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Old 03-11-2012, 07:31 PM   #101
Brianskeet
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Completely off topic, but I really love the stripes on this car. Might just have to copy them when it comes time to have some painted on.
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Old 03-11-2012, 07:42 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by actireman View Post
Trust me, I understand. I have known about the car and the engines for a year now. I have drag raced for 20 years and had a bad #ss Super Stocker. Anybody who class races know there is the horsepower factor in the NHRA and then theres the real hp. I thought you guys would like to know what these are making, if you don't that's fine with me.
And your right, there is no 1100 hp class, I never said that, but there will be super stockers making it. I promise you that.
You saw the "ratings" Dr. Jamie submitted, right? THAT was my point...

Were Hurst-built '68 HemiCudas, or current Cobra Jets delivered with 1,000 hp? NO.

Refinement...over time...

Boost will be controlled (no pun) by NHRA, as it is for Ford.

Again, is it possible to make 1150 hp? Yes indeedie!

Is that what will arrive in the cars? No.

Will that number arrive, at some point, with the 4.0L blower? Yes...

Is "the proof is in the numbers" a valid comment? Again, Yes indeedie!

Your "insider" status is NOT unique...

As mentioned, I've a client who ordered three...one of each...
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Old 03-11-2012, 07:47 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by mikepage0007 View Post
with a fully forged ls7 , built for boost with a 4.0 whipple, not only is 1000hp attainable, but easily surpased...
It's NOT an LS7 with the 4.0L...it's a 5.3...

The LS7 is naturally aspirated, only.
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Old 03-11-2012, 08:05 PM   #104
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Why did your client opt for 3 cars?? His name was drawn 3 times??? Its an option to have one car and get all 3 engines for another 68K on top of the 97K top end package.
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Old 03-12-2012, 08:10 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
You saw the "ratings" Dr. Jamie submitted, right? THAT was my point...

Were Hurst-built '68 HemiCudas, or current Cobra Jets delivered with 1,000 hp? NO.

Refinement...over time...

Boost will be controlled (no pun) by NHRA, as it is for Ford.

Again, is it possible to make 1150 hp? Yes indeedie!

Is that what will arrive in the cars? No.

Will that number arrive, at some point, with the 4.0L blower? Yes...

Is "the proof is in the numbers" a valid comment? Again, Yes indeedie!

Your "insider" status is NOT unique...

As mentioned, I've a client who ordered three...one of each...
I understand what you are saying and you are correct. The numbers I gave are from the engine guys that built them and when they call me they are excited about how much they made. Yes they will be tuned down for the officials at the NHRA, but the engines will make that much hp with very little work. Just like when they called me about the LSA in my ZL1. They where telling me the little things I could do and it would make 100 hp more. They make hp with these and then they set them to what GM and or in the COPO's case what the NHRA wants. Trust me, anything I say comes straight from the horses mouth, it's not here say.
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Old 03-12-2012, 08:55 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06x6spdGTO View Post
Why did your client opt for 3 cars?? His name was drawn 3 times??? Its an option to have one car and get all 3 engines for another 68K on top of the 97K top end package.
+1

How did your client get 3? If these are selected people, and there are only 69 being produced, how can that be? Not doubting you, just asking for info
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:13 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by actireman View Post
I understand what you are saying and you are correct. The numbers I gave are from the engine guys that built them and when they call me they are excited about how much they made. Yes they will be tuned down for the officials at the NHRA, but the engines will make that much hp with very little work. Just like when they called me about the LSA in my ZL1. They [were] telling me the little things I could do and it would make 100 hp more. They make hp with these and then they set them to what GM and or in the COPO's case what the NHRA wants. Trust me, anything I say comes straight from the horses mouth, it's not here say.
They'll be "tuned down" to be BOTH competitive AND reliable. Building 1,000 hp-rated engines, and putting them in 6,000 lb Camaros would be...well, NOT wise...and this IS a very "wise" Program...for Chev AND their dedicated racers.

As mentioned, your "insider" status is NOT unique...but it IS Factual, as to "potential"... And adding 100 hp (at a minimum) is a known fact for CTS-V owners/tuners/modifiers.

As to "who gets what", well...

You won't get three, if you don't ASK. And if you only get one, and want to run all three versions, there IS another "option"...
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:46 AM   #108
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ACTIREMAN and I know each other as friends and racers. What NHRA allows the OEM's to do, both on regular cars and homologated race cars (2012 Camaro COPOs, Ford's Cobra Jets 2008 and up, and Dodge Challenger Drag Packs) is to submit whatever the OEMS want to for shipping weight and ADVERTISED horsepower.

Sometimes they do a good job and submit numbers that are "very" favorable, sometimes not so well. Here's an example of favorable:

Just look at the non-homologated car classifications like the 2007 Ford Shelby GT500. You (or NHRA) think it really weighs 3469#? Per Ford's own published specs, the 2007 GT500 coupe weighed 3920#!

So, it's all a game, and a fun one. I will be class racing again soon, but, the job and family with younger kids has kept me away.

Here's Bob Tasca's (Fuel Funny Car racer) Uncle testing his S/S Super Cobra Jet with a 5.4L with a 4.0L Whipple (factory motor) (was 500hp rating, think it's 589 now). Since it was a private test, AHFS (See below) does not apply. I don't think 7.96 at over 172 is 500'ish hp...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Csow1cNPm_o


Automatic Horsepower Factoring System (AHFS) explained

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The AHFS is used to review and evaluate runs in Stock and Super Stock for possible horsepower adjustments. The review is conducted twice per racing season. The two reviews are compiled individually so the data is not cumulative. Runs included in the AHFS database are limited to final qualifying runs (Q data) and final elimination runs (E data) at NHRA national events only. (At events where class eliminations are run, all runs are included in the AHFS database. Only the first round of class is part of qualifying and therefore is part of the "Q" database.) The "Q" data and "E" data files are the official data gathered by the NHRA timing system and processed through the NHRA Information Technology department. NHRA "Q" data and "E" data are the only data files used for the AHFS.

The first review period includes data from national events 1 through 12 and the second period includes runs from events 13 through 23. The following procedure is used in reviewing run data:

Final qualifying, class eliminations, and elimination runs of 1.15 seconds or more, under the index, at NHRA national events will trigger an automatic review. (The combination must make at least two runs of 1.15 or quicker before a review is triggered to prevent a "one time fast run" from triggering the system.) In reviewing runs of 1.15 or more under the index, the database of runs for the engine combination being reviewed are put through three screenings as listed below. The screenings will look for an overall engine family average or class/engine average faster than 1.00-second under. Runs of .50 and slower are not included in calculating the engine or class/engine averages:


Engine family average: The overall engine average for all cars, regardless of class, running the particular engine combination being reviewed are included in this screening.
Class/engine average where engine is run: The class/engine average of the car running the specific combination in the class that triggered the review is studied.
Body style and transmission type: Also considered in the above two screening processes are body style of the engine combination being reviewed and transmission type. Adjustments are only in effect for the specific car model being evaluated. The body style are generally classified by the OEM auto manufacturers' definition of "platform", i.e., the Camaro and Firebird body are both based on the same platform and therefore considered the same with regard to body-style classification. In some instances, however, more than one body style will trigger a review. With regards to transmission type, if the class average triggers the review, the adjustment would be for classes with the type of transmission triggering the change. However, if an engine family average triggers the review, the adjustment would be for all transmission types.
If either the engine family average or the class/engine average are found to be faster than 1.00-second under, a change will be initiated.

To more clearly illustrate how the AHFS program affects a given combination, the following is a hypothetical evaluation in Stock class for a 305-cubic-inch, 215 factory rated horsepower, fuel-injected Camaro during a review period:

Two K/SA Camaros running this combination ran 1.214- and 1.187- second under the index, triggering a review by the committee. As per the procedure outlined above, the overall engine average is analyzed first. Upon reviewing the engine average made by the 305/215/241 FI combination, 10 runs had been recorded (2 in K/SA and 8 in L/SA) with a total engine average of .945-second under. Because the overall engine average did not hit the required 1.00 under, the combination did not warrant a horsepower adjustment based on overall engine average.

The next step, per the procedure outlined above, is a class/engine review. The class of the car that actually triggered the review was K/SA. The class review revealed that K/SA had a class/engine average for the combination in question of 1.201-second under, therefore surpassing the 1.00-second-under requirement and signaling a horsepower adjustment for all 305/215/241 FI Camaros.

An important element to note and one most often misunderstood by racers is that although a K/SA Camaro affected the change, the L/SA 305/215/241 FI Camaros that run this combination also received a horsepower adjustment. The reason is that a specific combination can run in more than one class based on NHRA rules; therefore, all cars with the specific engine combination, transmission and body style will be affected.

Once the need for an adjustment is determined, the following sliding-scale formula, based on a percentage of horsepower, is used to calculate the horsepower increase:

Under Index Horsepower Increase Index Change
1.150-1.299 1.25% -.05
1.300-1.399 2.25% -.10
1.400-or greater 3.25% -.15
(immediate change)


Adjustments are rounded up to the nearest full horsepower even if the fraction is below 0.5 horsepower. As an example, 2.15 horsepower is rounded to 3 horsepower. The quickest run, by the combination being reviewed, is used to determine the adjustment percentage.

Runs of 1.40 or more under the index will be reviewed and adjusted as soon as such runs were made. Runs at divisional events and National Opens are included in the 1.40-second-or-more-under analysis. This is done to better react to any out-of-line indexes or under-horsepowered combinations. Therefore, at all such events, a 3.25 percent horsepower adjustment or index reduction will be initiated immediately. The decision to adjust horsepower or to reduce the index will be at the discretion of the NHRA Tech Department.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:01 AM   #109
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I find those wheels pretty ugly
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:15 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by RUQWIKR View Post
Just look at the non-homologated car classifications like the 2007 Ford Shelby GT500. You (or NHRA) think it really weighs 3469#? Per Ford's own published specs, the 2007 GT500 coupe weighed 3920#!
...which is the "as-assembled Curb Weight" + NHRA-mandated safety equipment and race-ready mods - NHTSA-unnecessary deletes.

Without resorting to expensive, exotic measures and componentry, the likelihood of 3000# COPOs, that meet the letter of the law in NHRA Stock-class form, is kinda remote...
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:23 AM   #111
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And, am I the only one who noticed the significance of that 20129562 PN? 2012 is the model year and 9562 is the next COPO# following 9560 and 9561. 9560 was the the number used on the ZL1 69 Camaros and 9561 was the number used on the L72 69 Camaros.
Apparently not...check out Post #16:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...highlight=COPO
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Old 04-05-2012, 01:14 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
...which is the "as-assembled Curb Weight" + NHRA-mandated safety equipment and race-ready mods - NHTSA-unnecessary deletes.

Without resorting to expensive, exotic measures and componentry, the likelihood of 3000# COPOs, that meet the letter of the law in NHRA Stock-class form, is kinda remote...
The COPO's will be very well engineered, very light (before weight-break required ballasting), and great vehicles.

Not trying to argue but educate.

For example, the 1998 Firebird and Camaro's in NHRA Stock cannot be run as a LS1 car, only LT1 for the V8's. GM did not build any 1998 LT1's, but, that's what in the classification guide.

For the LS1 cars, let's use a Firebird Formula coupe LS1 auto-trans car (not T/A, not convertible, etc.). With ONLY a change of hood, you go from 3507# to 3214# minimum race weight for it's "natural" class (you can change that, but, that's another lesson). This is from the #/hp * hp then add 170# for the driver. Below,

LS1 LS1 LS1 LS1
346 346 346 346 (CUBES)
Auto Man Man Auto (TRANS)
310hp 310hp 325hp 325hp (INITIAL NHRA HP RATING)

8.71 9.54 8.91 8.25 (#/HP)

382 349 342 369 (CURRENT NHRA HP RATING)
1.1.12 7.8.04 7.20.10 8.11.09 (LATEST REVISION DUE TO AHFS)
NON NON WS6 WS6 (STYLE...HOOD IN THIS CASE)
RAM RAM RAM RAM
AIR AIR AIR AIR


Why are the hp ratings now so different? Because different combos and drivers have been penalized by runs impacted by AHFS. The AHFS is used as the self-policing system to ensure "soft" combos eventually start to get "corrected". Pontiac could have submitted the cars as 210hp instead of 310hp originally...

Confusing, yes! However, some us have actual experience with this...think I should add a pic to my signature. Might make my knowledge of this subject more relevant based on one of my cars...remember, you are limited to a 9" radial which is what is seen below (best of 1.24 60' with my 427, best of 1.28 with my 346).


Last edited by RUQWIKR; 04-05-2012 at 01:27 PM.
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Old 04-05-2012, 02:49 PM   #113
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Interesting you bring up '98 Firebirds and LT1s...we built such a car with Pontiac's support, from a fresh-from-Ste. Therese body-in-white, in '98...
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:27 PM   #114
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I got the phone call from the good Dr. at GMPP today. Inquiring if I was interested in purchasing a COPO. I declined. I informed him I had a 2SS/RS Lemon and wasn't interested in purchasing another.
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