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Old 04-25-2012, 09:06 PM   #1
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Lowering the ZL1

I think i asked this before but i can't find the thead...

Can the ZL1 be lowered without affecting MRC or PTM?

The Z comes with a pretty badass stance stock, but me personally if i had one i would want to go a little lower.

The ideal stance would be that of the SSX Camaro which seems to be a little lower. IMO the ZL1 with the SSX stance would be absolutely SICK, but if that would come at a cost of messing up the MRC or PTM i don't know if it would be worth it. Is there a way???



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Old 04-25-2012, 09:41 PM   #2
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I was just thinking about this earlier today.... The SSX stance is pretty bad@ss!
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Old 04-25-2012, 09:57 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SIRLOIN View Post
I think i asked this before but i can't find the thead...

Can the ZL1 be lowered without affecting MRC or PTM?

The Z comes with a pretty badass stance stock, but me personally if i had one i would want to go a little lower.

The ideal stance would be that of the SSX Camaro which seems to be a little lower. IMO the ZL1 with the SSX stance would be absolutely SICK, but if that would come at a cost of messing up the MRC or PTM i don't know if it would be worth it. Is there a way???



It can be...just not by much. It's unlikely you'll see a "slammed" ZL1 with functioning MR.

On the CTS-V, they relocate the sensors so they're "zeroed" at the new height. The dampers don't care too much about spring rate, if I understand correctly, so having stiffer lowering coils wouldn't effect much except raise the handling limits.

It's certainly not a modification I'll be doing right of the bat -- but if the results are good from some of you early adopters ()...I will seriously consider it. Even a fraction of an inch drop will lower the CG enough to notice a difference...
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Old 04-26-2012, 01:02 AM   #4
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I agree, ZL-1 needs a minumum of a 1/2 inch drop Preferably a full inch of drop
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Old 04-26-2012, 07:57 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Dragoneye View Post
It can be...just not by much. It's unlikely you'll see a "slammed" ZL1 with functioning MR.

On the CTS-V, they relocate the sensors so they're "zeroed" at the new height. The dampers don't care too much about spring rate, if I understand correctly, so having stiffer lowering coils wouldn't effect much except raise the handling limits.

It's certainly not a modification I'll be doing right of the bat -- but if the results are good from some of you early adopters ()...I will seriously consider it. Even a fraction of an inch drop will lower the CG enough to notice a difference...

Sweet! Glad to know it can be done... Man i tell you a ZL1 with the SSX stance would be so freakin HOT!!! Can't wait for someone to do this.
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Old 04-26-2012, 08:23 AM   #6
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You will probably tear up the undercarrige on something, the ZL1 is the same height as a Z06 Corvette, that is, low. At least here in Michigan, the first pothole will remove parts.
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Old 04-26-2012, 08:32 AM   #7
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Old 04-26-2012, 08:49 AM   #8
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Check with PEDDERS...I believe they have a package in the works that will work just fine!

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Old 05-01-2012, 05:23 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SIRLOIN View Post
I think i asked this before but i can't find the thead...

Can the ZL1 be lowered without affecting MRC or PTM?

The Z comes with a pretty badass stance stock, but me personally if i had one i would want to go a little lower.

The ideal stance would be that of the SSX Camaro which seems to be a little lower. IMO the ZL1 with the SSX stance would be absolutely SICK, but if that would come at a cost of messing up the MRC or PTM i don't know if it would be worth it. Is there a way???




It is in a GM storage facility I visited recently and still as gorgeous as the first time I saw it. The SSX is a show car and that is all it ever will be so we will never know what it could or couldn't do on track. This may be hard to believe, but I think I was more impressed by a 1915 GMC stake bed truck. The radiator was modular. The core had a flange that mated to flanged upper and lower tanks held in place by a lot of bolts. I think the oil pan held gallons of oil. Then there were the #1 VIN cars, race cars, Muscle Cars, Cadillac prototype show cars...


Quote:
Originally Posted by the rich dude View Post
I agree, ZL-1 needs a minumum of a 1/2 inch drop Preferably a full inch of drop
Could be just about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ1034 View Post
You will probably tear up the undercarrige on something, the ZL1 is the same height as a Z06 Corvette, that is, low. At least here in Michigan, the first pothole will remove parts.
The only issue a lowered ZL1 presents the owner is the front fascia / splitter. It will be low, maybe as low as 4.5" off the ground. Maybe? Could be?

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Maybe? Could be?

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Originally Posted by LOWDOWN View Post
Check with PEDDERS...I believe they have a package in the works that will work just fine!

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Old 05-01-2012, 06:32 PM   #10
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i think the suspension is perfect for this car, granted a little less fender gap would look better. have any of you guys come across a fisker karma in person? that car has no fender gap and it looks perfect i only wish major car manufactures could follow that trend but it is unlikely.
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Old 05-01-2012, 06:38 PM   #11
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It will be interesting to see how it works out. I doubt it will take anything away, performance-wise, from the MRC, but i also thnk it looks pretty giod where it is. Is another half-inch going to be worth it?...
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Old 05-01-2012, 07:07 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by radz28 View Post
It will be interesting to see how it works out. I doubt it will take anything away, performance-wise, from the MRC, but i also thnk it looks pretty giod where it is. Is another half-inch going to be worth it?...
Not worth it in my book unless you are on a pro circuit somewhere. Certainly not street friendly.
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Old 05-01-2012, 07:10 PM   #13
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An inch at the top is worth two at the bottom



That is an OEM ZL1 rear coil on the left. The Pedders coil on the right is .6mm thicker wire. What is really interesting is that Chevrolet now has coil wrap in the same place on the ZL1 rear coils that Pedders has been using on our lowering coils since 2009. If I didn't know better I would say that both coils were made at Pedders. At this time, only the red coil on the right is made at Pedders

Why would you lower a car that is already incredibly fast in the turns as was clearly demonstrated at the Ring? Let me count the ways How about just the highlights?

The fender gap and minimum road clearances used at GM for the Vette and ZL1 are aggressive for an OEM. As performance tuned as the ZL1 is, Pedders as an aftermarket company can do things GM won't do. Lowering the ZL1 an inch will have the bottom of the front spoiler / fascia 4.5" off the ground. That is pretty low and it will scrape on a good range of driveways and speed bumps. The driver will have to use a very gentle approach angle to navigate them. A Pedders driver knows this and doesn't mind it. Most new car buyers would not tolerate it.

Lowering the car will lower the CG and imporve handling. Raising the coil rates a bit will do the same. The MRC system will still measure and adjust the same 500 times per second. The MRC front struts on the Escalade and Denali respond very well to Pedders Lowering Coils. The CTS-V does the same with lowering coils. Expect your ZL1 to do it better.

Add a Pedders 32mm rear Z bar and adjustable 27mm front bar as upgrades to the 25mm front and 28mm rear bars on the ZL1 to wring a bit more out of the ZL1 in hard turns and hard launches. My guess is that the Camaro TEAM looked at very similar bars and bar ratios. They came to the conclusion that for all round use, for optimal customer satisfaction and longevity of the rear lower control arms and rear sway bar mounting points a 28mm solid bar was perfect. Pedders clients will not complain if they need new lower control arms at 75,000 miles because the droplink mounting area in the bottom of the arm is fatigued. Many OEM customers would complain if that happened at 150,000 miles. They also will never know just how well a 5th Gen can corner with the Pedders maxed out bars.

The Camaro TEAM upgraded the sub-frame bushes for 2012 and then again for the ZL1. Why did they stop where they stopped with the ZL1? They came to the conclusion that for all round use, for optimal customer satisfaction and longevity the denser hockey puck hard front sub-frame bushes were the limit. Pedders drivers want more. So we deliver it. Our EP1200 kit first the 2010 / 2011 5th Gen with some thin fingers on the ends of the bushes. Those fingers are removed for the ZL1, but we still install 95% of the EP1200 bush kit by weight.



My guess is we'll find homes for our ZL1 Track I kits.

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Old 05-01-2012, 07:15 PM   #14
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You rawk!

Yes the SSX looks good even the ricer spoiler isnt bad on that car
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Old 05-01-2012, 07:30 PM   #15
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It will be interesting to see how it works out. I doubt it will take anything away, performance-wise, from the MRC, but i also thnk it looks pretty good where it is. Is another half-inch going to be worth it?...
ZL1 owners are lining up at LPE for pulleys and tunes as well as heads, cams pulleys and tunes.

No matter what the OEM builds, there will always be owners that want more. Who could want more than a Ferrari delivers from the factory? Hmmm, Ferrari owners.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:19 AM   #16
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Not worth it in my book unless you are on a pro circuit somewhere. Certainly not street friendly.
True, but I've been in a car with Xas (Mindz') and that thing stuck like stink to sh1t. While I haven't been able to appreciate ZL1's handling yet, and it might be enough for when it is my time, I know there are compromises OEMs have to take into consideration (and I dont' hold that against them). I can take a little rougher ride for a gain in control and performance. But...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
ZL1 owners are lining up at LPE for pulleys and tunes as well as heads, cams pulleys and tunes.

No matter what the OEM builds, there will always be owners that want more. Who could want more than a Ferrari delivers from the factory? Hmmm, Ferrari owners.
... this is where I could come into a bit of a problem. While I'm not necessarily one of those tho don't or can't mind a low front end, they can be unavoidable, and I'm not necessarily willinging to chew-up the splitter (and lower grille to my understanding...) unless I know for sure it is worth it. I hate road rash, but appreciate performance a little more, so this will have to be a trade-off I take serious consideration into.

I have little doubt these will help performance. I'm definately still going through all the bushings and go poly all the way around, and figured the sway bars are probably another addition I'll be making. As far a tearing the lower mounts - I've been considering arms, too, anyways, so that's not as big a deal.

I've just been worrying about claims that the MRC III won't take to modifications too well. I've been assuming that because it's active, it will probably compansate enough that smaller mods', like these, wouldn't be a problem, so I'm interested to see your cars' results
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:20 AM   #17
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BTW - Pete.

I haven't checked, but have to revised, or planning to revise your Suspension Book for ZL1 (and eventually 1LE)?

Thanks
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:53 AM   #18
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Just as the MR and PTM is best tuned for the stock tires I find it hard to believe it would still be ideal after lowering given the geometry and spring rate changes not to mention the roll bars. Not to say lowering can't improve handling performance just as a new tire migh but PTM and MR would no longer contain the ideal calibration for the car. Just my $0.02. I've been saying this for a while now and I've seen no evidence as of yet to lead me to believe otherwise. Again, it maybe doesn't matter as the car is completely changed anyway.
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:02 AM   #19
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Just as the MR and PTM is best tuned for the stock tires I find it hard to believe it would still be ideal after lowering given the geometry and spring rate changes not to mention the roll bars. Not to say lowering can't improve handling performance just as a new tire migh but PTM and MR would no longer contain the ideal calibration for the car. Just my $0.02. I've been saying this for a while now and I've seen no evidence as of yet to lead me to believe otherwise. Again, it maybe doesn't matter as the car is completely changed anyway.
I'm not going to pretend I'm a great driver, or that I could drive faster without all the electronics, however, I'm kinda' going past what the MR can account for because I'm looking at it from a perspective that it's disabled. However - I know the shocks are still active, and if these sorts of mods' effects them in a negative manor, this will be an easy decision, IMO.
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:21 AM   #20
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We will never know the full potential of the MR dampers with modified suspension until the aftermarket has the ability to calibrate the system. Maybe the dampers are helping, hurting, or are a wash at any given state of the car but they are no longer ideal. So perhaps to unlock the full track potential of the ZL1 with modified suspension you would remove the system. This comes with additional trade offs. Just some things to consider. I'm not saying this is definately true but it is an unknown.
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:51 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by IOMZL1 View Post
Just as the MR and PTM is best tuned for the stock tires I find it hard to believe it would still be ideal after lowering given the geometry and spring rate changes not to mention the roll bars. Not to say lowering can't improve handling performance just as a new tire migh but PTM and MR would no longer contain the ideal calibration for the car. Just my $0.02. I've been saying this for a while now and I've seen no evidence as of yet to lead me to believe otherwise. Again, it maybe doesn't matter as the car is completely changed anyway.
MRC has been sprinkled with techno-magic pixie dust. The data points input to the MRC system result in 1,000 adjustments per second and with a second wire, second coil added for virtually instant discharge are as close to magic pixie dust as you can get in the real world.

We have been working with various GM MRC system in AU and here in the States since it first appeared on the Holden HSV series about ten years ago. Even the earliest system had the capability to adjust for load. Weight of the driver and an 1/8 of a tank of fuel or four passengers, trunk full of luggage and a full tank of fuel (i.e. LOWERED vehicle). There are parameters that should not be exceeded to work with the MRC system. Stay within those parameters and let the MRC magic happen.

Sway bars will have no negative effect on the MRC system. The data the system collects include pitch and yaw. When body lean is reduced, the data reflects that accurately to the MRC system.

Better tires for the ZL1 are probably not street legal! While some ZL1 owners may be disappointed with the tread life, it is hard to imagine anyone being disappointed with the sticktion. On the other hand, a square wheel and tire setup with matching 305s up front
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:59 AM   #22
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True, but I've been in a car with Xas (Mindz') and that thing stuck like stink to sh1t. While I haven't been able to appreciate ZL1's handling yet, and it might be enough for when it is my time, I know there are compromises OEMs have to take into consideration (and I dont' hold that against them). I can take a little rougher ride for a gain in control and performance. But...



... this is where I could come into a bit of a problem. While I'm not necessarily one of those tho don't or can't mind a low front end, they can be unavoidable, and I'm not necessarily willinging to chew-up the splitter (and lower grille to my understanding...) unless I know for sure it is worth it. I hate road rash, but appreciate performance a little more, so this will have to be a trade-off I take serious consideration into.

I have little doubt these will help performance. I'm definately still going through all the bushings and go poly all the way around, and figured the sway bars are probably another addition I'll be making. As far a tearing the lower mounts - I've been considering arms, too, anyways, so that's not as big a deal.

I've just been worrying about claims that the MRC III won't take to modifications too well. I've been assuming that because it's active, it will probably compansate enough that smaller mods', like these, wouldn't be a problem, so I'm interested to see your cars' results

I drove this cross country with three inches of clearance. The hills and mountains in Pennsylvania, the pot holes in Jersey, New York, Chicago and Detroit and more than one race track. I had only one problem with a suicidal raccoon and he would have cooked the the ZL1 front spoiler and lower grille too.



The MRC will not take to radical modifications. We don't plan to be radical. Just call us Conservative Activists
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:07 PM   #23
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Thanks for that information, Pete. My interest is renewed to it's previous level

Are you guys going to run 19s, too?...
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:09 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by IOMZL1 View Post
We will never know the full potential of the MR dampers with modified suspension until the aftermarket has the ability to calibrate the system. Maybe the dampers are helping, hurting, or are a wash at any given state of the car but they are no longer ideal. So perhaps to unlock the full track potential of the ZL1 with modified suspension you would remove the system. This comes with additional trade offs. Just some things to consider. I'm not saying this is definitely true but it is an unknown.
Improving on the MRC calibration in the after market is next to impossible at this time. There is no HP Tuners equivalent available for MRC. The lack of MRC tuning software coupled with the incredible amount of development work done by the Chevrolet Camaro Engineers and the integration into additional on board computers (the ZL1 has 32 on board computers) and systems tells me improved MRC cals are something we will not see quickly. Are they possible? Ask any computer hacker if they can get into a locked down system. Are they possible right now? Only from GM. Can you tweak the suspension and work within the current cals?
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:11 PM   #25
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Thanks for that information, Pete. My interest is renewed to it's previous level

Are you guys going to run 19s, too?...
I am intrigued with the idea of running the OEM GY 305s all around. In a perfect world we'll get a ZL1 setup Pedders style and run a bone stock ZL1 side by side to get our head to head data and of course publish it right here on C5.
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