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Old 03-15-2012, 01:36 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by General Lee View Post
Have you even run your car on a track??
All he needs is bigger sway bars to get started. You don't have to break the bank to have fun.
He's having a new baby, and said a ZL1 is out of the price range.
Any camaro is better than no camaro.
Then get a 6cyl. leave it stock and have a blast at the track bro'.

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Originally Posted by Cap'n Pete View Post
What I've learned, it doesn't matter WHAT car you get, it's easy to start throwing money at them regardless ..... even my Z06 could use a couple track-oriented bits and pieces to make it "perfect"!!

As for the things you pointed out, I can immediately rule out a couple of them as non-issue:

- more power (it needs more than 400hp. for 4k/lbs.)
- suspension (springs / coilovers, sways, end-links, bushings, et al)
- wheels, tires
- brakes

The way I see it, power is what it is, and more isn't always better. As it stands, I am NOT using all 505HP of the Z06!! I've been at this for a few years, so I'm beyond the "novice" stage, but realistically, ~400 HP is probably a perfectly safe (and useable!) power level for me.

Suspension is not important to me at the moment. If you could see how I drive my Avalanche, you'd understand, ANYTHING with less body roll than that is just fine! Even my '02 Z28 was still "fun" to run, before I got into modding the suspension (basically, had a full Strano setup in it).

Wheels/tires are just part of going to the track, and not specific to a higher or lower end car.

Brakes will be consumed on ANY car that is taken to the track, so again, non-issue.

The couple things I AM concerned about, and would like to hear as much real reports of that I can, are the other things you mentioned:

- strength (diff., axles, tranny) - are they not any stronger than a 4th-gen Camaro, with the p.o.s. 7-1/2" 10-bolt? Are the trannsmissions equally as prone to puking under moderate abuse?

- cooling - specifically, what? Brakes? Engine? Steering? What coolers does the factory already have in place, and do they not work well enough for maybe ~2 or 3 lapping days a year??
Any car can work for 2 or 3 lapping days a year, especially a stock Camaro.

Do your research, there is tons of information on this forum.

Decide on what you want and what's important to you handling, steering, power, braking, et al. And go from there. Maybe rent one, drive it around to get a feel for it.

Everyone on this forum will give you a different answer from the fan-boys saying it's perfect to the extreme moder that wants it to be an all out race car.

For me I wanted better handling and more power so did a Hotchis track pack first, this is the very least I would do then go to the track see how it feels and then decide you next steps from there, I'll be at the track this year with the new setup I have so I'll know from there the next thing I may need to do I'm thinking some form of cooling.

Last edited by calbert1999; 03-15-2012 at 01:49 AM.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:49 PM   #27
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^ ^ Which track/events do you usually run at? Mosport? TMP? SMP? Apex days? Dexter days? BMW club? 6th Gear? Just curious if/where I may run into you .
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Old 03-15-2012, 04:32 PM   #28
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Didn't read the entire thread- but if you have the z06 keep it. Just get a Honda or Toyota for the family. I got rid of my Vette thinking I wouldn't miss it, but I do!! I have an SS now and track her, but doesn't compare to my Vette. Now don't get me wrong, I have a blast at the track with her - but like I said doesn't compare. I don't regret - but would I make a different decision if I had the Vette still _YES!

I have PFADT sways and BC CoilOvers for Road Course days. Makes a huge diff in handling. Steel braided lines, RBF 600 and Hawk DTC60 and HT10 and get no brake fade. I have an L99 as I never got the heel and toe down in my two previous manuals so I opted for tap shifting. I've done 4 track days and two of them the temps reached 80 to 83 and the tranny didn't get hot. However I'm putting in a cooler in the next couple weeks. I don't do track days in the summer but I'm going to squeeze in another 3 days after this Saturday.

You're a good guy to cough up the Vette to have something the family can use. But I think you can get something that is cheap and won't hurt your pockets and keep the Vette. I only got rid of mine and a few other cars so I can move out of the town I was in and have a long time to find a job. What I regret is I ended up deciding to move back to where I moved from to be closer to family. My Vette(Road Course, IS350(AutoX) and my M35 daily driver gone!!! And for what.:(

Oh well live, learn and move forward!! If you do get rid of the Z and put a little into the Camaro you will have fun. I say at minimum get sway bars to remove that body roll.
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Old 03-15-2012, 09:34 PM   #29
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Hey Pete, follow the link...
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209928
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Old 03-16-2012, 06:47 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by General Lee View Post
Have you even run your car on a track??
All he needs is bigger sway bars to get started. You don't have to break the bank to have fun.
He's having a new baby, and said a ZL1 is out of the price range.
Any camaro is better than no camaro.
Don't mind if I chime in but just don't get an L99 auto, I had a 2011 L99 and my current LS3 even stock would rape my past L99 with headers, tune and intake, no joke. Plus M6 is better for track , no offense Ronan.
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Old 03-16-2012, 08:58 AM   #31
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Rogan, nice to hear from somebody with some perspective with the L99 / A6. Glad to hear that you haven't had any issues so far. I agree, a BIG COOLER would probably be a very wise move .

L99Cama, I have no misconceptions about the disadvantages of an auto, just trying to leave all "options" open to consideration, since if we go to one vehicle, it may not be practical if my wife can't drive the car if necessary ..... and before anyone suggests, "teach her to drive it", for over 5 years, she's refused to learn on either my Camaro or Corvette (although I'm sure most people wouldn't even consider teaching somebody on either car like that?! ).

No doubt, I'd love to just keep the Z06, but it's a very expensive piece of real estate at the moment, and the payment for that 1 car could be put towards 2 cars which would better suit our needs at this point . But trust me, it's really hard thinking of giving up such an awesome car :(.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:03 AM   #32
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Don't mind if I chime in but just don't get an L99 auto, I had a 2011 L99 and my current LS3 even stock would rape my past L99 with headers, tune and intake, no joke. Plus M6 is better for track , no offense Ronan.
No offense taken. I haven't been raped by stock ls3 and in the 1/4 auto is consistently faster. I prefer stick for the FUN factor and yes manual is better for road course. However I just never got the heel and toe to point where it helped. It only hurt me. However after doing some track days in my l99 I wish I had the manual. I think I was better than I thought as I miss doing it while in my auto.

If I don't trade her in (thinking about a ctsv - dealer waiting on me to decide) - I will super charge her and put a cooler for the tranny. The cts v is so pretty on the inside that I don't feel like driving her hard.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:21 AM   #33
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Rogan, nice to hear from somebody with some perspective with the L99 / A6. Glad to hear that you haven't had any issues so far. I agree, a BIG COOLER would probably be a very wise move .

L99Cama, I have no misconceptions about the disadvantages of an auto, just trying to leave all "options" open to consideration, since if we go to one vehicle, it may not be practical if my wife can't drive the car if necessary ..... and before anyone suggests, "teach her to drive it", for over 5 years, she's refused to learn on either my Camaro or Corvette (although I'm sure most people wouldn't even consider teaching somebody on either car like that?! ).

No doubt, I'd love to just keep the Z06, but it's a very expensive piece of real estate at the moment, and the payment for that 1 car could be put towards 2 cars which would better suit our needs at this point . But trust me, it's really hard thinking of giving up such an awesome car :(.
You have obviously have to do what makes you feel comfortable. You will miss that Z for sure - but we all get over things like that. The wife should have a decent car to drive - so just research your options. Maybe in your case you get a cheap Honda for your daily driving, your wife get a decent family car and for your track days an S2000? You'll eventually be back into a Vette - but this option allows you to have a track car you don't have to spend anything on initially. S2000 may lack torque but once you get her going you will find it very fun in the turns - and you can hold that momentum for nice exit speeds.

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Old 03-16-2012, 01:57 PM   #34
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HONDA is a 4-letter-word in my books, buddy!!! I'll stick with my high-mileage, aging Avalanche before going to the dark side! My wife won't have anything but a GM either ..... the Oshawa assembly plant kept a roof over her head and food on the table growing up, so we can't turn our backs on GM like that!!

The way I see this deal going down, The Z06 and Avalanche go, I'll get a Camaro, she gets a new Equinox (or something similar) and we may keep her car around for me as a winter beater ('04 Optra ... not a "domestic" Chevy, but it does wear a bowtie ).

If we get rid of her car, then I'd be hard pressed getting a 6-speed Camaro since I could leave her "stranded" in the event I take her vehicle for some reason, so keeping her Optra would provide a good alternative, and could save the Camaro from winter use/abuse as well .

I will miss the Z06 dearly, but I'll get over it. Giving up going to the track entirely sounds painful, so I'll be perfectly fine out there with an LS3/6-speed Camaro. I'm sure the mod-bug will hit me one day, but in the meantime, I'll "survive" with it being bone stock .

No final decisions yet, but hopefully that's how things will pan out .
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Old 03-16-2012, 01:59 PM   #35
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HONDA is a 4-letter-word in my books, buddy!!! I'll stick with my high-mileage, aging Avalanche before going to the dark side! My wife won't have anything but a GM either ..... the Oshawa assembly plant kept a roof over her head and food on the table growing up, so we can't turn our backs on GM like that!!

The way I see this deal going down, The Z06 and Avalanche go, I'll get a Camaro, she gets a new Equinox (or something similar) and we may keep her car around for me as a winter beater ('04 Optra ... not a "domestic" Chevy, but it does wear a bowtie ).

If we get rid of her car, then I'd be hard pressed getting a 6-speed Camaro since I could leave her "stranded" in the event I take her vehicle for some reason, so keeping her Optra would provide a good alternative, and could save the Camaro from winter use/abuse as well .

I will miss the Z06 dearly, but I'll get over it. Giving up going to the track entirely sounds painful, so I'll be perfectly fine out there with an LS3/6-speed Camaro. I'm sure the mod-bug will hit me one day, but in the meantime, I'll "survive" with it being bone stock .

No final decisions yet, but hopefully that's how things will pan out .
lolz...
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Old 03-16-2012, 02:54 PM   #36
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However I just never got the heel and toe to point where it helped. It only hurt me.
IMO, heel-toe isn't as "critical" as some people make it out to be. I never managed successfully for the first ~4 - 5 years, as it just didn't work all that well with the pedal arrangement in my '02 Z28. When I got into my first C6, the pedals were damn near "perfect", and I began doing heel-toe all the time.

The MOST IMPORTANT part, is rev-matching your down-shifts. That "blip" of throttle is key. I got so good at timing my down-shifts just before getting on the brakes, and rev-matching them, that I was "complimented" on how well I did heel-toe! (even though it wasn't heel-toe at all ).

Since it's been quite awhile since I've driven the 5th-gen, I can't remember what the pedal arrangement is like ... whether the gas and brake are close enough to do heel-toe easily or not?
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:01 PM   #37
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Here's a question:

Anybody (or know anybody who) lost a motor due to oil starvation??

Apparently it's quite a concern with the LS3 in the C6, but I don't know, it could be due to differences in the design (size/shape) of the oil pan used in the C6 vs. Camaro? (assuming there is a difference? ).

GM came out with a "Bat-wing" (shaped) pan for the LS3 (C6), similar to that on the LS6 (C5Z06). Are the pans between a C6 LS3 and Camaro LS3 the same, or different?

Wondering if there are any issues with that, and if so, is there a known "fix", other than going to an Accusump and/or aftermarket dry-sump?
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:09 PM   #38
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The vette was a dry sump oil system.
We don't have that.
Corner 5 has claimed a few vette engines.
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Old 03-17-2012, 03:12 PM   #39
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Corner 5 has claimed a few vette engines.
From what I've heard, it's 2 and 4 (esp. 2) that are really hard on them, and you "find out" when you get into 5 .

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The vette was a dry sump oil system.
We don't have that.
The base C6 (LS3) uses a conventional oil pan ... no dry sump. Only the Grand Sport / Z06 / ZR1 get that (and even the dry sump system needs upgrades ).

But as for the stock LS3, at least in the C6, they've been known to starve for oil after long, high-g corners. In some cases, they're fine on street tires, and only an issue on R-compound tires.

Just wasn't sure if there is much history with the Camaros? (yet??)

BTW, enough LS3's (stock, no mods) blew on the track, and GM covered them under warranty, that GM came up with a "solution" by designing a "bat-wing" pan (like the LS6's) specifically for the LS3, for track use. They've also had to replace blown LS7's with dry-sump, (under warranty) and have since increased the capacity of the system in an effort to alleviate the problems with it.

I guess my REAL question here is, does the Camaro's LS3 use the SAME oil pan as the C6's, or is it a different pan? (maybe larger capacity? does it have any kind of baffling inside??)

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Old 03-17-2012, 03:54 PM   #40
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There is a bit of baffling to get oil down into the pan and prevent foaming on the crank. But no trap doors around the pump or anything fancy like a track made pan. You also have to consider that a corvette will pull some serious g's when modded. Most camaros won't get to that level without major suspension/wheel/tire mods. I haven't seen or heard of anyone running the pump dry on a camaro.

I did find this which looks interesting:
http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-pa...ffle-p-41.html

I figure if you've thrown enough money at the car's suspension that the risk is valid then you probably have some cash going into the engine as well so a baffle would be a wise investment. But for a bolt-on camaro with a fair number of suspension mods you should be fine. I would avoid high volume oil pumps though if you have plans like yours. Also some road courses have high speed sustained turns so it will be track specific where problems are highlighted. I'm too lazy to find all the fiches to see if its the same part number.

You seem to be bouncing back and forth between minimal mods and making a track monster. Eventually you're going to find some weak links on a track monster.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:43 AM   #41
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No track experience for me (yet) but this is a great read.
Just a couple of things I think I can mention.

The automatic V8 is an L99, not an LS3. Variable cam timing. Different lifters. Not sure what other differences.

An automatic V6 is an open differential, not an LSD.

P.S. My wife knows how to drive a stick. She wouldn't drive my Camaro even if it was automatic. She would rather call a taxi.
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Old 03-18-2012, 09:32 AM   #42
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There is a bit of baffling to get oil down into the pan and prevent foaming on the crank. But no trap doors around the pump or anything fancy like a track made pan. You also have to consider that a corvette will pull some serious g's when modded. Most camaros won't get to that level without major suspension/wheel/tire mods. I haven't seen or heard of anyone running the pump dry on a camaro.

I did find this which looks interesting:
http://www.improvedracing.com/oil-pa...ffle-p-41.html

I figure if you've thrown enough money at the car's suspension that the risk is valid then you probably have some cash going into the engine as well so a baffle would be a wise investment. But for a bolt-on camaro with a fair number of suspension mods you should be fine. I would avoid high volume oil pumps though if you have plans like yours. Also some road courses have high speed sustained turns so it will be track specific where problems are highlighted. I'm too lazy to find all the fiches to see if its the same part number.

You seem to be bouncing back and forth between minimal mods and making a track monster. Eventually you're going to find some weak links on a track monster.
Thanks for the post. I only have coilovers and pdaft sways. I feel putting race tires would probably make it a good idea to have this pan. Trailing arms and some bushings are next for suspension.
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Old 03-18-2012, 03:28 PM   #43
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You also have to consider that a corvette will pull some serious g's when modded. Most camaros won't get to that level without major suspension/wheel/tire mods.
Does the H.U.D. show the cornering g's like it does in the 'Vette? Curious what kind of g's the Camaros are pulling, on average, from streets to R-comps?

FWIW, I have seen consistant numbers between 1.0 - 1.2 with the Z06!

Also FWIW, both the C6's LS3 and LS7 have suffered starvation once they start sustaining over 1.0 for long, sweeping corners, and (amazingly!) that can be achieved on factory tires, with NO MODS.

So I think you can probably understand my concern with the LS3?

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I haven't seen or heard of anyone running the pump dry on a camaro. ... I'm too lazy to find all the fiches to see if its the same part number.
I found the p/n ... 12622559 . Also, checking the spec's between the base C6 and Camaro, the C6 only takes 5.5L, vs. the Camaro takes 8.5L ... that's a huge difference! And I found a picture on this page (http://www.camarohomepage.com/ls3/ - a lot of good info on there, actually!) which shows the windage tray, which DOESN'T exist in a base C6?! So I'm beginning to see why it's likely NOT been a problem with the Camaro . When I first got my C6, I had the crap scared out of me with some of the horror stories ... but looks like the Camaro is actually better equipped in this regard! That's VERY good news to me!

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You seem to be bouncing back and forth between minimal mods and making a track monster. Eventually you're going to find some weak links on a track monster.
Nope, not looking for a track monster ... been there, done that ... just looking for a nice driving car that I can, perhaps, slap some tires and brakes on (with little to no mods) and go have some fun on occasion

I want something that's going to be reliable, and not constantly breaking / breaking-down (not that the 'Vettes fit into that category, but I've been down that road before), and doesn't "need mods" before stepping foot onto the track just for the occasional day once in awhile (and since oil starvation is a real concern with the C6's, then it had to be addressed with them). Other than blowing the diff a few times in my '02 Z28 () that car performed flawlessly for me for many years and miles. I'm getting the impression the new one should be equally as trouble-free, as long as I treat it right .

Again, I appreciate all the helpful feedback that's been provided in this thread.
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Old 03-18-2012, 07:20 PM   #44
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For HPDE and TT events that are run on aggressive street tires, the consensus is that LS3 oiling isn't such a big deal. (Unless it's the LS3 in YOUR car that just blew up, then it's a big deal.)

If you're only going to do a few trackdays each year like you say, just stay on street tires and you'll have fun without constantly worrying about engine problems. It doesn't sound like you're going to gut and cage your car and build a racecar out of it, you just want to go have some weekend fun, right?
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Old 03-18-2012, 10:55 PM   #45
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Does the H.U.D. show the cornering g's like it does in the 'Vette? Curious what kind of g's the Camaros are pulling, on average, from streets to R-comps?
No nothing great just speed and rpm in a few different formats; plus song titles and artist for XM and iPod. Why have g's when you can have music?

I know a company was selling something recently that took info from the OBDII connection and displayed up to 2 parameters through the HUD. That may be an option if the computer is actually tracking that and not just engine data.
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Old 03-18-2012, 11:00 PM   #46
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:12 PM   #47
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Hey Pete, I've been to the track quite a few times with lost of suspension, wheel, tire, and engine mods, and have never had a problem with oil issues or overheating.
Stock will be just fine.
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:38 PM   #48
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It doesn't sound like you're going to gut and cage your car and build a racecar out of it, you just want to go have some weekend fun, right?
Bingo . It will be a Monday-Friday "commuter car", with occasional track days. A couple years ago I had a '93 Z28, fully gutted, caged, coil-over suspension, yada-yada, and required truck/trailer/storage for everything. Not looking at getting back into something so extreme at this point. Heck, with having a new baby, I don't even know if I'll get to the track AT ALL in the first year, but I'd like for it to at least be an option (hence, a mini-van or SUV is out!!)
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Old 03-19-2012, 04:44 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Synner View Post
No nothing great just speed and rpm in a few different formats; plus song titles and artist for XM and iPod. Why have g's when you can have music?
Agreed. Not like the cornering g's are even relevant to running on the track, and it would probably just be a distraction. But knowing who is currently playing on Octane (XM) is definitely good to know when I'm heading towards Turn 8 at Mosport at ~120+ MPH ............. .

Quote:
Originally Posted by stratman2SSRS View Post
Hey Pete, I've been to the track quite a few times with lost of suspension, wheel, tire, and engine mods, and have never had a problem with oil issues or overheating.
Stock will be just fine.
Wicked. Well, clearly the increased oil capacity and the windage tray in the Camaro help BIG TIME. Pretty sad, actually, that they didn't put that stuff into the base C6, and they had to "engineer" an after-thought solution to the problem (which, btw, is also around ~8 or 9 qts, and has a windage tray!).

Also nice to know you've had no heat issues.

Thanks again guys!
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Old 04-20-2012, 05:04 PM   #50
Cap'n Pete
 
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Drives: '02 Z28
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Oshawa
Posts: 85
Well, just thought I'd give you guys an update ..... I bought a Camaro ..... but not a new one ...

... I actually bought BACK my old '02 Z28 from my buddy who bought it from me back in 2010!! The Z06 and Avalanche are gone, and we're getting a GMC Terrain for my wife. But yeah, I got my old Z28 back!!

It doesn't have quite the same pull as I've been used to with either the LS3 or LS7, but it's still quick enough. May need a heads/cam, LS3 or LS7 upgrade though!!

Anyway, at least I've got a car that I can take to the track, and I'm actually saving a ton of money this way, vs. buying a new Camaro. Now I can actually AFFORD to go to the track!!

So that's my story. Thanks again for everybody's input, and maybe I'll see a couple of you local guys out at Mosport (now known as Canadian Tire Motorsport Park?!) sometime this season .
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