My long awaited cam install has begun

[IDEALG]

Originally Posted by NC-V

Sounds about right, you check intake and exhaust?

yes im good to go got to degree it and check my ptv clearances now.

[thahemp]

Really interesting thread for me.

Could one of you take a moment and explain what you mean by the lifter pushrod cup collapsing? I can't seem to visualize what you're talking about.

[IDEALG]

Originally Posted by thahemp

Really interesting thread for me.

Could one of you take a moment and explain what you mean by the lifter pushrod cup collapsing? I can't seem to visualize what you're talking about.

just means the lifter is compressing. when he said cup he was referring to the cup like shaped part of the lifter that the pushrod pushes on.

[thahemp]

So they could collapse because they have a preload on them and they need to be fully extended in order to get an accurate reading with your dial indicator.. but the light spring should be sufficient to keep them from collapsing?

I think I understand what it going on now

Thanks.

[IDEALG]

Originally Posted by thahemp

So they could collapse because they have a preload on them and they need to be fully extended in order to get an accurate reading with your dial indicator.. but the light spring should be sufficient to keep them from collapsing?

I think I understand what it going on now

Thanks.

that's correct, so were hoping it doesnt collapse when using the dial indicator and light spring so we get an acurate reading.

[thahemp]

Cool. Thanks for the brain swelling! I'm eagerly waiting to see how this oil pump goes back on. I'd like to try to tackle this someday when I have a week to spare. Excellent work, keep it up!

[IDEALG]

So I said screw it and i spun the motor around by hand to see if the valve would hit the piston because if it did i would have to take the heads off anyway so who cares if i mess up the valve. anyway it didn't hit so now i can check the cam and get it set at 109 intake center line. Then i will use the light spring and check if i have enough ptv clearance.

ok moving on

[NC-V]

Wait, did you spin the motor over by hand with it set up like in the picture above with the stock springs on the valves? If so you def squeezed the oil out of the lifters. If you can push the pushrod down by hand then the oil is drained out of the lifter.

[IDEALG]

Originally Posted by NC-V

Wait, did you spin the motor over by hand with it set up like in the picture above with the stock springs on the valves? If so you def squeezed the oil out of the lifters. If you can push the pushrod down by hand then the oil is drained out of the lifter.

yes i did it one rotation

[IDEALG]

your right im f-ed now. i can push it down.
guess i'll move to the next cylinder and install the light spring there. i'll do that later, have to run out for a bit

[IDEALG]

the cam is at 112 degrees intake center line, i need it at 109. gotta pull the timing set of now and adjust it.

[thahemp]

Very curious to see what happens next. I hope i's not as big of a deal as it sounds.
So a full rotation with full tension on the springs on the remaining lifters actually forced the oil out of the engine?

[IDEALG]

Originally Posted by thahemp

Very curious to see what happens next. I hope i's not as big of a deal as it sounds.
So a full rotation with full tension on the springs on the remaining lifters actually forced the oil out of the engine?

Yes if i put the pushrod in with no rocker arm i can push down on the pushrod, you shouldn't be able to. so i moved everything to cylinder #3 the next cylinder over. not a big deal.

[IDEALG]

I have a new problem now though. I'm having a hard time getting exact ptv clearance. I got the light spring set up and the dial indicator, I adjusted the rocker to zero lash and then checked for max lift it wasn't right so i set the lifter back on the base circle and checked zero lash and it was loose so i did it again. well i had to do it three times before i got to my max lift. Then I started to check ptv clearance as the valve opened and its not looking good, if everything is set up right i'm at .040" so i called it a night.
now this morning i wanted to check it again and in different places but now i'm getting more lift from the valve then i'm suppose to so something isn't right. i need to check everything again.

[CGT]

Originally Posted by IDEALG

I have a new problem now though. I'm having a hard time getting exact ptv clearance. I got the light spring set up and the dial indicator, I adjusted the rocker to zero lash and then checked for max lift it wasn't right so i set the lifter back on the base circle and checked zero lash and it was loose so i did it again. well i had to do it three times before i got to my max lift. Then I started to check ptv clearance as the valve opened and its not looking good, if everything is set up right i'm at .040" so i called it a night.
now this morning i wanted to check it again and in different places but now i'm getting more lift from the valve then i'm suppose to so something isn't right. i need to check everything again.

Are you getting your .040 on the intake? At 109 Intake centerline? If so, backing the cam up to 111 should get you .015-.020 more, at the expense of clearance on the exhaust side. .040 wouldnt be the end of the world on the intake side to me, but to run one that close I'd wanna check all the cylinders to make sure there were none closer than that.

[IDEALG]

Originally Posted by CGT

Are you getting your .040 on the intake? At 109 Intake centerline? If so, backing the cam up to 111 should get you .015-.020 more, at the expense of clearance on the exhaust side. .040 wouldnt be the end of the world on the intake side to me, but to run one that close I'd wanna check all the cylinders to make sure there were none closer than that.

I want it on 109 , so if its too close after checking it again and checking the exhaust i'm just going to pull the motor. i'm not going to screw around with flycutting in the car. i'll just buy a rotating assembly or something. i dont know yet.

[thahemp]

Originally Posted by IDEALG

Yes if i put the pushrod in with no rocker arm i can push down on the pushrod, you shouldn't be able to. so i moved everything to cylinder #3 the next cylinder over. not a big deal.

Ah.. I finally figured out what actually happened. I didn't realize they were hydraulic lifters.

[IDEALG]

Originally Posted by thahemp

Ah.. I finally figured out what actually happened. I didn't realize they were hydraulic lifters.

yup

[CGT]

Originally Posted by IDEALG

I want it on 109 , so if its too close after checking it again and checking the exhaust i'm just going to pull the motor. i'm not going to screw around with flycutting in the car. i'll just buy a rotating assembly or something. i dont know yet.

Why so sold on installing at 109? Ive dynoed enough engines on the engine dyno, moving cam positions, to know that in general, most of the time, that 2 degrees isnt gonna make or break things. I've seen where advancing and retarding camshafts can do the opposite of what its supposed to do as well. Advancing a cam is not a guarantee of more low speed torque or a stronger concentration of torque at lower engine speeds. Just the same as retarding a cam isnt a guarantee of more top end power. The last engine i dynoed, picked up considerable power from 3000 rpm on up by retarding the cam 4 degrees. Either way, hope you get it all sorted out soon. Im eager to see and hear the results.

[IDEALG]

Originally Posted by CGT

Why so sold on installing at 109? Ive dynoed enough engines on the engine dyno, moving cam positions, to know that in general, most of the time, that 2 degrees isnt gonna make or break things. I've seen where advancing and retarding camshafts can do the opposite of what its supposed to do as well. Advancing a cam is not a guarantee of more low speed torque or a stronger concentration of torque at lower engine speeds. Just the same as retarding a cam isnt a guarantee of more top end power. The last engine i dynoed, picked up considerable power from 3000 rpm on up by retarding the cam 4 degrees. Either way, hope you get it all sorted out soon. Im eager to see and hear the results.

Because i want it to work like designed so it needs to match the cam card.
I want the valves opening at the right time.
I'm getting a faulty reading though so now i have to start over and find top dead center again and make sure my degree wheel didn't move.

i'll have to do it later though because im working on my volunteer grinders cars at the moment <- another thread in the trans section.

[thahemp]

So let's say you weren't going to pull the motor, and for whatever reason you were going to proceed with .040" clearance and you needed to verify all of the cylinders had enough clearance.

How would you go about checking the 1 cylinder with no oil pressure to hold the push-rod up? Also, what would be the procedure for re-pressurizing the oil system? Seems like maybe it would be dangerous to re-pressurize that lifter when the push-rod can be in an unknown position.

[IDEALG]

Originally Posted by thahemp

So let's say you weren't going to pull the motor, and for whatever reason you were going to proceed with .040" clearance and you needed to verify all of the cylinders had enough clearance.

How would you go about checking the 1 cylinder with no oil pressure to hold the push-rod up? Also, what would be the procedure for re-pressurizing the oil system? Seems like maybe it would be dangerous to re-pressurize that lifter when the push-rod can be in an unknown position.

To be honest because its my own car i wouldn't even bother and after checking all the other cylinders if they were close to the same i wouldn't even worry about that first cylinder.
you can easily make a fitting that you could bolt to the holes where the oil pump bolts to and pressurize the oil system

For what ever reason i'm coming up with the intake valve opening 6 degrees after top dead center and its suppose to be 6 degrees before top dead center. So i need to figure out that first but i haven't gone back in there yet to work on it.

[thahemp]

I wonder if it would be a good idea to try and find an old lifter before I ever attempt any of this that I can take apart and shim. Seems like it would eliminate a lot of uncertainty, and doesn't appear to be difficult to do at all.

This is still a project that is years down the road for me, but you've pushed me to do more research on the subject than I've ever done before. Thanks for that.

[IDEALG]

Originally Posted by thahemp

I wonder if it would be a good idea to try and find an old lifter before I ever attempt any of this that I can take apart and shim. Seems like it would eliminate a lot of uncertainty, and doesn't appear to be difficult to do at all.

This is still a project that is years down the road for me, but you've pushed me to do more research on the subject than I've ever done before. Thanks for that.

to take the lifters out you have to remove the heads, if you remove the heads its a lot easier to degree the cam . i'm not certain but i believe they make solid roller lifters too so you could just swap one of those in place for measurements.

[CGT]

I have a couple LS lifters with the pushrod cup tack welded solid for checking purposes. But like IDEAL mentioned, it doesnt solve the problem of having to remove the heads to use one.