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Old 03-30-2012, 09:01 PM   #645
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1LE is

Felt obligated to post that.

I really do like it!!!
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Old 03-30-2012, 09:03 PM   #646
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1LE is

Felt obligated to post that.

I really do like it!!!
Dude, are you gonna add the 1LE to your ....................... oh... right............. nvmd












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Old 03-30-2012, 09:09 PM   #647
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Old 03-30-2012, 09:11 PM   #648
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Yeah, I'm not sure about the hood either but I'm reserving judgement till I see one in person. I would really like to be able to get rally stripes but I'm not gonna let the hood wrap keep me from a 1LE.
Me either. Considering all the other upgrades and great parts a black hood is too nit picky not to get the car. Hoods can be painted cheap. Transmissions, gearing, and suspension components take a lot of effort, work, and $$$$



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Who cares what the boss has if it can't win.
In a way you have a point, but that depends on what you plan to do with the car. Forged internals hold up better to abuse and mods and provide a better base.

I actually compared stuff like this when looking at the LS3 and coyote motor and decided LS3 because of what appeared to be stronger internals.

LS3.
Iron crank (This can take a lot of extra hp). You need to get a Boss for a forged crank on the coyote.

Sintered Rods (I actually believe the BOSS 302 rods are sintered rods instead of a true forging the regular GT coyote being weaker)

Sodium Filled Valves (Again not on the coyote, but you have to get the Boss for that)

The coyote motor was already bored and stroked to the max with nothing much more that could be done. The LS3 was not.

And time will tell, but it appears the TR6060 is a stronger transmission.


I like the transmission and suspension upgrades, but 7-8K for those is a lot of coin.
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Old 03-30-2012, 09:40 PM   #649
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Me either. Considering all the other upgrades and great parts a black hood is too nit picky not to get the car. Hoods can be painted cheap. Transmissions, gearing, and suspension components take a lot of effort, work, and $$$$





In a way you have a point, but that depends on what you plan to do with the car. Forged internals hold up better to abuse and mods and provide a better base.

I actually compared stuff like this when looking at the LS3 and coyote motor and decided LS3 because of what appeared to be stronger internals.

LS3.
Iron crank (This can take a lot of extra hp). You need to get a Boss for a forged crank on the coyote.

Sintered Rods (I actually believe the BOSS 302 rods are sintered rods instead of a true forging the regular GT coyote being weaker)

Sodium Filled Valves (Again not on the coyote, but you have to get the Boss for that)

The coyote motor was already bored and stroked to the max with nothing much more that could be done. The LS3 was not.

And time will tell, but it appears the TR6060 is a stronger transmission.


I like the transmission and suspension upgrades, but 7-8K for those is a lot of coin.

Should the 1LE option cost that much? Maybe not, but it still performs as well as a BOSS 302 for $2,000 less. Even if it cost $6,000 - $7,000, that is less than it would cost you to duplicate a 1LE with an SS. Keep in mind, you still have a bumper to bumper factory warranty.
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Old 03-30-2012, 11:00 PM   #650
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Even if it cost $6,000 - $7,000, that is less than it would cost you to duplicate a 1LE with an SS. Keep in mind, you still have a bumper to bumper factory warranty.
Hmmm. To me that looks steep, but let me try to see what you get for your money.

Quote:
While the Camaro SS features a Tremec TR6060-M10 for all-around performance, the Camaro 1LE features an exclusive Tremec TR6060-MM6. Paired with a numerically higher 3.91 final-drive ratio, the close-ratio gearing of the transmission is tuned for road-racing performance. As with the ZL1, the 1LE transmission features a standard air-to-liquid cooling system for track use.
I can't find anything about the M10, but it looks like the MM6 comes directly from the vette and is used on the 7L 505hp Z06. Does that mean it is beefed up compared to the M10? Sounds hopeful. From what I can find the ZL1 uses the MG9 of the TR6060. The extra cooling is nice. I wonder if the clutch is the same?

Quote:
The 1LE also features exclusive, monotube rear dampers instead of the twin-tube dampers on SS models. The new hardware allowed engineers to tune the 1LE suspension to focus on optimal body-motion control while preserving much of the ride quality and wheel-motion control of the Camaro SS.

Other changes to optimize the 1LE for track-day use include:

Larger, 27-mm solid front stabilizer bar, and 28-mm solid rear stabilizer bar for improved body control
Higher-capacity rear-axle half shafts to cope with increased levels of traction
Strut tower brace for improved steering feel and response
ZL1-based 20 x 10-inch front and 20 x 11-inch aluminum wheels
285/35ZR20 Goodyear Eagle Supercar G:2 tires front and rear (identical to the front tires for ZL1)
ZL1 wheel bearings, toe links and rear shock mounts for improved on-track performance
ZL1 high-capacity fuel pump and additional fuel pickups for improved fuel delivery during high-cornering
Some of this might be good. Here is some info from Hot Rod on what breaks in high performance usage when it comes to suspension.

Quote:
IRS and Driveshaft








The V8 Camaro's IRS (independent rear suspension) has 218mm (8.58-inch) rear gears and a clutch-type limited-slip diff. The gears are unique. Stock ratios are 3.27 or 3.45:1; Richmond has 3.70 and 4.10:1 ratios. The current stock rear is marginal for serious high-perf use.


Rear suspension flex (450 hp): IPS reports toe-arm failures as low as 25 to 50 hp over stock. Pfadt has stiffeners; BMR offers adjustable units. Excessive wheelhop can damage the rear trailing arms, contributing to differential problems (Pfadt and LPE have upgrades). Hotchkis sells a Chassis Max Brace to control unwanted suspension movement.



Rear subframe flex (475 hp): The stock subframe bushings allow excess cradle movement, causing lost power and bad traction. Replace with solid or polyurethane bushings for better rear-cradle durability and improved handling. Pfadt is one source.



Gears fail (500-plus horsepower): Only a three-series Posi carrier is available, so the pinion gets really small as gear ratio increases. Tire type and driving style influence longevity big time.



Halfshafts break (wheelhop, 500 to 600 hp): The more severe the wheelhop, the sooner the drive axles break. The stock computer calibration limits axlehop, but that also limits performance. Knowing when to back off the throttle is the cheap fix, followed by lighter-weight wheels and tires (because they have less inertia), and ultimately stouter aftermarket axles.



Posi problems (various): Jannetty says the stock Posi is weak: "It's prone to one-legger burnouts; the breakaway torque is way too low." Its Posi mods include upgraded clutch packs and a different preload spring. With a tuned Posi and revised internal gear preload, clearances, and patterns, the stock rear can take up to 750 hp, but 650 hp is more realistic for daily driving.



Driveshaft issues (over 5,000 rpm): Most report that the stock two-piece driveshaft is surprisingly robust. LPE's 9-second Camaro uses a shortened, stock, two-piece 'shaft, but with an improved center support to prevent the middle slider from twisting and binding. However, The Driveshaft Shop maintains that "anything with a slider is unstable over 5,000-rpm driveshaft speed." Its solutions range from a stouter two-piece unit with a CV joint or a one-piece aluminum or carbon-fiber 'shaft.

The Transmission cooling seems like a good idea as well:

Quote:
Hydraulic clutch actuation issues: IPS has seen soft clutch engagement and difficulty getting the car in gear after multiple dragstrip passes. Apparently heat buildup causes a clutch fluid viscosity breakdown. Bleed the system often and use a higher-quality clutch fluid.
The brembo brake package on the mustang is just $1700 more. If this source is correct you also get suspension improvements with it:

Quote:
First,we need to look at what a normal 2011-12 GT shares with a Brembo Mustang:

Part Specifications that ALL 2011-12 Mustang GTs come standard with including the Brembo Mustang:
  • Rear: 11.8" Vented Rotors with 1-Piston Calipers
  • Sway Bars ( 34.6mm Front/ 24mm Rear)
  • Strut Bar Brace
  • Higher Durometer Rubber Bushings

Second, lets look at what a standard 2011-12 Mustang GT does not have, that a Brembo Mustang does;

The (55D) Brembo Brake Package includes the following:

  • Front: 14" Brembo® Vented Rotors with Brembo® 4-Piston Calipers
  • 19 x 9.0-inch dark-stainless premium painted aluminum wheels
  • 255/40R19 Pirelli PZero Summer-Only (Coupe) or P255/40ZR19 Goodyear F1 Supercar (Convertible)
  • Different Springs (131lbs Front / 167lbs Rear)
  • Different Struts/ Shocks (tuned for spring rates)
  • GT-500 Rear Lower Control Arms ( Higher Durometer Rubber)
  • Unique Electronic Stability Control® (ESC) Tuning
  • Unique Sport Steering Control Setting (EPAS)
  • Tire Mobility Kit Replaces Spare Tire

Ford downplayed many of these features of the package, and didn't make a detailed list of it, probably because they wanted people to focus on the upcoming 2012 BOSS 302. Why? The answer is simple, if one takes a base Mustang GT in the 300A Rapid Spec (plain like the the 2012 Boss 302, without comfort and electronic packages ), and adds the Brembo Brake Package and the optional 3:73 gears, they damn near have the same car for as little as $29,500. The 2012 Boss 302 stars at a MSRP of $42,000 ( it you can get it that cheap) and only comes with just 30 more Horsepower, manually adjustable shocks, slightly higher spring rates, a larger rear sway bar, and staggered size tires.

http://brembo50.com/Default.aspx?pageId=1130035
The track pack is $2500 which includes the brembo brake package and adds engine cooler, upgraded radiator, better brake pads, and the torsen differential from the Boss 302. It comes with a 3.73 final drive ratio over the stock 3.31 for gearing changes.

That's all for $2500 more. I would think the track pack brings the GT pretty damn close to a Boss 302 in the handling department. The boss still had extra horsepower.

So ya.....$6-8K as I see it is pretty steep unless I am missing something. No matter. I still have high hopes for the 1LE. I am glad to see GM working on improving the handling.
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Old 03-30-2012, 11:13 PM   #651
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I'd like to refrain from doing a Mustang/Camaro comparison in this thread, guys.


A car is the sum of its parts...not an itemized list. While valuable if complete...the list can't detail what the package does for the car out in the real world.

That this car is capable of a sub 3-minute time at VIR is impressive - there are many competitors that can only come close. What's more impressive (to me at least) is that the Camaro team doesn't build cars to post halo times and then leave. They can go lap after lap after lap...

IMO, a third of the 1LE's price is tied up in the wheels/tires...the rest, between the suspension, appearance, and drive line improvements. Not a bad price for what you get...I know if this was all happening a year ago - I'd have a touch decision to make....
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Old 03-31-2012, 12:34 AM   #652
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Hmmm. To me that looks steep, but let me try to see what you get for your money.

I can't find anything about the M10, but it looks like the MM6 comes directly from the vette and is used on the 7L 505hp Z06. Does that mean it is beefed up compared to the M10? Sounds hopeful. From what I can find the ZL1 uses the MG9 of the TR6060. The extra cooling is nice. I wonder if the clutch is the same?

Some of this might be good. Here is some info from Hot Rod on what breaks in high performance usage when it comes to suspension.

The Transmission cooling seems like a good idea as well:

The brembo brake package on the mustang is just $1700 more. If this source is correct you also get suspension improvements with it:

The track pack is $2500 which includes the brembo brake package and adds engine cooler, upgraded radiator, better brake pads, and the torsen differential from the Boss 302. It comes with a 3.73 final drive ratio over the stock 3.31 for gearing changes.

That's all for $2500 more. I would think the track pack brings the GT pretty damn close to a Boss 302 in the handling department. The boss still had extra horsepower.

So ya.....$6-8K as I see it is pretty steep unless I am missing something. No matter. I still have high hopes for the 1LE. I am glad to see GM working on improving the handling.

I look at it this way; Let's say you already have an SS Camaro. How much would it cost to change the transmission, put in a 3.91 gear set, change the shocks (and possibly springs), put in better half shafts, change the wheels and tires, change the steering wheel and shift handle, change the sway bars and end links, add a splitter and rear wing, upgrade the cooling system and upgrade the fuel system? The parts alone would probably cost over $6,000, and that doesn't include labor. However, since the car comes this way from the factory, you have to deduct the cost of the stock parts. So the option might not seem worth the price to some people.

As for the Mustang, other than the differential (which doen't help too much), you didn't list anything in the Track Pack that would improve handling. 20-30 horsepower is very easy to overcome on a road course. Want proof? The 1LE is heavier and less powerful than a BOSS 302 (the BOSS makes over 450 HP), yet it is slower around a road course than a 1LE. The car that can carry more speed thru the corners will have a decided advantage, and HP won't help you go thru corners any faster.
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Old 03-31-2012, 01:44 AM   #653
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OK - I don't mean to sound harsh..........

But let me make sure I'm understanding what you're saying:

You've driven the 1LE and a 2012 SS back to back -- right?


(...and the answer is "Wrong!".......)

Again - not to be harsh -- ......but.........


--Perhaps you should consider waiting to drive the 1LE prior to making such pronouncements.

(by the way - the SSX really had nothing to do with the 1LE -- other than that they both have "Camaro" on them and they both share similar wheels...)
fbodfather. No Worries I take no offense. I am speaking of the dissapointment I personaly am feeling of what GM is going to market as a "Track Pack" car.
My statment wasn't comparing the 1LE to a stock 2012 SS, it's comparing it to a used SS with more bang for the buck upgrades. This is coming from someone who has been going to the track at least 1 weekend (sometimes 2-3) a month for a year and a half. I have done some modest mods and have been contimplating on how far I want to take my car. It would have been nice to start over with something farther along then what GM came out with. I'm pretty sure I coudn't even take the 1LE out on the track until a flushed the DOT3 brake Fluid out with something with a decent high boiling point.
Never really compared the 1LE to the SSX but which one do you think fits the description of "Track Pack". But if your telling me there might still be a chance that the SSX concept still might make some kind of appearance because it isn't connected to the 1LE...I'm all ears. Here in the great state of AZ where many a Camaro's have been sold, I can count on 1 hand the # of other Camaro's I have seen in NASA,SCCA or ASA for the last 1.5 yrs. I'm the only one.
So I figured perhaps I'm the niche market they are targetting. Take aim.....oooh way wide left. Try again.
I actually hope some folks do buy it and take to the track, would be good to see some folks out here sharing the fun.
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Old 03-31-2012, 02:12 AM   #654
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I agree with you here. I guess it depends on what the 1LE package will end up costing and their intended market. The Boss 302 was mentioned and it was mentioned it would cost a little less. Well...the Boss 302 has more hp over a gt and the motor is underrated so it makes more than the advertised 444 hp. I think I saw 416 rwhp from insideline. The motor also has forged internals and the heads are ported from the factory. :
Insidelines dyno reviews are notoriously overrated for nearly every make and model of car the test. They use a happy dyno for everyone.

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Originally Posted by Butcher View Post
I look at it this way; Let's say you already have an SS Camaro. How much would it cost to change the transmission, put in a 3.91 gear set, change the shocks (and possibly springs), put in better half shafts, change the wheels and tires, change the steering wheel and shift handle, change the sway bars and end links, add a splitter and rear wing, upgrade the cooling system and upgrade the fuel system? The parts alone would probably cost over $6,000, and that doesn't include labor. However, since the car comes this way from the factory, you have to deduct the cost of the stock parts. So the option might not seem worth the price to some people.

As for the Mustang, other than the differential (which doen't help too much), you didn't list anything in the Track Pack that would improve handling. 20-30 horsepower is very easy to overcome on a road course. Want proof? The 1LE is heavier and less powerful than a BOSS 302 (the BOSS makes over 450 HP), yet it is slower around a road course than a 1LE. The car that can carry more speed thru the corners will have a decided advantage, and HP won't help you go thru corners any faster.
Also I think there is something to be said about the convienience of factory options such as this, especially on a new car. No extra down time, no warranty implications, etc. Body work and appearance costs can be considerable as well in these packages, and often overlooked because they arent necessarily performance enhancing.

If I had signifcant modding plans, i would buy a 2 or 3 year old used model first that took the initial depreciation hit, save even more money, and then mod to my hearts content.
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Old 03-31-2012, 07:36 AM   #655
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fbodfather. No Worries I take no offense. I am speaking of the dissapointment I personaly am feeling of what GM is going to market as a "Track Pack" car.
My statment wasn't comparing the 1LE to a stock 2012 SS, it's comparing it to a used SS with more bang for the buck upgrades. This is coming from someone who has been going to the track at least 1 weekend (sometimes 2-3) a month for a year and a half. I have done some modest mods and have been contimplating on how far I want to take my car. It would have been nice to start over with something farther along then what GM came out with. I'm pretty sure I coudn't even take the 1LE out on the track until a flushed the DOT3 brake Fluid out with something with a decent high boiling point.
Never really compared the 1LE to the SSX but which one do you think fits the description of "Track Pack". But if your telling me there might still be a chance that the SSX concept still might make some kind of appearance because it isn't connected to the 1LE...I'm all ears. Here in the great state of AZ where many a Camaro's have been sold, I can count on 1 hand the # of other Camaro's I have seen in NASA,SCCA or ASA for the last 1.5 yrs. I'm the only one.
So I figured perhaps I'm the niche market they are targetting. Take aim.....oooh way wide left. Try again.
I actually hope some folks do buy it and take to the track, would be good to see some folks out here sharing the fun.
I'm curious, how much MORE performance do want for less than $40,000? Based on the info we have, it sounds like a 1LE would be at least 4-5 seconds per lap faster than an SS Camaro. I could be wrong, but that seems like a significant performance advantage for the money. I also think that it is likely that a 1LE will hold it's value better than a modified SS. Time will tell...
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Old 03-31-2012, 07:39 AM   #656
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Also I think there is something to be said about the convienience of factory options such as this, especially on a new car. No extra down time, no warranty implications, etc. Body work and appearance costs can be considerable as well in these packages, and often overlooked because they arent necessarily performance enhancing.

If I had signifcant modding plans, i would buy a 2 or 3 year old used model first that took the initial depreciation hit, save even more money, and then mod to my hearts content.

Exactly! That's weird, I guess that people who own Z06's have a similar thought process.
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Old 03-31-2012, 10:39 AM   #657
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Exactly! That's weird, I guess that people who own Z06's have a similar thought process.
LOL maybe so...

But now that you mention it, owning my Z06 has significantly changed my view of modding cars, especially new cars. I used to mod brand new cars, but when I got into my Z06 a few years ago I quickly realized that, straight from the factory, the capabilities of the car exceeded my skill and experience. To me, there was no point really modding the car until I could get all the performance out of it as is, straight line, through the curves wherever. That isn't to say down the road I won't mod my Z06, but only after I feel comfortable that I can't get much more out of her on my own. These days I also just like seeing what the factory options can do.

I guess is a bit off topic regarding the 1LE, what I am trying to say is that I believe the 1LE option is worth the money being asked for the most part.
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Old 03-31-2012, 01:05 PM   #658
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I look at it this way; Let's say you already have an SS Camaro. How much would it cost to change the transmission, put in a 3.91 gear set, change the shocks (and possibly springs), put in better half shafts, change the wheels and tires, change the steering wheel and shift handle, change the sway bars and end links, add a splitter and rear wing, upgrade the cooling system and upgrade the fuel system? The parts alone would probably cost over $6,000, and that doesn't include labor. However, since the car comes this way from the factory, you have to deduct the cost of the stock parts. So the option might not seem worth the price to some people.
Quote:
Also I think there is something to be said about the convienience of factory options such as this, especially on a new car. No extra down time, no warranty implications, etc. Body work and appearance costs can be considerable as well in these packages, and often overlooked because they arent necessarily performance enhancing.
I understand and I agree. Buying a brand new car only to gut the suspension and transmission is a lot of work and money with warranty implications. That and from my experience OEM stuff tends to be high quality stuff that has gone through good quality testing. Not always 100% true, but for the most part that reflects my experience. With aftermarket stuff it's a mixed bag when it comes to support and fitment. Sometimes you get an awesome product, but I have run into fitment issues here and there.


I was just saying that for me, and it's only my personal feeling on this, that I tend to usually see GM as offering high value for your money and with the price I am thinking this is going to cost I see it on the expensive side. Others may not and that's fine. It's also possible that as I know more about it that I will completely change my mind. It's very possible that at first glance I missed something.

I know it would cost a lot of money in parts to do stuff like this yourself, but I see it as with modding you already bought a set of parts that came on the car and then you are buying another set of parts. You still have the originals. Getting stuff like this from the factory you should be able to subtract the value of the parts that would have come on the car and add to that price. I believe GM would still be very profitable.

But like I said, this is just my take on it. It all depends on how much track racing you do. If you do a lot of track racing, then the times this package is claiming may be worth every penny and more. This is just cbass's perspective and nothing more.
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