Black ICE vs MACE 25mm

[Blade]

Originally Posted by Mike Norris

Interesting test for sure. I would guess the mid-range gains are from the longer runner length. Plus it seems you have some quite extensive mods compared to what most folks are going to do to their cars.

What I would like to do is a test that more fits 90% of our customers from what I have seen. By that I mean is completely stock or minimal mods (VMax TB & CAI, No Tune, No Headers). This would be comparable to the testing I did for VMax and I think relate to a large portion of the buying market looking at these pieces.

Since Tracy was nice enough to send an ICE-olator out for free to test, maybe MACE would not mind sending one of the 25mm units out to me to test on a CAI/TB only car

If not, are there any US dealers for the MACE 25mm spacer kit? I would like to buy local (US) if at all possible.

Thanks!!

Mike Norris

I am sure if you PM Steve at Mace, he can provide one for you, or you can buy one off of him. He's been offering $150, ships to you within 10 days. I can attest to that

[bmorecam]

I don't think it would matter weather the car is modded or not. If the test was done between two completely different modded cars than that would be inaccurate, but this test was done very fairly, non biased, on the same car, just two different spacers. To me the test clearly show that the ice win up top and mace win at the bottom which in theory it make perfect sense. Both winners in my book and I don't see the need for this to be dragged any longer.

Sent from my POS phone using tapatalk.

[hapisok]

Originally Posted by bmorecam

I don't think it would matter weather the car is modded or not. If the test was done between two completely different modded cars than that would be inaccurate, but this test was done very fairly, non biased, on the same car, just two different spacers. To me the test clearly show that the ice win up top and mace win at the bottom which in theory it make perfect sense. Both winners in my book and I don't see the need for this to be dragged any longer.

Sent from my POS phone using tapatalk.

+1...agree.

but hey, anybody that wants to continue comparison testing...go for it . the more data the better right? i wonder how drastic, if at all, the variation will be on a practically bone stock motor...

obviously heat soak of the air intake is an enemy to these motors. i think if they were the same thickness, then the results would have been nearly identical. but runner length has been proven over and over to change the dynamics of TQ/HP. increased runner length and isolation of the IM from engine heat is what creates the difference between these two...modded, heavily modded, or bone stock. and that is why i don't feel that the results will differ much in comparison. but then again, i've been wrong before. just my .02

Black Ice = higher HP up top

Mace = higher TQ low-mid range

[Mike Norris]

I agree that it may not make a difference in the amount of mods, but only one way to find out.

I mentioned the main reason I would like to do that testing in that 90% of the folks out there on a budget will only want to do, or only be to afford to do, a VMax TB, intake spacer (Mace or VMax) and some kind of CAI.

All in all good info and hope to hear from MACE or one of the US suppliers (If there are any).

Mike Norris

[BowtieBelle]

Seems like six one way, half-dozen the other to me?

[Mike Norris]

Originally Posted by BowtieBelle

Seems like six one way, half-dozen the other to me?

Always good to get a gals perspective To be honest, I do not know of anyone that can feel a difference of anything less the 10HP or 10TQ in a 4000 pound car and this is 3HP one way and and 5TQ the other.

Mike Norris

[hapisok]

i don't disagree with seeing what the gains will be on a stockish motor...just not certain that data will be any more conclusive, thats the point im trying to make.

here is my original dyno before/after with MACE's 25mm...mods: Injen CAI, RX TB, 25mm spacer, TUNE (93 octane), and ARK exhaust. since then, i've added a ported IM and run on E85. the difference was noticeable then and still noticeable now...just sayin.

if you look closer, you'll see the gain on the TQ gain on the previous dyno does hint around a 10point gain vs 5. 10HP/TQ is noticeable when your in the 200's range. 10HP/TQ difference on a 500HP motor won't be as noticeable on a butt dyno, but at that point your now talking tenth's - thousandths of a second on the 1/4 mile where you'll see the difference.

following dyno is for reference purposes only in regards to this conversation. not intended to promote one product or the other. simply as a reference to the shift of HP/TQ and the user (myself) feedback.

[BowtieBelle]

Originally Posted by Mike Norris

Always good to get a gals perspective To be honest, I do not know of anyone that can feel a difference of anything less the 10HP or 10TQ in a 4000 pound car and this is 3HP one way and and 5TQ the other.

Mike Norris

My sentiments exactly!

[ChadG]

Bmore you should really start a thread about how you got the 25mm + Vararam to work out with tons of pics!

Not like you're busy with Vince or anything!

[bmorecam]

Originally Posted by ChadG

Bmore you should really start a thread about how you got the 25mm + Vararam to work out with tons of pics!

Not like you're busy with Vince or anything!

Uhhhh.. you are no good chad LOL!

Got everything I need for the dyno, FINALLY, so I should be back on the dyno sometime early next week for my own tuning needs and also to find out if the update is going to happen or not.

As far as the vararam and 25mm spacer...I just don't know if is really even a thread starting subject. You basically have to do a little sculpting and just cut the rear neck to an angle until you are comfortable with the gap at the radiator. I actually used a die grinder with my 80 grit cartridge rolls that I use for porting since I had it next to me at the time of doing this. A dremel would work perfect too. Also note that the angle does not have to perfectly match up with the tip of the throttle body. The rear neck will line up straight with the top and bottom area regardless of the angle due to the red coupler that hold the rear neck and the throttle body together. You just have to focus on the front gap. Just shave off small amount at a time until you are comfortable with the gap.



I was going to take some pics for you guys today but I ended up making a mistake and spilled some engine degreaser on my maf and all over my vararam tray and filter. I spent most of the day today cleaning up the mess.

I will post up more pics for you guys sometime tomorrow

[ChadG]

Originally Posted by bmorecam

Uhhhh.. you are no good chad LOL!

Got everything I need for the dyno, FINALLY, so I should be back on the dyno sometime early next week for my own tuning needs and also to find out if the update is going to happen or not.

As far as the vararam and 25mm spacer...I just don't know if is really even a thread starting subject. You basically have to do a little sculpting and just cut the rear neck to an angle until you are comfortable with the gap at the radiator. I actually used a die grinder with my 80 grit cartridge rolls that I use for porting since I had it next to me at the time of doing this. A dremel would work perfect too. Also note that the angle does not have to perfectly match up with the tip of the throttle body. The rear neck will line up straight with the top and bottom area regardless of the angle due to the red coupler that hold the rear neck and the throttle body together. You just have to focus on the front gap. Just shave off small amount at a time until you are comfortable with the gap.

Attachment 352062

I was going to take some pics for you guys today but I ended up making a mistake and spilled some engine degreaser on my maf and all over my vararam tray and filter. I spent most of the day today cleaning up the mess.

I will post up more pics for you guys sometime tomorrow

That's really interesting, have you ever shot those pictures over to the guys at Vararam to see what they thought? Might be worth doing to get how they think that angle would affect turbulence through the throttle body, chances are it's so slight it wouldn't make a difference but I'd be curious to hear what they say.

[bmorecam]

That pic I uploaded is actually the rear neck cut to a slant by vararam guys their self when we was having fitment issues last year. I asked Steve@vr already about this and he said that it was ok and shouldn't alter performance. I been checking my logs day and night for anything out of ordinary and from my timing, trims, to airflow is all good.

I know, those darn pics:what: I keep forgetting..I believe either Mach or ventmaster actually did a write up on this not to long ago.

Sent from my POS phone using tapatalk.

[Amenti]

Is it physically possible to stack one of the shorter MACE (maybe the mid-sized one; I don't remember the size) spacers on top of the Black-ICEolator without causing some sort of air leak? =P

[hapisok]

would "probably" work fine as long as you sealed it up good with gasket maker. i did notice after pulling the Black Ice off that it had some minor warping from what i believe was caused by heat stress. i think you could pair it up with the 25mm insulator, which will use all the available space up to the wiper cowl. but the term "keep it simple..." might be one of those things thats plays a role if you get too many moving pieces. guess its worth a shot. the Black Ice is right around 9-10mm think (leaning closer to 9 if i remember correctly).

[Indy Bumble Bee]

Originally Posted by SC2150

Well done. We respect the Mace products as we do any other porven competing products that we know are good and perform as advertised, direct competitor or not we post it like we see it and some dont want to here that (were talking all products we manufacture or endorse). When we praise a competitors product it has earned it, and the same as when we point out those falling short. Any that know us well know we do our evaluations based upon actual findings and dont play brand or corporate politics as so many do. I know many think it makes no sense to acknolwledge anothers products as good or great when they compete against us and then the personal ego's pop up and it can turn into blind side taking and that is never good for any involved. But as with other products we have praised, the Mace units perform as advertised and we respect them and what they have accomplished. You cant go worng with either.

Class act

[bmorecam]

I agree with hapi, but I wouldn't go pass 25mm, so as long as you can keep mace and vmax under 25mm mated together you should be fine. You guys will find out later why I am saying this Trust me

[Kmorpheus]

Vmax just needs to make a 25 MM Black Ice Plate. But I can't see them doing that to Mace. But what I can see is someone else doing it to both Vmax and Mace. It would be nice if they would combine their products into the Mace\Vmax Performace Heat Isolator.

[SSTREETKING]

Some peoples take vendor love to whole another level that is almost scary black ice infidelity

[hapisok]

Originally Posted by SSTREETKING

Some peoples take vendor love to whole another level that is almost scary black ice infidelity

Haha... too funny

[MACE_ENG]

Hapisok,

Well done on the review/testing, it basically validates what we’ve been saying all alone and that is it’s the runner length and not so much the cooler manifold that give the gains

Originally Posted by MACE_ENG

As noted, the main reason the spacers work is not so much that they keep they manifold cool (which they certainly do) but is the fact that change the savaging properties of the manifold. In that the manifold is working more efficiently base on the engine's operating limits. This is based on Helmholtz resonance principle.

To put things into perspective, they could be made out of aluminum and still reel off similar figures on a dyno. Sure repeatability and power consistence on the other hand would fall but that is a different characteristic which is certainly influenced by material properties (thermal conductivity) of the spacer.insulator.

As for what size spacer? We have 3 sizes to give people options (6,12 and 25mm), primarily based on fitment consideration for various firewall, bonnet, intake constraints.

Thickness of a spacer/insulator with regards to runner length, is usually directly proportional to the gains down low, which is inversely proportional to the top end. Generally the latter isn't an issue at all, unless you plan on increasing the factory rev limit or consistently spending your time upper RPM band for competition work or fixated about peak power figures.

If your car is a daily driver, predominately spending most of your time in the lower to mid rev range then you would probably want to consider running the largest spacer/insulator you can.

Understandably we can be seen as being biased (however we do sell three different sizes), but the physics indicates that "optimal" lower RPM manifold scavenging is achieved with longer runner, while the inverse is true with short runners. Both with the same diameter runners of course

Hope this helps
Steve

http://camaro5.com/forums/showpost.p...&postcount=404

Originally Posted by Ivan @ Southwest Speed

Wow...this is awesome.

Really fantastic to get this sort of info from the streets and not just from us vendors. It's one thing to hear it from all of us but when it comes from the customers I feel that it speaks volumes more than any of us ever could.

Thank you for taking the time and effort to share this with everybody here.

What a great forum.
Ivan @ Southwest Speed

Agreed! If testing is fairly conducted this is definitely a good thing for enthusiasts

Originally Posted by SC2150

Well done. We respect the Mace products as we do any other porven competing products that we know are good and perform as advertised, direct competitor or not we post it like we see it and some dont want to here that (were talking all products we manufacture or endorse). When we praise a competitors product it has earned it, and the same as when we point out those falling short. Any that know us well know we do our evaluations based upon actual findings and dont play brand or corporate politics as so many do. I know many think it makes no sense to acknolwledge anothers products as good or great when they compete against us and then the personal ego's pop up and it can turn into blind side taking and that is never good for any involved. But as with other products we have praised, the Mace units perform as advertised and we respect them and what they have accomplished. You cant go worng with either.

Likewise Tracy

To elaborate what Tracy has mentioned there is no right or wrong product here in this context, it just depends on your driving requirements as I’ve mentioned many times over

Originally Posted by Kmorpheus

I feel the Black Ice-Olator is the perfect fit for me, Really only drive my car on hot sunny days and the heat is a power killer.

Conservatively speaking, the reduction in heat transfer between the products based on their current designs and thickness are about the same. I say this as the black glass reinforced material used would conduct heat better than the material we use. Also being black has a tendency to absorb more radiant thermal energy then something of a lighter color. It’s for this reason black cars tend to heat up quicker in the sun then lighter colored ones.

Originally Posted by Mike Norris

Interesting test for sure. I would guess the mid-range gains are from the longer runner length. Plus it seems you have some quite extensive mods compared to what most folks are going to do to their cars.

What I would like to do is a test that more fits 90% of our customers from what I have seen. By that I mean is completely stock or minimal mods (VMax TB & CAI, No Tune, No Headers). This would be comparable to the testing I did for VMax and I think relate to a large portion of the buying market looking at these pieces.

Since Tracy was nice enough to send an ICE-olator out for free to test, maybe MACE would not mind sending one of the 25mm units out to me to test on a CAI/TB only car

If not, are there any US dealers for the MACE 25mm spacer kit? I would like to buy local (US) if at all possible.

Thanks!!

Mike Norris

Mike,

If anything the 25mm manifold insulator would work better on a stock car then the thinner varieties. I say this as with aftermarket gear such as an exhaust system, better intake etc, they tend to work best in the upper rev range. This is in contrast to the factory stuff which is restrictive higher in the rev range.

Therefore putting on an insulator which is more biased towards gains top end on a restrictive factory setup is counterproductive, unlike a thicker insulator which is more efficient down low being more compatible with the restrictive factory gear as it still flows relatively well in the lower to mid RPM ranges.

As for testing, I’m easy

The only catch is now days are that we need a bond for parts, which is refunded once the results are in.

Why? Well early on in the piece I actually sent a C5 member 3 sets of our insulators for testing (6, 12 and 25mm) for free. Claimed financial hardship, I offered to pay to on forward these items onto another enthusiast for testing, never heard from them again, then found out there were SELLING these insulator kit for $150 each!!!!!! And no I never saw a single dime from these sales.

Originally Posted by Kmorpheus

Vmax just needs to make a 25 MM Black Ice Plate. But I can't see them doing that to Mace. But what I can see is someone else doing it to both Vmax and Mace. It would be nice if they would combine their products into the Mace\Vmax Performace Heat Isolator.

Who knows what the future may bring I guess, honorable people are a rarity these days :( . All I can say in the present is that the heat transfer/reduction difference between the two products at the same thickness is negligible. Unless you wrap the manifold around with an insulated collar, you still have a noticeable amount of heat transfer due to convection and radiation. You just have to look at the surface area of the manifold which is still exposed, to appreciate where I’m coming from.

[hapisok]

So I stand corrected. The insulator will make even more of a drastic increase. And for those who aren't as heavily modded as myself...win win

[Mike Norris]

From MACE_ENG "Mike, If anything the 25mm manifold insulator would work better on a stock car then the thinner varieties. I say this as with aftermarket gear such as an exhaust system, better intake etc, they tend to work best in the upper rev range. This is in contrast to the factory stuff which is restrictive higher in the rev range.

Therefore putting on an insulator which is more biased towards gains top end on a restrictive factory setup is counterproductive, unlike a thicker insulator which is more efficient down low being more compatible with the restrictive factory gear as it still flows relatively well in the lower to mid RPM ranges.

As for testing, I’m easy

The only catch is now days are that we need a bond for parts, which is refunded once the results are in.

Why? Well early on in the piece I actually sent a C5 member 3 sets of our insulators for testing (6, 12 and 25mm) for free. Claimed financial hardship, I offered to pay to on forward these items onto another enthusiast for testing, never heard from them again, then found out there were SELLING these insulator kit for $150 each!!!!!! And no I never saw a single dime from these sales."

I understand about trusting folks for sure and that is why I said I would buy a set if need be. I only mentioned a free set as Tracy sent one of the VMax items out no problem.

I am only looking into getting a 25mm version right now as that what was tested here. If you want to make me a deal on all three I will consider it for sure. Feel free to PM me if you want. I am not looking into proving anything one way or the other, just curious as.

Let me know and thanks.

Mike Norris

[hapisok]

Mike,

Are you planning to do back to back pulls or provide ECU relearn time? I don't recall the process in which you tested the black ice...just curious about your plan of attack to compare these. There has been discussion before about the gains from the various sizes but nothing has been shown yet due to the issue Steve mentioned earlier. Can't wait to see what you come up with...

[bmorecam]

Originally Posted by MACE_ENG

Why? Well early on in the piece I actually sent a C5 member 3 sets of our insulators for testing (6, 12 and 25mm) for free. Claimed financial hardship, I offered to pay to on forward these items onto another enthusiast for testing, never heard from them again, then found out there were SELLING these insulator kit for $150 each!!!!!! And no I never saw a single dime from these sales.

I remember that. all I can say is SAD.

[Mike Norris]

Originally Posted by hapisok

Mike,

Are you planning to do back to back pulls or provide ECU relearn time? I don't recall the process in which you tested the black ice...just curious about your plan of attack to compare these. There has been discussion before about the gains from the various sizes but nothing has been shown yet due to the issue Steve mentioned earlier. Can't wait to see what you come up with...

Initially it will be back to back and I can then do driving and retest with the MACE on there. From what I have seen judging on the fuel trims that there is little if no learning going to happen with just the isolator swap. My testing from back to back and then after driven with the VMax piece was negligible, maybe picked up 1-2 HP and TQ at a few spots.

Waiting to hear back from MACE and we will go from there

Mike Norris