Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Rick@Livernois
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > General Camaro Forums > Camaro Price | Ordering | Tracking | Dealers Discussions

Camaro Price | Ordering | Tracking | Dealers Discussions Discuss pricing and ordering experiences.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-01-2007, 07:46 PM   #1
Mike88
 
Mike88's Avatar
 
Drives: 94 Camaro, 05 Magnum
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Toronto/Montreal
Posts: 138
what to expect?

I have never bought a bran new car before and I'm just wondering what to expect when I get my new Camaro (asides from the new car smell) from a few of you who have. I'm just looking for advice on things like:

-should I order the factory rust-proofing or get it done elsewhere?
-do I buy the extended warranty?
-are there any gimmicks salesmen will try to rope me into?

etc, etc, etc...

Thanks in advance.
Mike88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2007, 09:15 PM   #2
Mr. Wyndham
I used to be Dragoneye...
 
Mr. Wyndham's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 Camaro 1LE
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 25,787
Send a message via AIM to Mr. Wyndham
This is just my personal opinion on these few topics...can't really think of any others at the moment
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike88 View Post

-should I order the factory rust-proofing or get it done elsewhere?
I didn't think they still have that, being as how each vehicle is rust-proofed from the factory. In fact, there is a bit in the driver's manual - or some such document, where GM claims that no additional rust-proofing is needed, nor is it reccomended.

-do I buy the extended warranty?
This is a matter of personal preference. Do you think you're gonna need it?

-are there any gimmicks salesmen will try to rope me into?
Quite possibly, it depends on the salesmen, and what gimmicks may be 'available' for the Camaro.
__________________
"Keep the faith." - - Read Before You Post.
SIGN UP for 2014 Camaro5 HPDE @ Gingerman Raceway!
Mr. Wyndham is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2007, 11:25 PM   #3
z28camaro2471
C5 Member #227
 
z28camaro2471's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaros
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NY
Posts: 787
You didn't ask about pricing, but might as well cover it. If you buy right away, don't expect much "wiggle" room with respect to the cost. Wait a while and you'll be able to get them below sticker and maybe even a rebate.

Rustproofing. No.

Extended warranty. Depends on how long you plan to keep it. If longer than GM's warranty, then probably yes. With the complexity of today's cars, you could cover the cost of the warranty with one repair.
z28camaro2471 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 12:03 AM   #4
DGthe3
Moderator.ca
 
DGthe3's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Grand Am GT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Niagara, Canada
Posts: 22,006
Send a message via MSN to DGthe3
I never bought a new car either, don't remember my parents doing it either (i'm only 22). But anything that I have heard is that most of what you are concerned about is a money grab. As far as warranties go, its hard to say. If you plan on keeping it (in stock form) for a long time, maybe. Reliability is tricky. There is always a chance that you get a lemon. Or you could have something that will run beautifully in 40 years without problems. And you never know what it will be until it happens
__________________
Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them
__________________
don't believe a thing you read about the next gen Camaro -- as history has proven time and time again:

WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT FUTURE PRODUCT PLANS PERIOD FbodFather
__________________

Camaro5 Fest sub-forum
DGthe3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 03:18 AM   #5
Good53X
 
Drives: 1988Nissan Pulsar (meh,beater)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 83
The warranty is an insurance plan. You'll have factory warranties for more common ****ups - Usually powertrain is 60,000km, 5 years and that will cover everything in the engine/transmission except for a clutch to the best of my knowledge... shitty head gasket or bad manifolds and they'll be covered. If you're worried about trim damage... don't f*** with your trim.

Convertible top? High end stereo system that you might blow out? Are those things worth the trouble?

I work in a dealership, and it is retarted how much people get away with putting on Warranty repairs. However, it's amazing how much warranty's don't cover.

When you get a prepaid maintenance plan, make sure that you're getting full maintenance. A lot of Ford prepaid maintenance isn't everything that Ford recommends, it is a slightly different maintenance schedule.

When I get mine I'm going to be an anal customer. I plan on test driving the camaro at every GM dealership, checking out their service departments and reading reviews before taking the plunge. Then I'm going to sit down and talk about exactly what will and won't be covered before I decide to get any extended warranty garbage... I don't think I'll be taking it.
Good53X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 06:48 AM   #6
stovt001


 
stovt001's Avatar
 
Drives: 2006 Cobalt, 2004 Taurus wagon
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 3,817
Here's my dealership advice:
1. Do your homework before you go in. Find out if the dealer is doing markups, sticking to MSRP, or allowing negotiations. Go on Edmunds.com and find out the invoice and true market value of the car and the options you want. With just a little research you'll probably end up knowing more than the salesman. The more you know, the more power you have over him, which brings me to...
2. Take control of the meeting. Don't let the salesman show you around. Take him to the car you want, tell him what you want. Dictate everything.
3. If you can negotiate the price, negotiate around the full cost of the car, not the monthly payments. They can charge you double the sticker price and still make the monthly payments look good. The best way is to negotiate everything separately. If your bank or (even better) credit union offers financing at a lower rate than the lender the dealership uses (which is often the case) get financing from your institution ahead of time. That way you go in with the terms of the loan already established. Likewise, negotiate trade-in value (if any) separately. Often they will try roll the value into your monthly payment so you don't see how much they're actually giving you for the car. Don't let them do that. Negotiate the full value of the trade in and make sure it is acceptable before even talking about the cost of the car. Then negotiate the car's price itself. Don't mention monthly payments. Just get the price of the car, taxes, registration, etc etc etc. all set in one "walking out the door price" of $XX,XXX.XX. If you already got financing from your own lender, then hand over the check and enjoy your new car. If you are going through the dealership's financing, then negotiate payment terms, but DO NOT let them change the final figure. Interest is the only thing that should change.
4. Any add-ons advocated by the F&I department are generally not worth it. The dealer makes very, very little money on the car itself. Almost all of their profits come from F&I add-ons and service. As such the profit margins are huge and therefore the value to you is usually not anywhere near the cost.

I used to work at a dealership, and those are my personal observations. If you want any more advice let me know. I know how these things work inside out.
stovt001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 01:56 PM   #7
EllwynX


 
EllwynX's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro SS
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Southern NJ
Posts: 2,260
An extended warranty depends on whether you plan to keep it stock, and plan to keep it past the factory warranty terms.

Dealers often try to tack on various xtras. The only one I've ever gotten that I felt was worth the money (even though I will probably never use it) was Gap Insurance. I only paid $250 for it though.
EllwynX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 02:13 PM   #8
Moose
Moderator
 
Moose's Avatar
 
Drives: '99 Camaro SS #1392
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Newtown, Pa.
Posts: 4,015
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike88 View Post
-should I order the factory rust-proofing or get it done elsewhere?
-do I buy the extended warranty?
-are there any gimmicks salesmen will try to rope me into?

etc, etc, etc...

Thanks in advance.
1. "rust-proofing" I recall when I was younger, my Dad always got his cars rust proofed at the time he bought the car. But, I do not believe today's car receive "rust proofing" in the same sense that the dealer applies a black, "tar like" substance to the undercarriage. I believe todays cars are treated prior to painting for protection. Personally, I've never had it done to any of my cars, and I've never had a problem.

2. extended warranty Not a bad idea, provided when included in your car payments, you're able to afford it. Also, if you plan on buying the Camaro in it's first year, you may choose to extend the warranty. My Dad always avoided new cars in their first year. (I'm not saying there will be any 1st yr. quality issues, nor am I doubting the quality of the new Camaro.) Also, with the price of dealer labor, an extended warranty may be cheaper in the end.

3. dealer gimmicks Best advice, TAKE YOUR TIME! Shop different dealers. I'm not saying all dealers are "out to get you", but some salespeople may try to sell you "things" you don't really need. Also, use the internet when the time comes to buy your Camaro.
Moose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 09:30 PM   #9
Mike88
 
Mike88's Avatar
 
Drives: 94 Camaro, 05 Magnum
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Toronto/Montreal
Posts: 138
This is some really great advice guys..thanks! I'll do my hmwk on dealers and go in with the facts and specs on the car I want.

stovt001...by F&I do you mean finish and interior? That's my best guess. If so, are you talking about things like ash trays and cup holders? I mean what else would I want installed on the car that doesn't come from the factory?

Also, when you say don't let the saleperson lead you to the car and that you should bring them to the car you want, are you implying that I'll be driving the car right out of the showroom or off the lot? Like I said, I have no idea how this works...I just always figured you had to wait around a couple of days while the dealership got the car ready or placed an order for it from GM.

I do all work on my cars myself so I'm sorta curious about the warranty and extended warranties. Its definitely going to be wierd driving around a car that I won't be fixing any problems myself. But, with the roads around here resembling those of a third world country, I'm wondering if things like tie rods and ball joints are covered? I'm assuming they won't be.

Also, will I be able to put something as simple as a K&N CAI without voiding the warranty? What about factory tints...will we be able to order this car with tinted windows from the factory or will this be something the dealer takes care of? If that's the case I'll probably look for or an aftermarket installer.
Mike88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 10:53 PM   #10
Jak
 
Jak's Avatar
 
Drives: 03 Dodge Dakota
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New York
Posts: 627
The rust proofing on my truck(ten years of free touch ups as often as I want) just more then paid for its self, spotted some rusting below my left rear window. Had the company check it out, basically said "Yup it's rust." an two weeks later sent me an apporval notice for $495.00 to have the body work done, no charge.
As far as the Extended Warranty , I've never had it figured into my payments. Pay cash for it if you can, no sence in making your payments any higher/ sorry same thing goes for the under coating, pay cash for that as well if you can afford it.
Jak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 10:54 PM   #11
The_Stache
SoCal Race Team #13
 
The_Stache's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS:RS:LS3:SW
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 1,720
Also check your banks or credit union for auto services.. My credit union will actually just have me list what model/color/options I want and go find the car for me, get it at 500 over invoice and literally call me down to the CREDIT UNION to do a test drive of the car. They will also do the trade in and sign the papers .. all at the bank.. without me ever having to talk to a sales man.

It is my first game plan when I get around to purchasing my camaro. The only catch is I CANT order a vehicle. It has to be in stock to go this route.. so personally am going to wait about 6 months for the phoenix dealerships to get a good solid stock before having them go look for my baby. If this doesn't work its plan B which is following what everyone else has said so far.

PS - for me this service is free, some banks might charge a fee.. but usually its under $100.00 if they do and to me even that would be worth it.
__________________
A.K.A - Diarmadhi (old handle) - So much to do.. So little money
Owner : Fast-Stache Industries LLC
The_Stache is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2007, 11:02 PM   #12
Mike88
 
Mike88's Avatar
 
Drives: 94 Camaro, 05 Magnum
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Toronto/Montreal
Posts: 138
^ Just curious...isn't going down to the dealership half the fun of getting a new car? I'm pretty sure i'll want to do all that stuff for myself.
Mike88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 06:37 AM   #13
stovt001


 
stovt001's Avatar
 
Drives: 2006 Cobalt, 2004 Taurus wagon
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 3,817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike88 View Post
This is some really great advice guys..thanks! I'll do my hmwk on dealers and go in with the facts and specs on the car I want.

stovt001...by F&I do you mean finish and interior? That's my best guess. If so, are you talking about things like ash trays and cup holders? I mean what else would I want installed on the car that doesn't come from the factory?

Also, when you say don't let the saleperson lead you to the car and that you should bring them to the car you want, are you implying that I'll be driving the car right out of the showroom or off the lot? Like I said, I have no idea how this works...I just always figured you had to wait around a couple of days while the dealership got the car ready or placed an order for it from GM.
I'm sorry, sometimes I lapse back into dealership speak and forget that not everyone else knows what I'm talking about. F&I is Finance and Insurance. They work out payment options and sell things like extended warranties, gap insurance, maintenance plans, lojack, etc.

The process can work two ways, depending as you said on whether you pick a car from the dealer's stock or you have them order a car.

If you're not very picky about how you want your car set up, or you get lucky and find the exact car you want in their stock (you can check inventories online on the dealer's website or Chevy's, but call ahead because they are not always up-to-date) then you go the the dealer, and a salesman will almost certainly jump to meet you as soon as you get there. Tell him what you want, he should take you to the car (if it is still there). Do the test drive, and if you still want it, you go into negotiations. At this point you hammer out the price of the car, plus discuss things like dealer accessories. Once this is done you'll move on to F&I, which will finalize the financing details that you worked out with the salesman (they might try to change them to their advantage, so be careful) and also sell you the products I mentioned above. During this time the salesman will have the car washed, polished, etc, and when you're done with F&I he'll have the car waiting for you. He'll demonstrate how to use everything, give you final instructions on maintenance, etc, and a final walk-around, then you drive it off the lot.

If you order your car, first go to the dealership and test drive one that is as mechanically similar to the car you want that you can find. Then tell the salesman you want to special order one. They'll probably require a refundable deposit. You'll fill out a slip to order the car, and then when it comes in a few months later go through the same experience I noted above.
stovt001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 11:34 AM   #14
Mike88
 
Mike88's Avatar
 
Drives: 94 Camaro, 05 Magnum
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Toronto/Montreal
Posts: 138
^ months? :eek:

I figured maybe a few days or a week. Okay so I'll try not to be too picky.

Next question: say I decide to take a car that the dealer already has on the lot...will I get to test the precise vehicle I want before I agree to purchase it? I see why dealers have tester vehicles, because you wouldn't want ppl testing the vehicle prior to your purchase of it, but at the same time I wouldn't want to buy anything without having driven it (and not just the tester car) first.
Mike88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 12:08 PM   #15
DGthe3
Moderator.ca
 
DGthe3's Avatar
 
Drives: 05 Grand Am GT
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Niagara, Canada
Posts: 22,006
Send a message via MSN to DGthe3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike88 View Post
^ months? :eek:

I figured maybe a few days or a week. Okay so I'll try not to be too picky.
When in doubt, go with 6-8 weeks for shipping. Figure, the factory will be making around 3000 cars a week for worldwide sales based on GM's sales predictions. So while it may be only a day or two to make the car from start to finish plus a few more to get it sent out, there will be a long line of people and dealers in front of you. I'm sure that as time passes the line will get shorter, though that may take quite a while. I think that a good way to estimate is in March, pretend you are going to buy a mustang and ask the dealer how long it would take to get the car you want. Do the same thing at a dodge dealer with the Challenger. Split the difference and you should get a good estimate for the wait time of the Camaro.
__________________
Note, if I've gotten any facts wrong in the above, just ignore any points I made with them
__________________
don't believe a thing you read about the next gen Camaro -- as history has proven time and time again:

WE DO NOT TALK ABOUT FUTURE PRODUCT PLANS PERIOD FbodFather
__________________

Camaro5 Fest sub-forum
DGthe3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 12:53 PM   #16
The_Stache
SoCal Race Team #13
 
The_Stache's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS:RS:LS3:SW
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Posts: 1,720
Quote:
^ Just curious...isn't going down to the dealership half the fun of getting a new car?
Uh no, I hate even going to the dealership for service.. personally if I could avoid a dealer all my life I will. I don't want to spend 4-5 hours of my life haggling for an item.. Im the type of guy that I research and know exactly what I want and at what price and my time is better spent doing other activities.
__________________
A.K.A - Diarmadhi (old handle) - So much to do.. So little money
Owner : Fast-Stache Industries LLC
The_Stache is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 01:16 PM   #17
stovt001


 
stovt001's Avatar
 
Drives: 2006 Cobalt, 2004 Taurus wagon
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: California
Posts: 3,817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike88 View Post
^ months? :eek:

I figured maybe a few days or a week. Okay so I'll try not to be too picky.

Next question: say I decide to take a car that the dealer already has on the lot...will I get to test the precise vehicle I want before I agree to purchase it? I see why dealers have tester vehicles, because you wouldn't want ppl testing the vehicle prior to your purchase of it, but at the same time I wouldn't want to buy anything without having driven it (and not just the tester car) first.
Yes, for the most part ordering a car to your specifications takes a matter of months. Reserving cars in our inventory pipeline for specific customers was one of my main jobs at the dealership. Most of the orders weren't strictly custom orders, they were more like reserving a car that was coming to us anyway. My boss handled the true custom orders. Even for a car that was allocated to our dealership but not built yet, it would take a few months. Of course cars assembled in North America arrive sooner than those built overseas, but it is still a matter of months, either way.

And yes, you always should test drive the exact vehicle you're going to buy. If you're just looking in general (such as trying to decide between a Challenger, Mustang, or Camaro, or even just different configurations for the Camaro) then they might put you in a dedicated test drive vehicle, but that is rare, at least where I come from. Even if they do, when you decide you really do want to buy a specific car, whether it is in the dealer's inventory or you have it ordered, test drive it before you finalize the deal just to make sure there isn't anything immediately noticeable that's wrong with it.

Oh one last thing. If the dealer you go to doesn't have the exact vehicle you're looking for, but another dealer does then often you can have them arrange a dealer trade, and that will take only a few days.
stovt001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2007, 09:45 PM   #18
Good53X
 
Drives: 1988Nissan Pulsar (meh,beater)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 83
I honestly plan on walking into every dealership and asking them what the lower price they will give me is.

"I want a 5th gen camaro convertible with [this engine], manual transmission, cloth seats, and a stock stereo. What is the lowest price you can give me?"

Then I'll just go to whatever dealer will give me the lowest price. It's a little bit of leg work, but it could end up saving me a thousand bucks. That, and I get to feel out all the different dealerships - which, to me, is worth it. I'd rather give 500$ more to someone I like than 500$ less to someone who doesn't deserve the money.
Good53X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2007, 02:16 AM   #19
Emher
Pillaging Viking
 
Emher's Avatar
 
Drives: Saab 9-5 '99 (Hey it's a GM!)
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,205
Send a message via MSN to Emher Send a message via Yahoo to Emher Send a message via Skype™ to Emher
^Unfortunatly for me that isn't an option. I know of ONE, yes ONE, dealer in this part of the country that sells American Chevrolet's. On the other hand they seem really good, but it kinda sucks having but one option.


EDIT: well well well, after some searching I've actually managed to find about two more, so I might have the option of comparing prices. Then there's always the matter of other services that the dealer offers. If one of them has a solid reputation and good service shop, I'll probably go with them even if I have to pay a few K more.
__________________
"Fifty years from now, when you're looking back at your life, don't you want to be able to say you had the guts to get in the car?"

Last edited by Emher; 12-04-2007 at 09:12 AM.
Emher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2007, 08:17 AM   #20
acscamarochick06
Chevrolet Enthusiast
 
acscamarochick06's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Camaro SS ;)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Bowling Green, Kentucky
Posts: 807
lol We should all just read "What To Expect When You're Expecting"!
__________________
acscamarochick06 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2007, 12:32 PM   #21
TAG UR IT
www.Camaro5store.com
 
TAG UR IT's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 ZL1 #705
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SA, Texas
Posts: 26,314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good53X View Post
I honestly plan on walking into every dealership and asking them what the lower price they will give me is.

"I want a 5th gen camaro convertible with [this engine], manual transmission, cloth seats, and a stock stereo. What is the lowest price you can give me?"

Then I'll just go to whatever dealer will give me the lowest price. It's a little bit of leg work, but it could end up saving me a thousand bucks. That, and I get to feel out all the different dealerships - which, to me, is worth it. I'd rather give 500$ more to someone I like than 500$ less to someone who doesn't deserve the money.
Make sure that when someone says x amount of dollars, that you get their name and number on a business card. When you go to the next place, let them give you a price quote. If it's above what the last place said, pull out hte card w/ the amount written on it and let the new guy know...bob said x amount at this dealer. Ask if he'll beat it. He will. Then, get his card and amount on card. Go to next dealer and repeat. Eventually, you will get to a bottom end that no one will want to beat.
TAG UR IT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2007, 10:57 PM   #22
Scotsman
Auto Pilot
 
Scotsman's Avatar
 
Drives: Gunmetal
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: L.A.
Posts: 1,307
I'd think by now that "rust" would not be a problem because of advanced automotive manufacturing technology.
__________________
"Let the rest of the world dream of Ferraris, Lamborghinis and dinky little British two-seaters. In this country speed doesn't look like that." Got SS?
Scotsman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 04:01 AM   #23
Good53X
 
Drives: 1988Nissan Pulsar (meh,beater)
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Posts: 83
Tag, very good point. I hadn't though about the ability for dealerships to 'one-up' eachother in competition, eventually providing me with the bottom line
Good53X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 10:43 AM   #24
TAG UR IT
www.Camaro5store.com
 
TAG UR IT's Avatar
 
Drives: 2014 ZL1 #705
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: SA, Texas
Posts: 26,314
Make sure you call over the phone to save your self the leg work. That's what we did to get the old S10 at $200 over invoice. When I bought that truck, I made the comment that I'd be back to buy a Camaro at $200 if they were interested. They said yes and I went back buying the Camaro. At that time, I told them I'd be back for a Z28 at $200 over cost...didn't think they'd go for it, but they did.
TAG UR IT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2007, 08:28 PM   #25
Scotsman
Auto Pilot
 
Scotsman's Avatar
 
Drives: Gunmetal
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: L.A.
Posts: 1,307
I'd expect for the first year or two the best you could do will probably be $2000 off M.S.R.P.
__________________
"Let the rest of the world dream of Ferraris, Lamborghinis and dinky little British two-seaters. In this country speed doesn't look like that." Got SS?
Scotsman is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pricing Speculation of the 5th gen - (not actual) CamaroSpike23 Camaro Price | Ordering | Tracking | Dealers Discussions 281 01-17-2009 06:22 PM
Edmunds.com review of Holden Commodore... good info. LSxcellent General Automotive + Other Cars Discussion 6 07-23-2007 06:49 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.