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Old 03-03-2012, 11:07 PM   #43
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GM I will gladly give my first born son for a Z28. I know I know I don't have one yet but when I do. . .
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We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name.
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Old 03-04-2012, 12:40 AM   #44
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I still don't know how anyone expects a Camaro with an LS7 to be cost effective. The Z06 is 70k +! And you want GM to basically take it in the shorts by putting an LS7 in a 5th gen chassis.......and then sell it for $45,000-$50,000? I seriously doubt that is gonna happen. And then what's left for engine choices? LSA? Already been done. That leaves the LS3. Now we have to take a 5th gen with an LS3 and then make it perform the same or better on a track that a boss 302 does! That's gonna be a tall order. Tweaking the suspension is not going to turn an LS3 5th gen into a capable track car that can compete on any level with a boss 302. I mean that is the point of creating a Z28 right? It's a track car? In many racing classes, MR and forced induction are not allowed. So you just threw out the Camaros two main methods of gaining an advantage on the track. So after all that, what are we left with for a Z28? I just don't see it happening unless the camaro sheds some weight or a cheaper more cost effective NA engine gets developed. I also don't see that happening in this goaround. I will be shocked if GM releases a 5th gen with an LS7 that is priced between 40-50,000k.




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Old 03-04-2012, 07:33 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monstertodd View Post
I still don't know how anyone expects a Camaro with an LS7 to be cost effective. The Z06 is 70k +! And you want GM to basically take it in the shorts by putting an LS7 in a 5th gen chassis.......and then sell it for $45,000-$50,000? I seriously doubt that is gonna happen. And then what's left for engine choices? LSA? Already been done. That leaves the LS3. Now we have to take a 5th gen with an LS3 and then make it perform the same or better on a track that a boss 302 does! That's gonna be a tall order. Tweaking the suspension is not going to turn an LS3 5th gen into a capable track car that can compete on any level with a boss 302. I mean that is the point of creating a Z28 right? It's a track car? In many racing classes, MR and forced induction are not allowed. So you just threw out the Camaros two main methods of gaining an advantage on the track. So after all that, what are we left with for a Z28? I just don't see it happening unless the camaro sheds some weight or a cheaper more cost effective NA engine gets developed. I also don't see that happening in this goaround. I will be shocked if GM releases a 5th gen with an LS7 that is priced between 40-50,000k.




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The thing is, we really have no idea what they are going to do or not do. I would love to see a Z/28 with the 5th gen body, but they may wait until the 6th gen Camaro which should be much lighter on the Alpha chassis. All we can do in the meantime is offer our suggestions, wait, then wait some more, beg plead, whine, then wait some more. In the end, GM/Chevy will do what they want to do when they want to do it! And if they wait too long I may not be around to buy one (even though it's on my bucket list).
Clyde
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Old 03-04-2012, 12:45 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monstertodd View Post
I still don't know how anyone expects a Camaro with an LS7 to be cost effective. The Z06 is 70k +! And you want GM to basically take it in the shorts by putting an LS7 in a 5th gen chassis.......and then sell it for $45,000-$50,000? I seriously doubt that is gonna happen. And then what's left for engine choices? LSA? Already been done. That leaves the LS3. Now we have to take a 5th gen with an LS3 and then make it perform the same or better on a track that a boss 302 does! That's gonna be a tall order. Tweaking the suspension is not going to turn an LS3 5th gen into a capable track car that can compete on any level with a boss 302. I mean that is the point of creating a Z28 right? It's a track car? In many racing classes, MR and forced induction are not allowed. So you just threw out the Camaros two main methods of gaining an advantage on the track. So after all that, what are we left with for a Z28? I just don't see it happening unless the camaro sheds some weight or a cheaper more cost effective NA engine gets developed. I also don't see that happening in this goaround. I will be shocked if GM releases a 5th gen with an LS7 that is priced between 40-50,000k.




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SCCA American Iron extreme class allows forced induction. but from my understanding MR is still not allowed. Also you are talking about a vet with more features then an engine. The engine isn't what makes the vette 70k. it's a combination of the light weight materials used engine and other performance options along with all the goodies that you can get in a regular vette. the cost of the LS7 over the LS3 is something like 9k retail. It doesn't cost GM retail to build a crate engine. so what will the real cost be 4-7k difference? big window due to manufacturing costs. but lets to the math using retail pricing

Base 1SS $32,820 (before destination
LS3 (crateenginedepot.com) $6204.00
LS7 from the same place $13,578.00 (note does not include dry sump system)
now subtract the ls7 by the ls3 cost. you get 7374. so now you're looking at a 40k car just with slapping the engine in.

add in an upgraded suspension and maybe some minor weight reduction with out incorporating R&D costs in you can easily see 43-45k for a base Z28. so 47k with R&D added in. because the profit margin is still there from the original SS car you don't need to worry about adding that in.

yes that is assuming a lot about suspension, weight reduction and R&D. but it looks like most of the work is already there. it just need validation.

Now what I would like and what keeps getting proposed by all the other Z28 guys are two different things. I still want a DI v-8, pedders suspension, and race seats. leave the hud on the car but add the feature to see G's.
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We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name.
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Old 03-04-2012, 12:51 PM   #47
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Let's boil it down further, so that even an abacus can cypher it...

LSA = LS7, crate 'n all

Delete certain things from the ZL1, and you end up with a lower price point...

No Duracells required...
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Old 03-04-2012, 01:34 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monstertodd View Post
I still don't know how anyone expects a Camaro with an LS7 to be cost effective. The Z06 is 70k +! And you want GM to basically take it in the shorts by putting an LS7 in a 5th gen chassis.......and then sell it for $45,000-$50,000? I seriously doubt that is gonna happen. And then what's left for engine choices? LSA? Already been done. That leaves the LS3. Now we have to take a 5th gen with an LS3 and then make it perform the same or better on a track that a boss 302 does! That's gonna be a tall order. Tweaking the suspension is not going to turn an LS3 5th gen into a capable track car that can compete on any level with a boss 302. I mean that is the point of creating a Z28 right? It's a track car? In many racing classes, MR and forced induction are not allowed. So you just threw out the Camaros two main methods of gaining an advantage on the track. So after all that, what are we left with for a Z28? I just don't see it happening unless the camaro sheds some weight or a cheaper more cost effective NA engine gets developed. I also don't see that happening in this goaround. I will be shocked if GM releases a 5th gen with an LS7 that is priced between 40-50,000k.




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The HUGE price jump in the Z06 over the base Vette is the suspension, frame and chassis. A lot of exotic stuff in a Z06.
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Old 03-04-2012, 07:31 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing View Post
SCCA American Iron extreme class allows forced induction. but from my understanding MR is still not allowed.
Which SCCA vehicle class is that?

I've got the latest & greatest rulebook handy, I can reference it...
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Old 03-04-2012, 08:31 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
Which SCCA vehicle class is that?

I've got the latest & greatest rulebook handy, I can reference it...
I'm sorry I'm mistaken. it's NASA that has that series http://www.nasaponycars.com/ they also do camaro and mustang challenge. but when I was looking at getting into the series they accepted SCCA licenses. that might be where I got that SCCA from.
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We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name.
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Old 03-04-2012, 09:04 PM   #51
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Gotcha. Aw well.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:53 AM   #52
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Quote:
SCCA American Iron extreme class allows forced induction. but from my understanding MR is still not allowed. Also you are talking about a vet with more features then an engine. The engine isn't what makes the vette 70k. it's a combination of the light weight materials used engine and other performance options along with all the goodies that you can get in a regular vette. the cost of the LS7 over the LS3 is something like 9k retail. It doesn't cost GM retail to build a crate engine. so what will the real cost be 4-7k difference? big window due to manufacturing costs. but lets to the math using retail pricing

Base 1SS $32,820 (before destination
LS3 (crateenginedepot.com) $6204.00
LS7 from the same place $13,578.00 (note does not include dry sump system)
now subtract the ls7 by the ls3 cost. you get 7374. so now you're looking at a 40k car just with slapping the engine in.

add in an upgraded suspension and maybe some minor weight reduction with out incorporating R&D costs in you can easily see 43-45k for a base Z28. so 47k with R&D added in. because the profit margin is still there from the original SS car you don't need to worry about adding that in.

yes that is assuming a lot about suspension, weight reduction and R&D. but it looks like most of the work is already there. it just need validation.

Now what I would like and what keeps getting proposed by all the other Z28 guys are two different things. I still want a DI v-8, pedders suspension, and race seats. leave the hud on the car but add the feature to see G's.
I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that an LS7 based 5th gen Z28 ISN'T going to be all motor. They will upgrade the fuel system, suspension, drive shaft, axles, differential, and transmission also. All of this will only add to the price that the consumer pays. Of course they'd save some $$$ if they utilize ZL1 components. But in order to make this a usable track car, it's going to have to have a real suspension. Not to mention things like the HUD, rear seat delete option, roll bar, etc...,


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Old 03-05-2012, 09:39 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monstertodd View Post
I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that an LS7 based 5th gen Z28 ISN'T going to be all motor. They will upgrade the fuel system, suspension, drive shaft, axles, differential, and transmission also. All of this will only add to the price that the consumer pays. Of course they'd save some $$$ if they utilize ZL1 components. But in order to make this a usable track car, it's going to have to have a real suspension. Not to mention things like the HUD, rear seat delete option, roll bar, etc...,


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Look, I used retail prices for the engines. GM isn't going to pay retail for their own engines. Also what is their cost to build the SS? it isn't 32,820. Everyone wants to through out how much the LS7 engine costs and that there's no way it will allow the camaro to come in at a mid 40k mark. but the math can add up quickly for a mid 40k car. I assumed 2k for suspension. that's a generous allowance. double adjustable shocks are 1200 GM won't use these.

so lets say it costs GM $31,000 to build a 1SS. add the 7374 to that.

31000 + 7374 = 38,374
suspension + 2,500
ZL1 drivetrain already being used lower cost + 2,000 over stock part
R&D cost per car projected sales + 1,500 (adds up over time. multi car + multi year)

Total 44,374

add in a 3% profit margin 45,705.22


just leaving the car as it sits with out de-contenting it it's sitting at that mid 40's price mark. But lets be honest here. GM's profit margin is greater on the SS then 3%. so in that sense the car would be cheaper to build then 44,374, but cost more than the 46k. My point is it's very possible to see a Z28 in this price bracket. just saying it can't be done means it won't be. Do you think if president Kennedy had said going to the moon was impossible; that we would have? if they want it at 45-49k price tag they will make it so. it's up to GM not you or me.
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:06 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing View Post
Look, I used retail prices for the engines. GM isn't going to pay retail for their own engines. Also what is their cost to build the SS? it isn't 32,820. Everyone wants to through out how much the LS7 engine costs and that there's no way it will allow the camaro to come in at a mid 40k mark. but the math can add up quickly for a mid 40k car. I assumed 2k for suspension. that's a generous allowance. double adjustable shocks are 1200 GM won't use these.

so lets say it costs GM $31,000 to build a 1SS. add the 7374 to that.

31000 + 7374 = 38,374
suspension + 2,500
ZL1 drivetrain already being used lower cost + 2,000 over stock part
R&D cost per car projected sales + 1,500 (adds up over time. multi car + multi year)

Total 44,374

add in a 3% profit margin 45,705.22


just leaving the car as it sits with out de-contenting it it's sitting at that mid 40's price mark. But lets be honest here. GM's profit margin is greater on the SS then 3%. so in that sense the car would be cheaper to build then 44,374, but cost more than the 46k. My point is it's very possible to see a Z28 in this price bracket. just saying it can't be done means it won't be. Do you think if president Kennedy had said going to the moon was impossible; that we would have? if they want it at 45-49k price tag they will make it so. it's up to GM not you or me.
...I agree with you, the mid 40's range is doable for the reasons you specified and also by Lowdown and others here previously. However, IMHO as it has been previously suggested it's a marketing and timing issue due to advent of the ZL1 that will dictate if and when it returns more than a pricing and/or affordability issue. I would like to see it now in the form as described and discussed on the Z-28 board here. I would buy it over the ZL1 in a heartbeat <Chevy, Heartbeat of America>.
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:26 PM   #55
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...I agree with you, the mid 40's range is doable for the reasons you specified and also by Lowdown and others here previously. However, IMHO as it has been previously suggested it's a marketing and timing issue due to advent of the ZL1 that will dictate if and when it returns more than a pricing and/or affordability issue. I would like to see it now in the form as described and discussed on the Z-28 board here. I would buy it over the ZL1 in a heartbeat <Chevy, Heartbeat of America>.
CORRECT!! We have discussed this a bunch of times and I don't care how you add it up, a mid 40k LS7 Z/28 should easily be doable provided GM/Chevy has the willingness to do it. And yet the naysayers keeping dropping in here to explain to us how and why it cannot be done, oh ye of little faith. I've said it a bunch of times as you just did, the ZL1 is an awesome vehicle, it's just not the awesome vehicle for me. An LS7 Z/28 would be the awesome vehicle that would best meet my wants/needs.
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:49 PM   #56
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CORRECT!! We have discussed this a bunch of times and I don't care how you add it up, a mid 40k LS7 Z/28 should easily be doable provided GM/Chevy has the willingness to do it. And yet the naysayers keeping dropping in here to explain to us how and why it cannot be done, oh ye of little faith. I've said it a bunch of times as you just did, the ZL1 is an awesome vehicle, it's just not the awesome vehicle for me. An LS7 Z/28 would be the awesome vehicle that would best meet my wants/needs.
Clyde
I gotta admit that I have been one to think that a mid 40k priced LS7 Z28 would be all but impossible to produce. One thing that has changed my thinking was looking at the specs of the LS7 concept. The transmission is "just" a TR6060. Maybe GM feels it is up to the task and that should save a good chunk of change. GM is in the business of exceeding expectations and no one four years ago could have predicted the awesome lineup that we currently have. An LS7 Z28 like many have described would definitely knock it out of the park. I would be happy with any of the current available V-8s just as long as they build the dang thing and put as much effort into the Z28 as they have with ZL1.
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