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Old 05-10-2009, 10:42 AM   #1
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Think before you sign....The $10,000 Mistake

Guys,

I am posting this information that you should already know but may help some of you from getting upside down on your Camaro deals.

I have posted the invoice and MSRP of a 2SS Camaro with RS package so you can see what these cars will be worth by year end.

By late fall and before Christmas these cars will be selling for invoice plus $500 and used ones will be selling below original invoice.

If you can wait a couple of months you will be able to buy a brand new 2SS with RS package for Invoice plus $500 for a total of $34,300. You will be able to pick up the same car used for around $32,000 to $33,000.
If you are signing for a loan on a similar car you can see how badly upside down you will be based on your loan amount and the projected value of $32,000 retail (not wholesale).

I have been thru a few of these boom and bust times on new model releases and just wanted to save a few people from some heartbreak later on. I know of people right now that wish they could go back and do it over on their Shelby GT500 purchase. Some of them owe way more than what the cars are worth and need to sell due to hardship.

Also if you happen to encounter financial problems or lose your job you will not be able to sell the car because you will owe more than it is worth.

Think before you sign,

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Old 05-10-2009, 10:48 AM   #2
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You are so correct. I am now so glad I did'nt buy my GT500 when they first came out as I originally wanted to. The guy I just bought mine from took a $20,000 hit on it ! It certainly worked out for me though. Buying lightly used is the only way to go if you can find a car thats perfect enough. And I'd call less than 600 miles on it "perfect"...
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Old 05-10-2009, 10:51 AM   #3
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You are so correct. I am now so glad I did'nt buy my GT500 when they first came out as I originally wanted to. The guy I just bought mine from took a $20,000 hit on it ! It certainly worked out for me though. Buying lightly used is the only way to go if you can find a car thats perfect enough. And I'd call less than 600 miles on it "perfect"...
Roger that, I paid invoice $43,012 for my new 2009 GT500 in December 2008 and have a friend that wrote a check for $73,000 including sales tax on a 2007 GT500 convertible when they first came out.

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Old 05-10-2009, 11:02 AM   #4
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If you loose you job and you cannot get another one, I am sure most people would be more worried about their mortgage, let the bank take the car.......it becomes their problem.

In these times you cannot worry about these things otherwise you further slow the economy. With the mortgage's the way they are (especially if you bought in the past 6 years), you have a bigger problem when you go to sell your supposed "appreciating asset", why should an auto be any different. Plus Auto's are depreciating assets anyway. If you can afford to by it right now, and your job "appears" stabile you go for it, otherwise you wait.

The dealers are only making about $1200 on an SS, give or take, so you are saving $700 to get the car in the winter or next year........Maybe ok for southerners but not us northerners, we want our cars yesterday.

And do not forget you have the Supply and Demand Issue. If the demand is still hot and heavy at the end of the year, your $500 above invoice is out the window. Once these cars hit the road, the people that still never even knew it was coming out will be a new crop of buyers.

BUT A GOOD LESSON FOR ANYONE WILLING TO GO ABOVE STICKER ON ANY CAR, ANY TIME!!!
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Old 05-10-2009, 11:10 AM   #5
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"Quote
The dealers are only making about $1200 on an SS, give or take, so you are saving $700 to get the car in the winter or next year........Maybe ok for southerners but not us northerners, we want our cars yesterday."

The Dealer will make around $2,800 when he sales the 2SS in my example for $500 over invoice not counting any additional GM Dealear incentives that may come up by year end. You also have to add in the Dealer Doc fees which run anywhere from $75 to $700.
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Old 05-10-2009, 11:24 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by War Eagle View Post
"Quote
The dealers are only making about $1200 on an SS, give or take, so you are saving $700 to get the car in the winter or next year........Maybe ok for southerners but not us northerners, we want our cars yesterday."

The Dealer will make around $2,800 when he sales the 2SS in my example for $500 over invoice not counting any additional GM Dealear incentives that may come up by year end. You also have to add in the Dealer Doc fees which run anywhere from $75 to $700.
ON the base car, it shows $1500, but I am not sure how accurate that number is. I do not know where you care getting $2800. Invoice is the dealers price.

Either way you missed my point. The Supply and Demand will drive the price. You are assuming supply will be up and demand will be down, good luck with that assumption. And if you are buying a fun car, most people do not care, it is not a financial move it is a passion driven purchase.

Cars are ALWAYS a depreciating asset unless by some miracle it becomes a classic. But in my opinion with all the plastics and rubber they use today, no cars will last for 20-30 years without half the car looking like crap. Have you ever seen a plastic headlight cover after 8 years, they turn all frosty and the bumpers paint cracks.
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Old 05-10-2009, 11:57 AM   #7
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The profit margin would run from $1,400 on a straight cash sale with $75 doc fee to up to $2,800 with an inflated doc fee, dealer prep and commission on loan if the deal is financed. The invoice is not what the dealer pays you have to look at the "real" invoice not the one they show you.
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Old 05-10-2009, 01:48 PM   #8
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Thumbs up

That is partial the reason I am waiting.
The other reason is, I want all the "bugs" or "fixes" to be iron out by GM before I place an order.
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Old 05-10-2009, 01:55 PM   #9
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No matter what...

You will get a better deal if you wait, theres just no question. How much are they making now off these cars who knows, if you gotta be the first on the block your gonna pay and you should know that. You wanna save some dough and don't care about being first that's the way to go.
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Old 05-10-2009, 02:10 PM   #10
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Being upside down is also dependent on how much you put down.

With $16,000 down I doubt I'll be upside down anytime soon.
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Old 05-10-2009, 02:12 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by War Eagle View Post
The profit margin would run from $1,400 on a straight cash sale with $75 doc fee to up to $2,800 with an inflated doc fee, dealer prep and commission on loan if the deal is financed. The invoice is not what the dealer pays you have to look at the "real" invoice not the one they show you.




The one we show you is the "real" invoice. Invoice is invoice, no matter how you look at it. If you're attempting to reference "hold back", then call it that. Hold back is something the dealer principle gets as a kick back from GM for selling the car and most dealers believe that you as a customer are not entitled to it. GM believes the same and that's why it is the way it is. Here's the real profit a dealer makes on an MSRP deal...

MSRP: $35,185 (for this example)
Invoice: $34,235.25

The dealer makes:
$949.75 profit from invoice to MSRP
Hold back: $1,568.50
LMA: $343.70

They then pay commision to the sales guy: $250.00
Commission to the finance guy: $100.00 (just a round number)
Commission to the floor managers: $85.86 (assuming 3% of total gross)
The LMA money goes back into advertising: -$343.70

So the total gross profit to the dealership is $2,082.39 but $1,568.50 comes to the dealer for keeping their doors open in a quarterly bonus, so on the books, it's only $513.89 for the sale.
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Old 05-10-2009, 02:18 PM   #12
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i'm getting mine for close to invoice so i'm happy.
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Old 05-10-2009, 02:53 PM   #13
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What's with all the Ford owners on this site. Upside down or not, they must be getting ready to dump those Fords!
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Old 05-10-2009, 03:10 PM   #14
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What's with all the Ford owners on this site. Upside down or not, they must be getting ready to dump those Fords!
I am getting ready to buy a 2010 GT 500 and a 2SS Camaro later this year. I like a lot of different Muscle cars and haved owned different brands at the same time. I have never been one of thoes either Chevy or Ford Guys.
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Old 05-10-2009, 03:21 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EllwynX View Post
Being upside down is also dependent on how much you put down.

With $16,000 down I doubt I'll be upside down anytime soon.
Exactly.
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Old 05-10-2009, 03:42 PM   #16
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and what about the money there making that you dont know about .theres always hidden money
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Old 05-10-2009, 03:53 PM   #17
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Gee wiz, guess we should all cancel our orders today then huh?
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Old 05-10-2009, 03:58 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevyrocker View Post



The one we show you is the "real" invoice. Invoice is invoice, no matter how you look at it. If you're attempting to reference "hold back", then call it that. Hold back is something the dealer principle gets as a kick back from GM for selling the car and most dealers believe that you as a customer are not entitled to it. GM believes the same and that's why it is the way it is. Here's the real profit a dealer makes on an MSRP deal...

MSRP: $35,185 (for this example)
Invoice: $34,235.25

The dealer makes:
$949.75 profit from invoice to MSRP
Hold back: $1,568.50
LMA: $343.70

They then pay commision to the sales guy: $250.00
Commission to the finance guy: $100.00 (just a round number)
Commission to the floor managers: $85.86 (assuming 3% of total gross)
The LMA money goes back into advertising: -$343.70

So the total gross profit to the dealership is $2,082.39 but $1,568.50 comes to the dealer for keeping their doors open in a quarterly bonus, so on the books, it's only $513.89 for the sale.
Are you a dealer?
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Old 05-10-2009, 04:03 PM   #19
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Just about one of the few good things about not having nearly enough money yet
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Old 05-10-2009, 04:09 PM   #20
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Gee wiz, guess we should all cancel our orders today then huh?
Exactly, He wants to look at this as an investment instead of a toy purchase. Cars are losers in the money department, unless you are buying a rare exception. Usually when someone is losing money, someone else is gaining.

Nobody cares about it as an investment, if we have been waiting for years for it, we just want it. Then nobody wants dealers to make any money, just keep their doors open and pay their people and local taxes out of their ass's. Dealers are important local business's which I have no problem supporting. Just close all the stores down and buy from the internet, see what that does to a town's economy. We all want to earn a lot and pay little, that is part of the reason we are in such trouble and it IS the major reason why China is kicking our financial ass's.
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Old 05-10-2009, 04:09 PM   #21
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not a damn chance got a ton of money that will go down to make sure i'm rightside up
posted late see 2 posts up
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Old 05-10-2009, 04:39 PM   #22
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Gee.. I just saved over 750 bucks ordering mine before the April 1st price increase. Go figure...

And dont count out another price increase later in the year. Anything is possible. And dont count on a big glut of Camaros sitting at dealerships later this year or even next. You're going to see fewer dealerships and lower inventory which keep prices stable. GM will keep supply and demand in check.

And as far as financial problems go... If you do lose your job within the first 24 months and qualify for unemployment benefits, GM will make up to nine payments valued at up to $500/month.

But you could wait... Head up display is coming and Im sure there will be a few mopre bugs along the way that will have to be worked out.. For me, life is wayyy too short!
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Old 05-10-2009, 07:12 PM   #23
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Gee.. I just saved over 750 bucks ordering mine before the April 1st price increase. Go figure...

And dont count out another price increase later in the year. Anything is possible. And dont count on a big glut of Camaros sitting at dealerships later this year or even next. You're going to see fewer dealerships and lower inventory which keep prices stable. GM will keep supply and demand in check.

And as far as financial problems go... If you do lose your job within the first 24 months and qualify for unemployment benefits, GM will make up to nine payments valued at up to $500/month.

But you could wait... Head up display is coming and Im sure there will be a few mopre bugs along the way that will have to be worked out.. For me, life is wayyy too short!
That's actually a really good point concerning the value of this car (or any new cars from this point on). I'm no auto industry expert, but with the way the auto companies are being forced to cut back and be more conservative with money overall, I don't see dealer lots being so overstocked and new cars being so aplenty as they have been in the past. Thus, supply and demand will take effect, and with less cars being manufactured on GM's (or Ford's, or Chrysler's) end of things, dealerships will have less cars just sitting, thus bargaining won't be what it once was any more... Mostly just hypothesizing, but...
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Old 05-10-2009, 07:18 PM   #24
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Seems like common sense. I mean everybody should know if you buy early your gonna pay more, lose value as soon as you drive off the lot. If you want to play you got to pay. I'm playing BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Although I got GMS.
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Old 05-10-2009, 11:17 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by War Eagle View Post
Guys,

I am posting this information that you should already know but may help some of you from getting upside down on your Camaro deals.

I have posted the invoice and MSRP of a 2SS Camaro with RS package so you can see what these cars will be worth by year end.

By late fall and before Christmas these cars will be selling for invoice plus $500 and used ones will be selling below original invoice.

If you can wait a couple of months you will be able to buy a brand new 2SS with RS package for Invoice plus $500 for a total of $34,300. You will be able to pick up the same car used for around $32,000 to $33,000.
If you are signing for a loan on a similar car you can see how badly upside down you will be based on your loan amount and the projected value of $32,000 retail (not wholesale).

I have been thru a few of these boom and bust times on new model releases and just wanted to save a few people from some heartbreak later on. I know of people right now that wish they could go back and do it over on their Shelby GT500 purchase. Some of them owe way more than what the cars are worth and need to sell due to hardship.

Also if you happen to encounter financial problems or lose your job you will not be able to sell the car because you will owe more than it is worth.

Think before you sign,

War Eagle
The figures shown in the chart are incorrect. Sorry.
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