Camaro Air Bag Sensor Problem (reads off when passenger is present)

[ambientweather]

I wanted to thank you for all of the advice. I filed with BBB and NTSB. I filed a formal complaint with GM corporate.
I have contacted a local TV station (it helps that I know the producer there). They have a great consumer team.
I am trying to get contact information at GM for Shane Schmitt. He apparently is a GM certified mechanic. He is the one that shut the door and stated is the "vehicle is functioning as designed" and shut down my initial complaint with GM.

This will help personalize it when they put it on air. Here is my letter to GM, which explains it all:

GM
PO Box 33170
Detroit, MI 48232-5170
Re: Case 71-1021462536

Greetings:

I wish to file a formal complaint regarding my 2011 Camaro 2SS/RS Convertible. The safety critical passenger Air Bag (inflatable restraint) does not work properly and reads OFF when a passenger in excess of 160 lbs is in the passenger seat.

This problem is intermittent, about 50% of the time, but reproducible. It has been acknowledged and reproduced on multiple occasions by certified GM mechanics at Freeway Chevrolet in Chandler, Arizona, with multiple employees of Freeway Chevrolet of varying weights in the passenger seat.
The dealership acknowledges that there is a problem, has attempted to fix it on multiple times, but has received little guidance from GM.

I have summarized the repair attempts below:

1. Module replacement
2. Sensor and module replacement
3. Sensor replacement
4. Reprogram module. Service rep able to reproduce problem on this car but no other identical models with multiple passengers and weights.
5. Reproduced connected to ODBC interface at Freeway Chevrolet with 160 lb passenger in car (my wife). Level 4 indicated on ODBC (non adult passenger present). Wife exited and re-entered passenger seat. Level 6 indicated on ODBC.
6. Wife sat in identical car on lot and problem could not be reproduced.
The latest response advised by Shane Schmitt of GM is the vehicle is functioning as designed.


This response is unacceptable because:

1. A 160 lb adult passenger must activate the air bag sensor.
2. The issue is intermittent (about 50% of the time). The same person should not be classified as Level 4 and Level 6 with the seat in the identical position and no change in body position.
3. This intermittent issue could not be reproduced in any other GM vehicle, including an identical model.
4. The problem should not be present with multiple passengers and varying weights.

I expected a much higher level of service from your company, and I am quite disappointed.
I expect this problem to be fixed, or the vehicle replaced. It is irresponsible for GM to not take a life critical feature seriously.

For others with the same problem, I will be launching a Facebook site and I see this is a common problem in this and other forums.

I encourage others with the same issue to file with NTSB:
https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/
I will provide additional information as required.

[95birdible]

If you would like to link it to my Convertible problems page go right ahead. You may want to try shane.schmitt@gm.com I would bet that is his email address

[ambientweather]

Good point, 95birdible. Personally, I think they are making a big mistake by not addressing such a repeatible and safety critical issue.

To state that this car is "operating as designed" is irresponsible and unacceptable.

Shane Schmitt is really playing with fire here. If there is any kind of injury or fatal accident, I have never heard of a more clear cut case.

[ambientweather]

OK, sent Shane the email. No reply yet. I am not surprised.

[95birdible]

If my gathered knowledge of their email system is correct that should be it.

[evlar]

Perhaps you could mention to your producer friend some of the other common issues faced by Gen 5 Camaro Convertible owners - holes in top, breaking bows, leaking water mgmt bags, etc. I'm sure they'd enjoy reporting on this particularly since GM is mum on the issues yet has relied on taxpayer assistance for the past two years. As 95birdble said, show him the facebook page.

[Les7311]

i have the same light problem that appeared 1200 miles new on car....grrrrrr

[Drago77]

Hey- sorry to jump in late...

I've had this sensor issue since day 1. I've had it in several times for this, first Iowa's told it was because my car Washington"Drive" when the passenger got in... that I needed to put it in"Park" first.... then when i told them I had a manual transmission... they told mentor "go check the owners manual".

Next GM brainstorm was that the sensor threshhold was between125-130.... so after several arguments w my wife (passenger ) I've come to the conclusion, that it still doesn't register properly! Lol!

But to further prove the fact, I had a 200 lbs passenger in there, and i photographed him w the airbags light off... crazy.

[HDRDTD]

Dumb question, but if they replace all of the sensor items and the problem remains, why not replace the entire seat?

It's possible that there might be an issue with the seat itself not allowing the sensor to sense properly.

For example, if the sensor is a type of load cell that measures weight and is positioned internaly in the bottom seat cushion, but there is something inside the seat cusion that's interfering with the contact between the cusion and the load cell, the load cell may not read properly all the time.

Take a complete seat assembly from a car on the lot that you have demonstrated works properly and install it in your car. See what happens.

Seems to me it's just common sense troubleshoooting.

[jtfire006]

i do know mine works fine as long as the car is off when the passenger gets in and you then start the car, but if for any reason i park the car and turn it off and the passenger stays in the car, like when getting gas then it reads off when i start it back up. so i turn it off the passenger gets out and gets back in i start it up and its fine agian. i think it has to reset each time the car is off and if your passenger does not get out when you turn it off the sensor in the seat does not reset. my 2 cents

[ambientweather]

Thanks for the input but my issue is different. It can read off under most and very repeatable circumstances. What chaffed my hide is GM corporate, or Shane Schmitt states the air bag is designed not to work. Not all cars, just my car, since this problem could not be reproduced on any other car on the lot.

So, according to his logic, my car was uniquely designed to not deploy the air bag when a full size passenger is present.

My argument is that something in the air bag system is defective, most likely in the harness or connectors since the sensor and controller have been replaced.

I guess we will let bbb decide.

[Rencor]

I have the same sensor issue. Has a life of it's own! Lets keep this thread alive. This is a critical safety feature for very important people in our lives.

[ambientweather]

Originally Posted by Drago77

Hey- sorry to jump in late...

I've had this sensor issue since day 1. I've had it in several times for this, first Iowa's told it was because my car Washington"Drive" when the passenger got in... that I needed to put it in"Park" first.... then when i told them I had a manual transmission... they told mentor "go check the owners manual".

Next GM brainstorm was that the sensor threshhold was between125-130.... so after several arguments w my wife (passenger ) I've come to the conclusion, that it still doesn't register properly! Lol!

But to further prove the fact, I had a 200 lbs passenger in there, and i photographed him w the airbags light off... crazy.

Iowa and Washington? Love that spell check! Ha!

Seriously, it will take an accident and class action lawsuit....

[RollaMo]

Originally Posted by jtfire006

i do know mine works fine as long as the car is off when the passenger gets in and you then start the car, but if for any reason i park the car and turn it off and the passenger stays in the car, like when getting gas then it reads off when i start it back up. so i turn it off the passenger gets out and gets back in i start it up and its fine agian.
i think it has to reset each time the car is off and if your passenger does not get out when you turn it off the sensor in the seat does not reset. my 2 cents

If that is the way your car is behaving, then I would be taking it back to have it looked at.
There is NO WAY the passenger should have to get out of their seat when you shut the car off to buy gas.
Ours sure does not operate that way.

[jtfire006]

only problem with taking it back to the dealer is that it will not work at all then, at least now it works half the time, plus the greasy handprints the new scratches and the other problems that will arise, you would think these people would be trained on these new vehicles when they come out, but most of the service depts act like they know nothing which makes us all cringe just to walk into a dealship. give me the tsb's
i will fix it myself since i follow these threads and now know 10 times as much about the camaro convertible then the idiots that are suppose to be trained on them.

[ambientweather]

I have spoken to several other owners off line with the same issue.

It is amazing that GM blames:

1. Cell phone use
2. Seat position
3. Passenger weight (although my wife weighs 160 lb and reproduced on their ODBCII computer, which classified her as an infant).
4. Passenger position (yes, she is sitting forward with both feet on the ground).
5. How the passenger gets into the car
6. Passenger weight distribution (whatever that means)
7. Entering the passenger seat while the car is in drive (huh?)

WHAT ABOUT THIS ONE... the car has a faulty passenger air bag system?

What is going to happen to Chevy is an accident will occur and no air bag will deploy. A smart attorney will find the thread and associated videos, and they might start taking this more seriously.

[boxmonkeyracing]

As stated in your other thread.

One there is a problem, and it needs to be fixed.

Two calling it a hunk of junk and not driving it because of an Air Bag is ridiculous. remember the 80's? or should we just remove old cars that just have seat belts from the roads? Since they are death traps, in your words. I've had relatives hurt due to air bags. . .

Now As for the actual problem. You say your an Aircraft engineer. I'm sure you know how to use a meter. Since GM isn't "helping" you, help them. It sounds like one of two possible things. Sensor adjustment is off or resistance is high in the harness. This is only going off what I know of Aircraft systems as well. Since I fix Instruments and Flight controls (autopilot mainly) and deal with black boxes.

As was suggested in your other thread. Have you tried a different dealership? Phoenix is a good size city. I'm sure there are multipul dealerships in the area. Maybe their tech/s have no idea what they are doing with air bag sensors.

running this through a news outlet for maybe less than 5 cars is drumming up noise that isn't even needed. If you hate the car this much lemon law it. It's been to the dealership more than 4 times for the same issue and still has yet to be fixed, and you've notified them in writing. AZ law (http://www.carlemon.com/lemon/AZ_law.html) is pretty clear on this. you have 24 months and the car has to have been seen 4 times for the same thing and still not fixed. This car meets all of the above.

[Juan S. V.-L. Ramirez]

how comes
that to me (from the old world, european mainland) at once
Ralph Nader
comes to my mind:
Quote:
Unsafe at Any Speed
history is always repeating itself
even at gm
i cannot believe the way the general is treating the people paying for him, as taxpayers and as customers
maybe you should get an exec from gm and place him in the passangerseat for a crashtest
maybe that will teach them to understand the prob. (i know this is rude, but we are NOT talking about some paint chipping off or something, but about one of the most important life-saving components in your car)

feeling sorry
that this beautiful car is causing you so much trouble

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by Juan S. V.-L. Ramirez

how comes
that to me (from the old world, european mainland) at once
Ralph Nader
comes to my mind:
Quote:
Unsafe at Any Speed
history is always repeating itself
even at gm
i cannot believe the way the general is treating the people paying for him, as taxpayers and as customers
maybe you should get an exec from gm and place him in the passangerseat for a crashtest
maybe that will teach them to understand the prob. (i know this is rude, but we are NOT talking about some paint chipping off or something, but about one of the most important life-saving components in your car)

feeling sorry
that this beautiful car is causing you so much trouble

LOL you're killing me here. I'm sure the exec would walk away from the accident. may have a little more bruising but still walk away. On top of Nader. screw him. He was motivated financially like everyone else.

we are living in a society of people scared of everything.

[Angrybird 12]

Big question, is this problem unique to the convertible? If so look for any other commonalities between cars with the problem. Do all have leather seats? Do all have heated seats? ETC... To properly diagnose the problem you need to narrow down which options the cars with the problems have.

[ambientweather]

I just think when you pay $49k, an important safety feature should work. I don't recall calling it a hunk of junk. Not in my vernacular.

As an aircraft mechanic, would you release an aircraft for flight with a critical fault present?

I mean, before there were digital controllers we flew in analog or mechanical controlled aircraft. They weren't as safe.

However, when my wife gets in the car, I feel a natural response to protect her. I hope you feel the same way about your loved ones and airplane passengers.

If I take the seat apart, it may void my complaint with bbb. Even if I found a high impedance or a faulty connector, they won't fix it. No mechanic will touch anything unless directed by GM.

I do think that accepting sub standard cars is what got GM in trouble in the first. I am coming from Lexus and they resolved everything, no matter the expense.

.

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

As stated in your other thread.

One there is a problem, and it needs to be fixed.

Two calling it a hunk of junk and not driving it because of an Air Bag is ridiculous. remember the 80's? or should we just remove old cars that just have seat belts from the roads? Since they are death traps, in your words. I've had relatives hurt due to air bags. . .

Now As for the actual problem. You say your an Aircraft engineer. I'm sure you know how to use a meter. Since GM isn't "helping" you, help them. It sounds like one of two possible things. Sensor adjustment is off or resistance is high in the harness. This is only going off what I know of Aircraft systems as well. Since I fix Instruments and Flight controls (autopilot mainly) and deal with black boxes.

As was suggested in your other thread. Have you tried a different dealership? Phoenix is a good size city. I'm sure there are multipul dealerships in the area. Maybe their tech/s have no idea what they are doing with air bag sensors.

running this through a news outlet for maybe less than 5 cars is drumming up noise that isn't even needed. If you hate the car this much lemon law it. It's been to the dealership more than 4 times for the same issue and still has yet to be fixed, and you've notified them in writing. AZ law (http://www.carlemon.com/lemon/AZ_law.html) is pretty clear on this. you have 24 months and the car has to have been seen 4 times for the same thing and still not fixed. This car meets all of the above.

[boxmonkeyracing]

Originally Posted by ambientweather

I just think when you pay $49k, an important safety feature should work. I don't recall calling it a hunk of junk. Not in my vernacular.

As an aircraft mechanic, would you release an aircraft for flight with a critical fault present?

I mean, before there were digital controllers we flew in analog or mechanical controlled aircraft. They weren't as safe.

However, when my wife gets in the car, I feel a natural response to protect her. I hope you feel the same way about your loved ones and airplane passengers.

If I take the seat apart, it may void my complaint with bbb. Even if I found a high impedance or a faulty connector, they won't fix it. No mechanic will touch anything unless directed by GM.

I do think that accepting sub standard cars is what got GM in trouble in the first. I am coming from Lexus and they resolved everything, no matter the expense.

.

Originally Posted by ambientweather

Got it, thanks, should have parked it 10 months ago. I will not drive it with a passanger in the car which means it wil sit in my garage, until this bucket of junk is fixed.

I am tired of lame excuses. It is not seat placement. It is not cell phones, It is not how my wife sits. It is the car, it is not me.

I'm sorry not a hunk of junk, but bucket of junk. Same difference.


but your point about as an Aircraft mechanic and critical fault. I'm sorry an Air Bag is not a critical fault. It's like Auto pilot. you can fly the plane with or with out it. I've seen pilots take things I wouldn't take if I was flying the thing. I've also seen them cry about a freaking light that is pulsating even though the system works as advertised and the light will illuminate brightly if a fault occurs. I've also worked C-130E Aircaft. Those are still ANALOG. They are safe! hell that plane was designed in the 40's and still has 50's tech on it. are you telling me that we need to stop flying that aircraft because it doesn't have a digital flight control processor, or flight management bus? how about adding in it doesn't have an embedded GPS/INU. it still uses an old rickety INU and two magnetic compasses, big dial gauges.

point being the system is broken, but to run around scared and not allowing your wife, family or friends to ride with you is kind of ridiculous. What did you do back in the 80's? walk every where? Not all vehicles have Air Bags.

I have not disputed your claim that it needs to be fixed. obviously it does. And having one side of the story doesn't really help me take sides on GM or yours. For all I know you won't allow them to have the car for a couple days. or They are being complete dicks about it at those dealerships you've taken it to. I don't know. We only have your side of the story. I'm sorry you feel GM is doing you wrong. and I have a feeling you won't be a repeat customer for a while. like I said before. if they won't fix it. lemon law it. that simple. you've been to the dealer more than 4 times in the last 12 months for the same issue. The law applies. either that or find a GM tech that will fix it right. it's one of the two. If you keep the car knowing this problem exists then it's your own fault.

I hardly ever go out side of one section on this site, and finally after getting the vert I start looking in here. I start seeing complaint after complaint about stuff. Some of it legit. some of it seems pretty blown out of proportion. and your reaction to not allowing anyone to ride with you is blown out of proportion, IMHO.

Society today runs around scared. sometimes I think all this safety equipment gets us hurt worse. oh I've got air bags and seat belts so I can drive like an idiot.

[Les7311]

Stealership fixed it.

Charge 1.5 hours labor to Chevy, but prob takes 3 hours......wonder what they tore up to make this fix?

[ambientweather]

I heard there is a new tsb?

[ambientweather]

It's been in 4 times for a total of 21 days. Each time it was reproducible up to about 190 lbs.

Maybe this is normal.

Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing

I'm sorry not a hunk of junk, but bucket of junk. Same difference.


but your point about as an Aircraft mechanic and critical fault. I'm sorry an Air Bag is not a critical fault. It's like Auto pilot. you can fly the plane with or with out it. I've seen pilots take things I wouldn't take if I was flying the thing. I've also seen them cry about a freaking light that is pulsating even though the system works as advertised and the light will illuminate brightly if a fault occurs. I've also worked C-130E Aircaft. Those are still ANALOG. They are safe! hell that plane was designed in the 40's and still has 50's tech on it. are you telling me that we need to stop flying that aircraft because it doesn't have a digital flight control processor, or flight management bus? how about adding in it doesn't have an embedded GPS/INU. it still uses an old rickety INU and two magnetic compasses, big dial gauges.

point being the system is broken, but to run around scared and not allowing your wife, family or friends to ride with you is kind of ridiculous. What did you do back in the 80's? walk every where? Not all vehicles have Air Bags.

I have not disputed your claim that it needs to be fixed. obviously it does. And having one side of the story doesn't really help me take sides on GM or yours. For all I know you won't allow them to have the car for a couple days. or They are being complete dicks about it at those dealerships you've taken it to. I don't know. We only have your side of the story. I'm sorry you feel GM is doing you wrong. and I have a feeling you won't be a repeat customer for a while. like I said before. if they won't fix it. lemon law it. that simple. you've been to the dealer more than 4 times in the last 12 months for the same issue. The law applies. either that or find a GM tech that will fix it right. it's one of the two. If you keep the car knowing this problem exists then it's your own fault.

I hardly ever go out side of one section on this site, and finally after getting the vert I start looking in here. I start seeing complaint after complaint about stuff. Some of it legit. some of it seems pretty blown out of proportion. and your reaction to not allowing anyone to ride with you is blown out of proportion, IMHO.

Society today runs around scared. sometimes I think all this safety equipment gets us hurt worse. oh I've got air bags and seat belts so I can drive like an idiot.