Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Raymonds Performance
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Members Area > Off-topic Discussions

Off-topic Discussions Discuss any off-topic subjects with other members.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-15-2007, 01:33 PM   #1
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Camaro 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 25,754
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
E-85 conversion

I was wondering if anybody knew (cough)Gmpowertrainguys(cough) how difficult it is for a company (what it takes) to convert an engine to run E-85.

say, and engine like, the LS3...

Thanks!
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Before You Post.
SIGN UP for 2014 Camaro5 HPDE @ Gingerman Raceway!
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2007, 04:52 PM   #2
SSFreak11
 
SSFreak11's Avatar
 
Drives: 2005 Dodge Ram Hemi
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Annapolis, MD
Posts: 112
I'm pretty sure that it's only $100ish worth of parts in the engine that make it capable of running on E85. I could be wrong though...
__________________
SSFreak11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2007, 08:44 PM   #3
The_Stache
SoCal Race Team #13
 
The_Stache's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS:RS:LS3:SW
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 1,697
Quote:
I'm pretty sure that it's only $100ish worth of parts in the engine that make it capable of running on E85. I could be wrong though...
In parts yes.. just some hoses, injectors,and filters (maybe new tank or a coating inside the tank for corrosion).. but then it takes a COMPLETELY new engine tune for the engine management. Its the tune thats expensive because its completely custom.
__________________
A.K.A - Diarmadhi (old handle) - So much to do.. So little money
Owner : Fast-Stache Industries LLC
The_Stache is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-15-2007, 08:55 PM   #4
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Camaro 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 25,754
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
I was thinking more along the lines, of (and I'm sure GM has to do all those things, too, though) what it would take for GM to make the LS3 E-85-able...cause that would make me the happiest person on the planet for a while.
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Before You Post.
SIGN UP for 2014 Camaro5 HPDE @ Gingerman Raceway!
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 12:30 AM   #5
KILLER74Z28
MOD SQUAD
 
KILLER74Z28's Avatar
 
Drives: 2G1FT1EW9A9100666
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Michigan
Posts: 5,609
It takes a lot more than 100ish or so. All parts that are steel in the fuel system need to be stainless to keep from corroding, and as diarmadhi stated, a completely different program in the PCM/ECM that recognizes the difference between Unleaded to E85.

I still don’t get the E85 fad??? I understand it burns cleaner but what people don’t realizes is that in order to make E85, refineries need to burn two to three times more fossil fuel… But don’t worry we’ll figure that out 20 to 30 years from now…
__________________

Who cares about the Blue Oval crowd and their little Ponys? We're getting our Camaro back-and it'll be Supercharged!-MDAII
Team LS3
KILLER74Z28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 02:38 AM   #6
TAG UR IT
www.Camaro5store.com
 
TAG UR IT's Avatar
 
Drives: THRSS #2 / CGM#1
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SA, Texas
Posts: 25,925
And on top of that, where in the heck are you going to find E85??? I don't think I've ever seen a gas station that offered it.
__________________
The build of THRSS #2
TAG UR IT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 09:18 AM   #7
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Camaro 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 25,754
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
I don't like it because of emissions. Hell no. But I want this car to be driveable in 30 years. So I can take my family out cruising .
I don't think raw gasoline is going to survive that long.
And for vehicles that need the power, like trucks, and Muscle cars that pure electricity maybe can't offer, there has to be some substitute, untill the electric motors and batteries can evolve enough. I see that substitute as E-85....

But I can't read the future. I just see this as my best bet: I'd love an E-85 capable Camaro.
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Before You Post.
SIGN UP for 2014 Camaro5 HPDE @ Gingerman Raceway!
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 10:56 AM   #8
DGthe3
Moderator.ca
 
DGthe3's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Grand Am GT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Niagara, Canada
Posts: 21,722
Send a message via MSN to DGthe3
Quote:
Originally Posted by KILLER74Z28 View Post
I still don’t get the E85 fad??? I understand it burns cleaner but what people don’t realizes is that in order to make E85, refineries need to burn two to three times more fossil fuel… But don’t worry we’ll figure that out 20 to 30 years from now…
The energy input to biofuels isn't that high and it depends on the type. but typically it is about 50% more to make a 'green' fuel. Its like getting out of debt by taking a loan. It solves the problem at the moment but just makes it worse for later on

As for where the push for biofuels, much of it comes from agriculture lobbiests saying that the poor farmer can't get by anymore. Before anyone picks on me for this 5/7 of my uncles are farmers. They seem to be doing fine. On top of that, the bulk of food production in the west is done on an industrial scale with individual farms the size of small countries, not quite the small farm that people had 50 years ago. Enough of the agricultural lesson. The point is the agri-corps are looking for a new way to make money so they make the fuel and get the government to help keep the cost down.

Now, to an extend I support ethanol (I think NASCAR should implement a rule saying that the teams have to grow their own fuel, pure ethanol = pure moonshine). It will help you become more energy independant. Canada has the odd situation where we sell you oil, but we also import it from the middle east as well. I have yet to hear a sensible explanation of that! Anyhoo. The total emissions will be reduced by using E85, just not eliminated as some supporters say.
__________________
Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them
__________________
don't believe a thing you read about the next gen Camaro -- as history has proven time and time again:

WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT FUTURE PRODUCT PLANS PERIOD FbodFather
__________________

Camaro5 Fest sub-forum
DGthe3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 11:10 AM   #9
TAG UR IT
www.Camaro5store.com
 
TAG UR IT's Avatar
 
Drives: THRSS #2 / CGM#1
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SA, Texas
Posts: 25,925
I still say a hybrid is the way to go. A gasoline eating, E85 capable, bundle of electricity.
__________________
The build of THRSS #2
TAG UR IT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 12:05 PM   #10
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Camaro 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 25,754
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
"bundle of electricity"...I like that,
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Before You Post.
SIGN UP for 2014 Camaro5 HPDE @ Gingerman Raceway!
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 12:53 PM   #11
KILLER74Z28
MOD SQUAD
 
KILLER74Z28's Avatar
 
Drives: 2G1FT1EW9A9100666
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Michigan
Posts: 5,609
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAG UR IT View Post
I still say a hybrid is the way to go. A gasoline eating, E85 capable, bundle of electricity.
__________________

Who cares about the Blue Oval crowd and their little Ponys? We're getting our Camaro back-and it'll be Supercharged!-MDAII
Team LS3
KILLER74Z28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 12:54 PM   #12
KILLER74Z28
MOD SQUAD
 
KILLER74Z28's Avatar
 
Drives: 2G1FT1EW9A9100666
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: West Michigan
Posts: 5,609
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGthe3 View Post
The energy input to biofuels isn't that high and it depends on the type. but typically it is about 50% more to make a 'green' fuel. Its like getting out of debt by taking a loan. It solves the problem at the moment but just makes it worse for later on

As for where the push for biofuels, much of it comes from agriculture lobbiests saying that the poor farmer can't get by anymore. Before anyone picks on me for this 5/7 of my uncles are farmers. They seem to be doing fine. On top of that, the bulk of food production in the west is done on an industrial scale with individual farms the size of small countries, not quite the small farm that people had 50 years ago. Enough of the agricultural lesson. The point is the agri-corps are looking for a new way to make money so they make the fuel and get the government to help keep the cost down.

Now, to an extend I support ethanol (I think NASCAR should implement a rule saying that the teams have to grow their own fuel, pure ethanol = pure moonshine). It will help you become more energy independant. Canada has the odd situation where we sell you oil, but we also import it from the middle east as well. I have yet to hear a sensible explanation of that! Anyhoo. The total emissions will be reduced by using E85, just not eliminated as some supporters say.
Right, then it drive the cost of corn up for all consumers...
__________________

Who cares about the Blue Oval crowd and their little Ponys? We're getting our Camaro back-and it'll be Supercharged!-MDAII
Team LS3
KILLER74Z28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 01:12 PM   #13
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Camaro 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 25,754
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
What about Cellulosic Ethanol? the basic idea, is to use left over products, like corn stalks and leaves, for example.

According to Wiki, and I know, it's wiki but whereas current ethanol production, and usage as a whole only reduces emissions by 18%, cellulosic ethanol, and burning reduces emissions by near 80%
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Before You Post.
SIGN UP for 2014 Camaro5 HPDE @ Gingerman Raceway!
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 03:13 PM   #14
DGthe3
Moderator.ca
 
DGthe3's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Grand Am GT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Niagara, Canada
Posts: 21,722
Send a message via MSN to DGthe3
Cellulose ethanol is a great idea. Its practically waste already. I think its doesn't have nearly the same yeild as sugar does. But its 'free' so that doesn't really matter
__________________
Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them
__________________
don't believe a thing you read about the next gen Camaro -- as history has proven time and time again:

WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT FUTURE PRODUCT PLANS PERIOD FbodFather
__________________

Camaro5 Fest sub-forum
DGthe3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 03:37 PM   #15
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Camaro 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 25,754
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
Supposedly, Some Chinese company and a Canadian Company are doing a 50/50 split in a new company, and are gonna be producing "true commercial" amounts of Cellulosic Ethanol...

I don't know about you all...but I'd rather buy from Canada than the Middle East right now....
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Before You Post.
SIGN UP for 2014 Camaro5 HPDE @ Gingerman Raceway!
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 03:59 PM   #16
DGthe3
Moderator.ca
 
DGthe3's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Grand Am GT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Niagara, Canada
Posts: 21,722
Send a message via MSN to DGthe3
We are happy to sell it. But I don't know why we still have to buy it from the middle east. Our economics prof told us at one point why we both buy and sell oil, but I didn't really understand. And for ethanol, well I dont think that the Iranians or Saudis could really compete with Canada for ethanol production.
__________________
Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them
__________________
don't believe a thing you read about the next gen Camaro -- as history has proven time and time again:

WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT FUTURE PRODUCT PLANS PERIOD FbodFather
__________________

Camaro5 Fest sub-forum
DGthe3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2007, 05:01 PM   #17
The_Stache
SoCal Race Team #13
 
The_Stache's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS:RS:LS3:SW
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 1,697
Quote:
Cellulose ethanol
While a great idea.. its yet to be put into production, the technology isnt here for it yet. It cant be produced on a large scale yet (est another 5-10 years from the EPA to get it done).

There is no single solution.

E85 while great.. isn't a complete solution as it still gives off emissions and gives less mileage per gallon and still isn't widely available (as of summer 07 only about 1200 E85 stations nation wide)

Pure electric while great.. is expensive and the tech is still developing but for the next 5 years is still out of the price range of the normal consumer (GM and toyota are fiercly battling this out right now)

Hybrids are inefficient becuase your hauling 2 drive trains and have all of the problems of the above only mixed together

Hydrogen while great for emissions is technologically expensive.. its feasible but VERY expensive and also has its hazards like gasoline.

Personaly I think Pure electrics are the way to go.. we can convert powerplants the world round to steam plants run off tgeothermal energy(aka hydro electric plants) to create electricity.. and boom its free.

But what do I know I'm just a normal consumer with a college education.
__________________
A.K.A - Diarmadhi (old handle) - So much to do.. So little money
Owner : Fast-Stache Industries LLC
The_Stache is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-18-2007, 12:57 AM   #18
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Camaro 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 25,754
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
All the expense attributed to these things, all of them. Will come down. Just like anything new, it's gonna be expensive.

But I agree with your "normal consumer with a college education" reasoning

Unfortunately, over the past 5 years the world has suddenly "warmed up"...and whether we actually are 'too late' or whatever remains to be seen. But the effects are that people in general want an instant, overnight solution

It's very hard to provide that, hence E85(or even E100, some developers are working on that now), it can be a temporary solution. I mean, even the Volt, though it has the potential, that range-extending motor still needs to run on somthing...and here's the link about that Canada company.

Quote:
The first company to solve the problem on a commercial scale is Iogen Energy, located in Ottawa, Canada...the world's first demonstration cellulosic ethanol plant, which is currently turning out on a continual basis more than a million gallons of alcohol "fuel" annually.
and growing......

It's just gonna take time.
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Before You Post.
SIGN UP for 2014 Camaro5 HPDE @ Gingerman Raceway!
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.