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Old 04-04-2012, 04:58 AM   #57
Bad@ssCamaro
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I found these dimension for aftermarket Recaro Seats that are street legal:

Backrest Height: 830 mm (32.7 inches)
Shoulder Width: 527 mm (20.7 inches)
Seat cushion Width: 535 mm (21.1 inches)
Maximum Seat Cushion Depth: 540 mm (21.3 inches)
Gross Weight: Sport: 37.5 lbs., Sport Topline: 45.2 lbs.

Thus I have a hard time believing that there would be a significant weight decrease from the factory seats unless there are more substantive numbers provided like weight for power seats mechanism and weight for the Gen 5 seats.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:19 AM   #58
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forget about the Horsepower number....why isn't there a 1LE sub-forum yet?
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Old 04-04-2012, 10:11 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
Not to question anyone's stats or intent, but here's a listing of GEN-FOUR CAMARO components, throughout the car:

http://www.lt1engines.com/tech/camar...f-body-weight/

Driver's 6-way Power Leather Seat = 42 lb.
Passanger's non-powered seat = 34lb.
Passanger Air Bag = 17 lb. (includes bracket)
Driver's Air Bag = 10 lb. (which is likely the weight of the seat bags)

So, removing TWO 6-way Seats (from a Gen-5) that contain TWO Air Bags is gonna total a bit over 100 total, imho. Add back the weight of the replacements (and their tracks/adjusters/adaptors), and you have a net weight loss of (maybe) 50-70 lb... One-piece seats will weigh less, but offer NO recline adjustment beyond fore-aft. Two-piece aftermarket seats, with adjustable seatbacks, will diminish the weight savings further. And typical aftermarket seats are NOT air bag-equipped.

Notice the difference in weight between non-powered and powered seats...6.9 lb/ea, so 1LS seats would save 14 lb (with Air Bags) over 1SS seats, while maintaining OE safety standards for street driving.

Notice deleting the rear seats (29 lb) and belts/retractors (5 lb) = less than ONE front seat...

Notice the A/C compressor and condensor, and Power Windows/Locks/Keyless weigh a total of 32 lb...which pops the "urban myth" that Gen-4 1LE F-cars weighed a LOT less...they didn't!
how much do you think the heater core in the 2SS seats weight? I can see you missing that weight addition. weather it be 2 lbs or 10 lbs. it's still weight that should be accounted for.
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We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name.
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Old 04-04-2012, 11:43 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by boxmonkeyracing View Post
how much do you think the heater core in the 2SS seats weight? I can see you missing that weight addition. weather it be 2 lbs or 10 lbs. it's still weight that should be accounted for.
...top of this page...

Remember, 1SS/1LE is cloth, 2SS/1LE is heated leather. I would expect the same Option would apply if/when the ZEE appears. I think there was "sufficient feedback" re: 1LE Surveys to see that cloth was made the Standard trim, as opposed to the leather-lined Concept @ SEMA '11...

So they ARE "listening"...
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:30 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
...top of this page...

Remember, 1SS/1LE is cloth, 2SS/1LE is heated leather. I would expect the same Option would apply if/when the ZEE appears. I think there was "sufficient feedback" re: 1LE Surveys to see that cloth was made the Standard trim, as opposed to the leather-lined Concept @ SEMA '11...

So they ARE "listening"...

Well since it's an option to the SS line up. I think they only made it available on what was out. if the SS only came in leather then that's what it would be. but since 1SS isn't leather that is the option you are getting with the 1SS.
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:00 PM   #62
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The initial "1LE Concept", revealed at SEMA '11, was a leather-trimmed car based on a 2SS...and added even more. POLLS ensued, at Mr. Settlemire's behest. "Should we build the 1LE AS SHOWN?" [my emphasis]

Poll #1: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197784

Eventually, after MUCH debate (as per Post #76 Page 4), a revised Yes or No poll was created: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200804

However...partly from the THREE questions asked and answered in the FIRST poll??...there is NOW a 1SS-based 1LE...which may NOT have happened had we simply had the Yes or No poll, first...
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:48 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
The initial "1LE Concept", revealed at SEMA '11, was a leather-trimmed car based on a 2SS...and added even more. POLLS ensued, at Mr. Settlemire's behest. "Should we build the 1LE AS SHOWN?" [my emphasis]

Poll #1: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197784

Eventually, after MUCH debate (as per Post #76 Page 4), a revised Yes or No poll was created: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200804

However...partly from the THREE questions asked and answered in the FIRST poll??...there is NOW a 1SS-based 1LE...which may NOT have happened had we simply had the Yes or No poll, first...
The whole concept of an LE is limited equipment with performance. I honestly don't care what the polls say. to be true to the LE concept the base 1SS is where is should have started. And everything should be an option there afterwards. And to me ordering a 2SS with the LE is kind of defeating the purpose of the LE concept. I'm not calling the camaro a luxury vehicle but the 2SS has a lot of luxury over the 1SS.

but if I ordered an LE and wanted leather seats I should add that option. If I wanted a hud I should add that option.

The Polls could have been done to prove a point. two thoughts behind the scenes one saying it should only be made one way and another with the truest mind set of the LE concept. And the polls only reconfirmed that.
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We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name.
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Old 04-04-2012, 02:58 PM   #64
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LE, as applied generally within automotive-dom, equates to Limited EDITION, or Luxury EDITION.

1LE, as chosen by GM in '88, was NOT "One - Limited Equipment"...it was simply a 3-digit alpha-numeric as used by GM for ALL equipment and options. Just as Z28 was a rather randomly-chosen Option Code, "next on the list". Coulda been Z29...or W86...or... And the "Z" in Z28 is NOT reference to Zora Arkus-Duntov, as a certain "wives tale" had it...

There is NO DIRECT MEANING for the "LE" in "1LE"...
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Old 04-04-2012, 03:01 PM   #65
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right. agree to disagree on this one.
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We do not want to use the Z28 moniker on a car that does not deserve this hallowed name.
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Old 04-04-2012, 03:11 PM   #66
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Some background:

http://ve3eie.ncf.ca/1le_history.html

http://www.cartersclassicmusclecars....g%20series.htm

We raced in the '86 GM/Player's Challenge Series (finished 6th Overall), when GM-Canada engineers Bill Ball and Earl Dickenson (the guy who brought fellow-competitor Ron Fellows to Herb Fishel's attention @ GM Racing) were developing "upgrades" to keep the IROCs and T/As on-track from failing brakes...developments which became the core of the '88-on 1LE Program.

The reason we finished 6th, in '86? We stayed home from the Canadian Grand Prix support race event in Montreal because of...YUUUP!...brake issues... If we'd raced and finished 24th or better in that race (many spots below our worst finish, the rest of the season), we'd have WON the Series...
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Old 04-04-2012, 03:25 PM   #67
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quoted from your first link, which I had already read before.

So the 1LE option became more than just a brake upgrade. And in order to keep these specially-equipped race Camaros as light as possible and out of the hands of just any buyer, Chevrolet decided to delete air conditioning and all power amenities from the 1LE-equipped Camaros. This, they thought, was surely enough to turn away all but the most devoted racers.


like I said. agree to disagree.
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:20 PM   #68
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From '88 to '92 (Gen-3), Air Conditioning was NOT standard equipment...it was part of PEGs 1-2-3...which could NOT be ordered with 1LE, which WAS in fact:

"G92 Performance Axle Package", (without C60 A/C [non-PEG, therefore Base Model only]) $675 including 4WDB with Special HD Front Disc Brake Package, Aluminum Driveshaft and Spare Wheel, Performance Exhaust System, Engine Oil Cooler and Special Shocks (deletes Standard Driving Lights). [THIS is the 1LE Package]

"G92 Performance Axle Package", (with C60 A/C) $465 including Performance Exhaust System, Engine Oil Cooler and 4WDB.

Page 87 of the pdf file: http://www.gmheritagecenter.com/gm-h...let-Camaro.pdf

All PEGs (1-2-3) included Body Side Moulding and Floor Mats, which 1LEs did not receive either (unless ordered individually, or added later).

So, in truth, the ONLY DELETE in a Gen-3 "1LE" was the Front Driving Lights...and the area they opened up made a great place to run Front Brake Cooling Ducts, when/where allowed...

What Gen-3 "1LE" cars WERE was Option-Restricted...and featured some unique-to-them components.

Last edited by LOWDOWN; 04-04-2012 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:37 PM   #69
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I was just reading the new issue of gmhtp, in that's issue they test a 12 gs corvette manual. With the handbuilt ls3, it layed down 415rwhp. I wonder if there's any chance of this being the ls3 they will use, in wet sump form.
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:46 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
From '88 to '92 (Gen-3), Air Conditioning was NOT standard equipment...it was part of PEGs 1-2-3...which could NOT be ordered with 1LE, which WAS in fact:

"G92 Performance Axle Package", (without C60 A/C [non-PEG, therefore Base Model only]) $675 including 4WDB with Special HD Front Disc Brake Package, Aluminum Driveshaft and Spare Wheel, Performance Exhaust System, Engine Oil Cooler and Special Shocks (deletes Standard Driving Lights). [THIS is the 1LE Package]

"G92 Performance Axle Package", (with C60 A/C) $465 including Performance Exhaust System, Engine Oil Cooler and 4WDB.

Page 87 of the pdf file: http://www.gmheritagecenter.com/gm-h...let-Camaro.pdf

All PEGs (1-2-3) included Body Side Moulding and Floor Mats, which 1LEs did not receive either (unless ordered individually, or added later).

So, in truth, the ONLY DELETE in a Gen-3 "1LE" was the Front Driving Lights...and the area they opened up made a great place to run Front Brake Cooling Ducts, when/where allowed...

What "1LE" cars WERE was Option-Restricted...and featured some unique-to-them components.
per you're argument you just used. So one then could surmise that your sources could be wrong. I quoted a source you provided and now you are arguing against that same source.

1LE limited your equipment and options. I've also stated the they were meant for more performance. you can take that as meant for racing. Now, This is where we differ. I honestly believe the LE reference did have a meaning behind it and wasn't just some arbitrary designation, ie z28. And nothing you've shown me has honestly proven that I am wrong. When in fact the options and equipment you receive when you ordered a 1LE did limit things.

This is why I've sat here and said lets just agree to disagree. I'm sorry if you feel that you must persuade me to believe you. but I just don't care enough to go ask the people that developed the original 1LE what they meant, if anything.

and again we can/should agree to disagree because this is an argument that is pointless. Better sources for history are a must if you want to prove something, and then don't contradict them in your very next post.
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