorb some of the vibration.

now that they will be using a solid coupler, this inherent 'rattle' will not be absorbed and you may hear a bit of it under certain conditions.

Note: this is ALL speculation on my part.

Either way, note the conditions mentioned in the TSB.
Low RPM (800-900) AND high load (second or third gear)
and will be momentary.

How often would you be driving your manual ZL1 at those rpm's and high load?

just about as often as you would encounter the dreaded 'skip-shift'.

I'm not worried in the least.
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Old 07-11-2014, 11:09 AM   #3
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annoyed by this flutter or rattle, passengers new to my car ask me what is that noise. Have to tell them there is nothing wrong with the car and that it is normal. One friend told me you should have bought a german car. anyways this is not fun for a high priced car. I am sure it will contribute to the cars overall second hand value.
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Old 07-11-2014, 12:00 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Samson2029 View Post
annoyed by this flutter or rattle, passengers new to my car ask me what is that noise. Have to tell them there is nothing wrong with the car and that it is normal. One friend told me you should have bought a german car. anyways this is not fun for a high priced car. I am sure it will contribute to the cars overall second hand value.
Once AGAIN, if you can hear the rattle, take it to your local dealer. the SC will be replaced under warranty.
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Old 07-19-2014, 05:25 AM   #5
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Already got the new upgraded SC. Under light acceleration in first gear there is a brief but obvious rattle. I consider this a real turn off. Now I have to be more aggressive on the throttle for it not to rattle. Do the new 2014 and 2015 manuals have this rattling with its facory installed upgraded SC?? Any mods to reduce this rattle other than getting a louder exhaust?? For this momentary rattle to be mentioned in the TSB doesn't make it right or "OK". Customers should not accept this after paying close to 60 000$ This is an engineering screw up by GM and Eaton. If I were to test drive a 2015 zl1 and have noticed this vibration or rattle related to the solid isolator, it would have been enough for me not to purchase the car. Each customer is different but right now for me this is a real turn off and this may very welll be my last purchase from from a domestic car manufacturer. Going back to the dealer in hope that there is some adjustment to make this vibration/rattle less obvious. This will be my eighth visit to the garage ever since I purchased my 2013. (Transmission grinding noise, exhaust failure, front left wheel noise, back right suspension clunking, a damaged wheel by garage lift which the dealer denied, supercharger replacement, regular maintenance, and soon the key fab).

Last edited by Samson2029; 07-19-2014 at 05:41 AM.
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Old 07-19-2014, 08:21 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Samson2029 View Post
Already got the new upgraded SC. Under light acceleration in first gear there is a brief but obvious rattle. I consider this a real turn off. Now I have to be more aggressive on the throttle for it not to rattle. Do the new 2014 and 2015 manuals have this rattling with its facory installed upgraded SC?? Any mods to reduce this rattle other than getting a louder exhaust?? For this momentary rattle to be mentioned in the TSB doesn't make it right or "OK". Customers should not accept this after paying close to 60 000$ This is an engineering screw up by GM and Eaton. If I were to test drive a 2015 zl1 and have noticed this vibration or rattle related to the solid isolator, it would have been enough for me not to purchase the car. Each customer is different but right now for me this is a real turn off and this may very welll be my last purchase from from a domestic car manufacturer. Going back to the dealer in hope that there is some adjustment to make this vibration/rattle less obvious. This will be my eighth visit to the garage ever since I purchased my 2013. (Transmission grinding noise, exhaust failure, front left wheel noise, back right suspension clunking, a damaged wheel by garage lift which the dealer denied, supercharger replacement, regular maintenance, and soon the key fab).
What was diagnosed for the suspension clunking noise?
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Old 07-19-2014, 08:23 AM   #7
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WTF! All that money! That would annoy the hell out of me!
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Old 07-19-2014, 08:43 AM   #8
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I had mine replaced and I knew from GM's statement of what to expect on the noise for our manual cars. I have no problem with this because it is after all a high performance muscle car and you will have more mechanical sounds. I love the increased performance of the new blower and the enhanced sound coming thru my c.a.i. intake.
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Old 07-19-2014, 09:05 AM   #9
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The solid coupler is a mod a lot of people have done and I don't remember reading any complaints from them.

I don't ever even see the skip shift indicator, so I'm not concerned on the low RPM stuff. When I'm touching the redline in 3rd, I'm on a track with the windows down and a helmet on.

But my original springy coupler has yet to ________ ________. I can't actually type it, because as soon as I do, it will.
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Old 07-19-2014, 11:15 AM   #10
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The clunking noise in the rear suspension remain sun resolved. Nothing loose or broken. The suspension works perfectly. Was told to return if noise worsened. The clunking is an infrequent noise and happens only on certain types of road imperfections like going backwards out of an inclined parking or going up a hill and hitting the right type of road imperfection that is not to deep and not to small. The technician was unable to reproduce the noise on testing.

Concerning the New SC rattle my habit is to take off with minimal of RPM. So I am often in the 800 to 1000 rpm. Is my manual skills bad??
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Old 07-19-2014, 03:05 PM   #11
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I have the new supercharger installed now for a month or so and I have noticed zero flutter or rattle ..
Mine is a manual as well..
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Old 07-19-2014, 09:32 PM   #12
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Wow, deja vu. Can't seem to win with these eatons
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Old 07-19-2014, 09:39 PM   #13
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Got letter too. Said they would replace or reimburse if you had to pay for a fix.

I haven't heard any rattle at this time, 8000 miles.
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Old 07-20-2014, 01:35 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLHMARINES View Post
I had mine replaced and I knew from GM's statement of what to expect on the noise for our manual cars. I have no problem with this because it is after all a high performance muscle car and you will have more mechanical sounds. I love the increased performance of the new blower and the enhanced sound coming thru my c.a.i. intake.
Did you leave the CAI on when you took it to the dealer for the SC?
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Old 07-20-2014, 01:39 PM   #15
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Did you leave the CAI on when you took it to the dealer for the SC?
I left my RotoFab on. No questions asked about it.
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Old 07-20-2014, 03:28 PM   #16
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Did you leave the CAI on when you took it to the dealer for the SC?
Mine stayed on as well!
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Old 07-20-2014, 03:44 PM   #17
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Did you leave the CAI on when you took it to the dealer for the SC?
YES!!

I left my ported throttle body, catch can and C.A.I. on and my service manager and I were in talk about other mods that may come in the future.
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Old 07-22-2014, 02:00 AM   #18
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Yeah, its pretty obvious the issue has nothing to do with mods.
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Old 08-30-2014, 08:57 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Samson2029 View Post
Do the new 2014 and 2015 manuals have this rattling with its facory installed upgraded SC??
Yes, they do. My CTS-V (11/13 build) has it, and I've been fighting it ever since. Apparently my dealer is too stupid to find the bulletin that explains it, since I've had to diagnose it on my own. Mechanics are nothing more than appliance repairmen anymore, they're not allowed to actually think.

Quote:
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Customers should not accept this after paying close to 60 000$ This is an engineering screw up by GM and Eaton. If I were to test drive a 2015 zl1 and have noticed this vibration or rattle related to the solid isolator, it would have been enough for me not to purchase the car.
Add $10K to that, in my case.

I agree, I'd have not bought the car. GT500s prior to 2013 used the TVS1900 and it didn't rattle, it's got to be something either unique to the GM implementation or it's just sloppy QC on Eaton's part. But either way I don't see any way around it, if the former it's pervasive; if the latter, I somehow have to get a new supercharger and hope it's got tighter tolerances.
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Old 08-30-2014, 02:39 PM   #20
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So people are saying this "flutter" is caused by the solid coupler? Anyone have a video of this noise?
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Old 08-30-2014, 03:36 PM   #21
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Mine quieted down a little so its hard to get a video. I think its worse when the car gets hot so I'll be trying again
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Old 08-30-2014, 07:28 PM   #22
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Would trying the LPE coupler be worth it?

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Old 09-04-2014, 08:03 AM   #23
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So people are saying this "flutter" is caused by the solid coupler? Anyone have a video of this noise?
I don't have anything of the noise in situ, but here's the cause:

Video

If you take the belt off and twist the pulley back-and-forth rapidly, do you get any noise? There's clearance in mine - not much at all, it would be difficult to measure in terms of angular displacement - but the conditions where the rattle occurs seem to create a resonance or oscillation where the rotors are transitioning between being driven and bouncing off the other side of the lash due to inertia. The spring in the original coupler kept 'positive force' on the gear set so this wouldn't happen.

I wonder if all it would take to fix this is for the ECM to command the bypass valve to partially close under these conditions, to put just enough load on the rotors to keep them damped.

Last edited by Admiral Ballsy; 09-04-2014 at 08:21 AM.
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Old 09-04-2014, 09:02 AM   #24
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Anybody interested in a 2012 ZL1? It has 1700 miles, never driven the rain, and was broken in the way GM said it should be. I did not buy this car to have somebody at my local dealership take my engine apart, but it back together, and then have to explain to anybody who rides in why I have a car that sounds like a piece of $hit.
I have always owned GM cars, right now I have 7 Chevys, but I can't believe how bad they dropped the ball on the ZL1. They didn't do enough testing to this car before they put it on the market and now it's our problem.
GM should take our cars back and get there act together. I'm guessing the new Z06 won't be any better.
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Old 09-04-2014, 09:25 AM   #25
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Here's what I think happened:

  • Eaton builds the original TVS for the CTS-V program with the spring isolator/coupler. It's a good idea, a good design (I found the patent on it, back from '88).
  • Some segment of the CTS-V population experiences the marble sound after a while. It's caused by the abrading/compressing of the shaft, to the point that there's a little clearance between it and the spring when the latter 'unloads' at idle. They (rightfully) bitch about this. GM says "it's normal", which it is, but "normal" and "acceptable" are not mutually inclusive.
  • Ed somebody from GM says it's by design, explains why they did it the way they did, says there'll be a different noise if they go to a solid, don't worry, nothing bad will happen.
  • The ZL1 comes out, with the same setup and the same results.
  • For some unknown reason, they switch to a solid in MY 2014 and start a replacement program. And, what do you know, the new noise Ed predicted does indeed show up.
The only reasons I can think of for the switch are that they either got tired of the marble noise complaints, or that they figured out that the worn material can/does get past the bearing seal(s) and causes bearing failure.

I'm guessing the latter.

What do I do about this? Good question. Right now, I see these options:
  1. Do nothing (always the simplest option), live with it;
  2. Sell the car and move on with something else;
  3. Scrounge up a spring coupler, install it, and hope I never have issues with it;
  4. Hope something bad happens to the blower while in warranty, and hope the replacement has a tighter tolerance stack in the drive;
  5. Hope they eventually come up with an R&R program for this.
I don't think I can do 1. 5 seems so unlikely as to be wishful thinking (they're not making any more of these, 2015 ZL1s and 500 CTS-V coupes excepted). 4 is statistically like winning the lottery.

That leaves 2 and 3. There's nothing else out there I really want, except maybe an M6 SS, but in any case I sure don't want to take a $15K hit.

Therefore, 3 seems like the only reasonably *actionable* way to go. It would technically void the warranty, but since GM doesn't allow dealers to open the thing, I think worst-case is that it would eventually get replaced under the marbles TSB and then I'd be right back where I am now.

So, there's no good choices...
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