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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

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Old 03-04-2012, 09:04 PM   #51
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:53 AM   #52
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SCCA American Iron extreme class allows forced induction. but from my understanding MR is still not allowed. Also you are talking about a vet with more features then an engine. The engine isn't what makes the vette 70k. it's a combination of the light weight materials used engine and other performance options along with all the goodies that you can get in a regular vette. the cost of the LS7 over the LS3 is something like 9k retail. It doesn't cost GM retail to build a crate engine. so what will the real cost be 4-7k difference? big window due to manufacturing costs. but lets to the math using retail pricing

Base 1SS $32,820 (before destination
LS3 (crateenginedepot.com) $6204.00
LS7 from the same place $13,578.00 (note does not include dry sump system)
now subtract the ls7 by the ls3 cost. you get 7374. so now you're looking at a 40k car just with slapping the engine in.

add in an upgraded suspension and maybe some minor weight reduction with out incorporating R&D costs in you can easily see 43-45k for a base Z28. so 47k with R&D added in. because the profit margin is still there from the original SS car you don't need to worry about adding that in.

yes that is assuming a lot about suspension, weight reduction and R&D. but it looks like most of the work is already there. it just need validation.

Now what I would like and what keeps getting proposed by all the other Z28 guys are two different things. I still want a DI v-8, pedders suspension, and race seats. leave the hud on the car but add the feature to see G's.
I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that an LS7 based 5th gen Z28 ISN'T going to be all motor. They will upgrade the fuel system, suspension, drive shaft, axles, differential, and transmission also. All of this will only add to the price that the consumer pays. Of course they'd save some $$$ if they utilize ZL1 components. But in order to make this a usable track car, it's going to have to have a real suspension. Not to mention things like the HUD, rear seat delete option, roll bar, etc...,


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Old 03-05-2012, 09:39 AM   #53
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I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that an LS7 based 5th gen Z28 ISN'T going to be all motor. They will upgrade the fuel system, suspension, drive shaft, axles, differential, and transmission also. All of this will only add to the price that the consumer pays. Of course they'd save some $$$ if they utilize ZL1 components. But in order to make this a usable track car, it's going to have to have a real suspension. Not to mention things like the HUD, rear seat delete option, roll bar, etc...,


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Look, I used retail prices for the engines. GM isn't going to pay retail for their own engines. Also what is their cost to build the SS? it isn't 32,820. Everyone wants to through out how much the LS7 engine costs and that there's no way it will allow the camaro to come in at a mid 40k mark. but the math can add up quickly for a mid 40k car. I assumed 2k for suspension. that's a generous allowance. double adjustable shocks are 1200 GM won't use these.

so lets say it costs GM $31,000 to build a 1SS. add the 7374 to that.

31000 + 7374 = 38,374
suspension + 2,500
ZL1 drivetrain already being used lower cost + 2,000 over stock part
R&D cost per car projected sales + 1,500 (adds up over time. multi car + multi year)

Total 44,374

add in a 3% profit margin 45,705.22


just leaving the car as it sits with out de-contenting it it's sitting at that mid 40's price mark. But lets be honest here. GM's profit margin is greater on the SS then 3%. so in that sense the car would be cheaper to build then 44,374, but cost more than the 46k. My point is it's very possible to see a Z28 in this price bracket. just saying it can't be done means it won't be. Do you think if president Kennedy had said going to the moon was impossible; that we would have? if they want it at 45-49k price tag they will make it so. it's up to GM not you or me.
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:06 AM   #54
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Look, I used retail prices for the engines. GM isn't going to pay retail for their own engines. Also what is their cost to build the SS? it isn't 32,820. Everyone wants to through out how much the LS7 engine costs and that there's no way it will allow the camaro to come in at a mid 40k mark. but the math can add up quickly for a mid 40k car. I assumed 2k for suspension. that's a generous allowance. double adjustable shocks are 1200 GM won't use these.

so lets say it costs GM $31,000 to build a 1SS. add the 7374 to that.

31000 + 7374 = 38,374
suspension + 2,500
ZL1 drivetrain already being used lower cost + 2,000 over stock part
R&D cost per car projected sales + 1,500 (adds up over time. multi car + multi year)

Total 44,374

add in a 3% profit margin 45,705.22


just leaving the car as it sits with out de-contenting it it's sitting at that mid 40's price mark. But lets be honest here. GM's profit margin is greater on the SS then 3%. so in that sense the car would be cheaper to build then 44,374, but cost more than the 46k. My point is it's very possible to see a Z28 in this price bracket. just saying it can't be done means it won't be. Do you think if president Kennedy had said going to the moon was impossible; that we would have? if they want it at 45-49k price tag they will make it so. it's up to GM not you or me.
...I agree with you, the mid 40's range is doable for the reasons you specified and also by Lowdown and others here previously. However, IMHO as it has been previously suggested it's a marketing and timing issue due to advent of the ZL1 that will dictate if and when it returns more than a pricing and/or affordability issue. I would like to see it now in the form as described and discussed on the Z-28 board here. I would buy it over the ZL1 in a heartbeat <Chevy, Heartbeat of America>.
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:26 PM   #55
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...I agree with you, the mid 40's range is doable for the reasons you specified and also by Lowdown and others here previously. However, IMHO as it has been previously suggested it's a marketing and timing issue due to advent of the ZL1 that will dictate if and when it returns more than a pricing and/or affordability issue. I would like to see it now in the form as described and discussed on the Z-28 board here. I would buy it over the ZL1 in a heartbeat <Chevy, Heartbeat of America>.
CORRECT!! We have discussed this a bunch of times and I don't care how you add it up, a mid 40k LS7 Z/28 should easily be doable provided GM/Chevy has the willingness to do it. And yet the naysayers keeping dropping in here to explain to us how and why it cannot be done, oh ye of little faith. I've said it a bunch of times as you just did, the ZL1 is an awesome vehicle, it's just not the awesome vehicle for me. An LS7 Z/28 would be the awesome vehicle that would best meet my wants/needs.
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:49 PM   #56
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CORRECT!! We have discussed this a bunch of times and I don't care how you add it up, a mid 40k LS7 Z/28 should easily be doable provided GM/Chevy has the willingness to do it. And yet the naysayers keeping dropping in here to explain to us how and why it cannot be done, oh ye of little faith. I've said it a bunch of times as you just did, the ZL1 is an awesome vehicle, it's just not the awesome vehicle for me. An LS7 Z/28 would be the awesome vehicle that would best meet my wants/needs.
Clyde
I gotta admit that I have been one to think that a mid 40k priced LS7 Z28 would be all but impossible to produce. One thing that has changed my thinking was looking at the specs of the LS7 concept. The transmission is "just" a TR6060. Maybe GM feels it is up to the task and that should save a good chunk of change. GM is in the business of exceeding expectations and no one four years ago could have predicted the awesome lineup that we currently have. An LS7 Z28 like many have described would definitely knock it out of the park. I would be happy with any of the current available V-8s just as long as they build the dang thing and put as much effort into the Z28 as they have with ZL1.
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Old 03-05-2012, 04:51 PM   #57
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Re: Plea for a ZEE...

I used to think we needed an LS7 to out-manhandle a certain LS-badged "supervisor" (along with enhanced FE4 and aaaaall the "good stuff" from the then-proposed ZL1...brakes/HD driveline/rolling-stock).

However...

The recently confirmed track times from VIR for the ZL1 vs. previous times for the Shelby (a very significant difference!) has me thinking that with a 3.73 gear, fronted by the MG9 and supported by the HD ZL1 diff/brakes/rolling-stock and topped with a Ram Air/extractor hood and Dual Mode exhaust, maybe...just maybe...the LS3 will do...

I'm beginning to think the ZL1 "system" (minus LSA) is just that good...and I'd be very surprized if The Team doesn't already know the actual answer to this "dilemma"...

And IF the LS3 will "cut the mustard", then just think what the same "hugger" would do with the gen-oo-wine forty-fied ELLIS-HEAVEN!!

Heavenly...
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:28 PM   #58
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CORRECT!! We have discussed this a bunch of times and I don't care how you add it up, a mid 40k LS7 Z/28 should easily be doable provided GM/Chevy has the willingness to do it. And yet the naysayers keeping dropping in here to explain to us how and why it cannot be done, oh ye of little faith. I've said it a bunch of times as you just did, the ZL1 is an awesome vehicle, it's just not the awesome vehicle for me. An LS7 Z/28 would be the awesome vehicle that would best meet my wants/needs.
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I could not have said it better!
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Old 03-10-2012, 08:57 PM   #59
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Let us ponder for a minute..... IF the ZL1 end's up being a "extended" delay for some reason what would that do to our chance of having a 5th Gen Z/28? Any ideas?
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Old 03-10-2012, 11:09 PM   #60
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Let us ponder for a minute..... IF the ZL1 end's up being a "extended" delay for some reason what would that do to our chance of having a 5th Gen Z/28? Any ideas?
Less than slim? I think our only hope is the 1LE for now. For me it will do.
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Old 03-11-2012, 05:12 AM   #61
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Not everyone enjoys being blown...ALL the time...

Some of us do! I have to disagree with you guys.The ZL1 is the KING of Camaros ,why would i want the Prince? (Z28).
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:05 AM   #62
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I think the 1LE would be good enough. Sure, closer to 500hp would be nice but it's pretty easy to get that from an LS3 in the aftermarket. I really want the other goodies from the ZL1- suspension, brakes, cooling equipment, wheels, etc.
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Old 03-11-2012, 01:08 PM   #63
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I think the 1LE would be good enough. Sure, closer to 500hp would be nice but it's pretty easy to get that from an LS3 in the aftermarket. I really want the other goodies from the ZL1- suspension, brakes, cooling equipment, wheels, etc.
I could "live" with the 1LE as presented, but I'd really rather not have to "live with" anything, I'd rather it be an awesome package from the factory to keep modifications that I have to do to a minimum.
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:24 PM   #64
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I think the 1LE would be good enough. Sure, closer to 500hp would be nice but it's pretty easy to get that from an LS3 in the aftermarket. I really want the other goodies from the ZL1- suspension, brakes, cooling equipment, wheels, etc.
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:30 PM   #65
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I could "live" with the 1LE as presented, but I'd really rather not have to "live with" anything, I'd rather it be an awesome package from the factory to keep modifications that I have to do to a minimum.
Clyde
I agree with you more power is fun, but how much would that cost?

For $2,500 (and maybe as little as $1,500) with bolt-ons you can push the LS3 to almost 500 at the crank. Then if you ever sell the car you can swap the stock stuff back in and sell those parts for about half of what you paid.
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:02 PM   #66
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I agree with you more power is fun, but how much would that cost?

For $2,500 (and maybe as little as $1,500) with bolt-ons you can push the LS3 to almost 500 at the crank. Then if you ever sell the car you can swap the stock stuff back in and sell those parts for about half of what you paid.
Your statement makes perfect sense and 20 years ago, even ten years ago I'd go for it. In the present, I don't want to spend any more time under the hood and under the car than I have to, I'm already at my limits of how many ibuprofen I can take a day and how many hours I can spend in the jaccuzzi without looking like a complete prune. Ah the beauty of old age and retirement..........NOT!! I still spend eight hours or so a day as a carpenter in the construction industry, I get off work, swallow more pills and head home for the jaccuzzi, it takes most of the weekend to recuperate enough to be ready for the following week. Automotive repairs or modifications that used to be real easy require way too much effort now and way too long time wise. Actually I get around pretty well for my age (and a lot better than some of the party animals that work with me and are 20 years younger), I just have to face the facts that things take longer for me to do now and I always get less done in a days time than I plan on.
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Old 03-12-2012, 10:00 AM   #67
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Does the LS-7 come with forged pistons/internals? Nevermind...looked it up: Forged crank, cast pistons.

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Old 03-12-2012, 11:54 AM   #68
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Some of us do! I have to disagree with you guys.The ZL1 is the KING of Camaros ,why would i want the Prince? (Z28).
You wouldn't. I would.
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:55 AM   #69
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Ahhhhh, let the compromising begin...
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Old 03-12-2012, 11:57 AM   #70
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Your statement makes perfect sense and 20 years ago, even ten years ago I'd go for it. In the present, I don't want to spend any more time under the hood and under the car than I have to, I'm already at my limits of how many ibuprofen I can take a day and how many hours I can spend in the jaccuzzi without looking like a complete prune. Ah the beauty of old age and retirement..........NOT!! I still spend eight hours or so a day as a carpenter in the construction industry, I get off work, swallow more pills and head home for the jaccuzzi, it takes most of the weekend to recuperate enough to be ready for the following week. Automotive repairs or modifications that used to be real easy require way too much effort now and way too long time wise. Actually I get around pretty well for my age (and a lot better than some of the party animals that work with me and are 20 years younger), I just have to face the facts that things take longer for me to do now and I always get less done in a days time than I plan on.
Clyde
Yes I prefer not to tinker as well. Maybe wheels and tires...
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Old 03-12-2012, 04:31 PM   #71
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Some of us do! I have to disagree with you guys.The ZL1 is the KING of Camaros ,why would i want the Prince? (Z28).
Pappa, I'm happy you're getting a ZL1. I have one coming that I have a ready buyer for. He's South, and when I've done a proper "break-in", and he returns, off it'll go...

How many GT 500 folk paid a premium to own Mustang's version of "KING"...only to find out in certain environments, it ISN'T...because the BOSS is Boss...?!

I'd hate to think a 200lb lighter LS7'd ZEE would roast a ZL1 "in certain environments"...and, more importantly, so do you and a whole bunch of ZL1/modded SS owners...

There'll be "peace in the valley"...until THAT day arrives...
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Old 03-13-2012, 11:22 AM   #72
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Your statement makes perfect sense and 20 years ago, even ten years ago I'd go for it. In the present, I don't want to spend any more time under the hood and under the car than I have to, I'm already at my limits of how many ibuprofen I can take a day and how many hours I can spend in the jaccuzzi without looking like a complete prune. Ah the beauty of old age and retirement..........NOT!! I still spend eight hours or so a day as a carpenter in the construction industry, I get off work, swallow more pills and head home for the jaccuzzi, it takes most of the weekend to recuperate enough to be ready for the following week. Automotive repairs or modifications that used to be real easy require way too much effort now and way too long time wise. Actually I get around pretty well for my age (and a lot better than some of the party animals that work with me and are 20 years younger), I just have to face the facts that things take longer for me to do now and I always get less done in a days time than I plan on.
Clyde
....LOL Cyde, they only real difference between us is that you have a Jaccuzzi (which you mentioned TWICE in your post you lucky dog)...
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Yes I prefer not to tinker as well. Maybe wheels and tires...
.....my mind is tinkering away with thoughts of cylinder heads, valve trains, camshafts, intake manifolds, throttle bodies etc...etc..and other technical mechanical goodies on and on and on, but my body says, ...fughedaboutit....
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Old 03-13-2012, 12:00 PM   #73
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I seriously agree that Z28 should be brought back. I believe, like ZL1, that it should be nothing but functional. If Team CAMARO changes the hood from the functional ZL1-style, it should provide downforce - not just be an open vent or asthetic. I think a lot of what is in ZL1 should come over to Z28, minus LSA. It should definately be a V8, and I think a Wixom 6.2 would be great - it would be nice to offer LS7 in it, but... yeah (well - they see fit to jamb it into the CE 'Vert)... maybe a little baby cam to pump the power up another 10%; that may not be too hard. It definately needs to blow the Supervisor out of the water, and should probably keep the TR6060 from SS and SS's rear, but maybe with some 3.73s. No slushbox. I really like the 1LE option-idea. I really don't see GM eliminating radios or AC, but maybe a rear seat-delete. STB from ZL1 or the 'Vert and we're good.

JMVHO.
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Old 03-19-2012, 10:48 AM   #74
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Heres an article on a vairety of camshafts and their effects one could expect to see up and down the scale. After all, for starters, it's a camshaft the LS3 seriously needs...

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...n/viewall.html

The next article is a bit dated, but shows real world numbers when swapping out the stock LS3 cam for a streetable upgrade. The numbers are for just the cam swap alone...imagine if one were to upgrade the intake plenum, throttle body, and MAF to compatible range around 102 MM's, increase the injector volume, and use tuned exhaust manifolds (round tube)....

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...ral/index.html
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Old 03-20-2012, 08:55 PM   #75
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What's the fascination with the Z? It's just a Camaro with different options and badging. Just make a nice Camaro and call it a ... Camaro..
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