2013 Mustang GT500 MEGA THREAD

[JMAN311]

Originally Posted by 93TealCobra

It's all bench racing for now, but I predict the excuses for when the GT500 beats the ZL1 to be:

1. The Camaro still looks better
2. (if applicable) The cars weren't run on the same day, with the same drive, on the same tide schedule, when the same planets were in alignment, etc.
3. Well that's on one (fill in the blank) track, but Ford still hasn't released numbers for the Nurburgring.
4. The 2013 ZL1 isn't out yet.
5. The ZL1 is still easier to drive for the average driver.
6. The ZL1 is still cheaper (even though MSRP is going up $1995 for 2013).
7. Just wait until the Camaro comes out on the Alpha platform.

I can't think of any more right now, but I'm sure I'm missing something.

Where exactly did this info come from?

[72MachOne99GT]

Originally Posted by SlingShot

You missed the whole point, but that shouldn't surprise anyone. I'm talking about a race run at more than 1/4 mile at a time. I said the Shelby is faster, but for how long ? In reality there is no way of knowing which one would win after 25 laps, and bench racing wouldn't give you an honest answer.

Not to be a dick, as you came across in your opening sentence, but did you read either of our posts before quoting them? They are very clearly not referencing anything remotely drag strip oriented.

We both stated, unbiasedly I might add, that after a substantial time on track neither the GT500 NOR the ZL1 will be posting times anywhere in the vicinity of their first couple, glory lap or not.

It's frustrating enough posting in this mega-thread when there are four or five different conversations at one time, but add in posts like the one I've quoted and it turns into a war of words.

In your defense I do agree that we can't really know which car will fade faster, but as the SRT guy and I have stated, we do know they'll fade well below the performance levels of a Boss or 1LE.

[oortcloud]

David Letterman posted the top 10 reasons why the 2013 shelby has not raced or posted road track times against the ZL1.

10. They ran out of baklavas.
9. The planets aren't in proper alignment.
8. They are still practicing. So far, on the xbox, the shelby is faster.
7. Every time they go, a chevy guy sneaks in and pulls the spark plug wires.
6. A design "feature" for drag racing prevents the steering wheel from turning left or right above 90 mph.
5. The sun's too bright.
4. It's too cold right now.
3. It's been raining too much.
2. They did go to the track, but the stopwatch malfunctioned dag nabit.
1. They will only agree to race if Al O himself is driving the ZL1.

[tt335ci03cobra]

Woah!! 95 pages!! It was at like 20~ 2 days ago right? I missed a lot and literally don't have the time to read it all.

Any big news in those 70 pages or just bench racing and relative banter?

[Uneducated Guess]

Originally Posted by tt335ci03cobra

Woah!! 95 pages!! It was at like 20~ 2 days ago right? I missed a lot and literally don't have the time to read it all.

Any big news in those 70 pages or just bench racing and relative banter?

something like 5 or more threads were merged in to this one thread... and yes...bench racing at it's finest.

[JimmyDeanSausage]

Originally Posted by oortcloud

David Letterman posted the top 10 reasons why the 2013 shelby has not raced or posted road track times against the ZL1.

They didn't post any 0-60 or 1/4 times either. How'd that work out for the ZL1?

You guys act like Chevy coming out with hero times for the ZL1 instead of letting independent testers do it for them is a GOOD thing.

Independent testing is coming soon. If the GT500 beats the ZL1 in the hands of Randy Pobst or at Lightning Lap you're going to need a nuclear reactor to cook all the crow that's going to be needed around here.

[gearhead08]

Originally Posted by 93TealCobra

It's all bench racing for now, but I predict the excuses for when the GT500 beats the ZL1 to be:

1. The Camaro still looks better
2. (if applicable) The cars weren't run on the same day, with the same drive, on the same tide schedule, when the same planets were in alignment, etc.
3. Well that's on one (fill in the blank) track, but Ford still hasn't released numbers for the Nurburgring.
4. The 2013 ZL1 isn't out yet.
5. The ZL1 is still easier to drive for the average driver.
6. The ZL1 is still cheaper (even though MSRP is going up $1995 for 2013).
7. Just wait until the Camaro comes out on the Alpha platform.

I can't think of any more right now, but I'm sure I'm missing something.

Heres one the gt500 was running below a 1/4 tank of gas so therefore it was EXTREMELY lighter, and not a fair comparison.

[BigHemiSrt]

Originally Posted by gearhead08

Heres one the gt500 was running below a 1/4 tank of gas so therefore it was EXTREMELY lighter, and not a fair comparison.

Ahh the old gas tank advantage!! Nice!

[Black5thgen]

Others believe Ford waited till the Camaro went on hiatus so GM couldn't embarrass them with an N/A 4th gen.

[93TealCobra]

Originally Posted by JMAN311

Where exactly did this info come from?

Insider information from someone who evidently got screwed over by GM concerning a few design aspects of the Camaro.

He may be wrong, but I haven't seen him say something that wasn't 100% correct.

So don't be upset when you see that price tag up $2 g'bombs from 2012.

How fishy does that mysterious QC hold seem now? All those 2012 orders that got turned into 2013 orders...

[69bossnine]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Well howdy, boss '9er.

You obviously missed the erroneous "mass produced cars are not rare" posting...but that's fine. It's difficult to have all the answers, all the time...isn't it?

I don't see your point, the 1969-70 era cars you've brought up don't have any apples/apples relationship to this thread at all.

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

BTW, thanks for bringing up the "horrendously overpriced '69 ZL1".

Again, this points towards your integrity. You put that in quotes, as if that's what I said.. I said that the ZL1 was hugely expensive for its time/era, which is fact, but I NEVER said it was "horrendously overpriced". Hell, I never said overpriced period. The cars cost what they cost back then, period. You're the one randomly typing weird comments about profitability and prices from 40+ years ago that applies to nothing.

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Here's what I suggest you consider doing: go to the attached website and plug in $61,000 Year 2012 Dollars (the price of a necessarily-equipped 202 mph GT 500) and see what that equates to...

http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc....012&year2=1969

Answer: A Brand New 5/50-warranted ZL1 AND a Base '69 Camaro Coupe!

"necessarily-equipped", that's rich. Do you believe your rhetoric?

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

BOSS 429 Cougar, eh? Ever seen this document, before? Feel free to save it...

How much profit did Ford make on those '9s?!

GM made money on EVERY ZL1...

How do you know GM made any money on the ZL1? You're just guessing wildly. Furthermore, those Cougars builds don't represent the contracted cost that was negotiated for the Boss 429 builds (which was done niche-line style). You're just tossing out random junk blindly, you've yet to get a single fact straight or analogy-nailed.

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

and anyone lucky enough to have a genuine ZL1 can exchange 'em for SEVERAL BOSSes, no matter the number...

Man, you just keep on chewing on your own foot... Google is a wonderful thing, you should use it. Last month the documented FIRST ZL1 produced, an arguably more-valuable-than-average ZL1 by that virtue, hammered-down for $400K. Over the last year, the other few ZL1's that have changed hands, have been in the $200K-$300K range..

Pretty much IDENTICAL to current 1969-1970 Boss 429 sales data, maybe a scoche higher, if you're averaging... So that statement above, again, like most of your "facts", is pure fiction.


And still, after taking another couple of your posts and sending them to the glue factory, I'm still wondering... What the hell do 1969 ZL1 and Boss 429 prices and build-numbers and build-executions have to do with 2012-2013 ZL1's and GT500's??

Hint: The answer is nothing, and if you guess nothing, it'll be the first thing you've been correct/accurate about since diving into this discussion.

Don't skip your lithium doses.

[LOWDOWN]

What's the World Record price for a gen-you-whine ZL1? Not a Reggie Jackson burnt-'n-rebuilt one or a car in it's "original" racing livery, or "rebodied" like the $400K one, but a complete-down-to-the-battery-caps-like-a-BOSS '9 garage queen numbers-match COPO 9560?

And the BOSS, done up the same way?

Part of that is "numbers". Unlike the porcine BOSS, most-if-not-ALL ZL1s were RACED...seriously raced. BOSSes? Always were, and always are, garage/trailer queens...just like yours.

ZL1s as an option @ 4,100+ 1969 Greenbacks, not profitable? You could buy an L72 Camaro for less dough than an equally-equipped SS396/375 (L78) Camaro. You could buy a crate ZL1 for mid-$3s all day long...

BOSS '9s sold for mid-$4s. A bare-bones but Deluxe interior FE donor SportsRoof (like the M-code I had...) was into the $3s. The difference from the BOSS '9 Stang and the (2) BOSS '9 Cougar (as far as installation/conversion) was 3" of battery cable...

How much less, exactly, would 3" have saved Ford/KK on the Stang conversions?? And no, my wife doesn't have THAT answer...yours might...

Check YOUR blood pressure, 9er...

[LOWDOWN]

I'm sure no Ford/Mopar sites have enjoyed the activity from "auto-wikipedia experts" and "just the facts, ma'am" professors as THIS site...and that, folks, speaks to your efforts to, once again, only increase the advertising value of this site.

The owners thank you, one and all...

[Doubleblank]

Originally Posted by BigHemiSrt

Only on Camaro5 will you see such one sided logic like this. Its pure comedy once you slap the chit outta yourself to make sure your not dreaming this stuff up. Lol

Go read the forums on SVTPerformance and you'll see a similar number of knuckleheads posting dribble from the Blue Bowl over there......Oh wait, sorry.

And before you drag out the "fanboy" from the closet, I own both makes.

[69bossnine]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

What's the World Record price for a gen-you-whine ZL1? Not a Reggie Jackson burnt-'n-rebuilt one or a car in it's "original" racing livery, or "rebodied" like the $400K one, but a complete-down-to-the-battery-caps-like-a-BOSS '9 garage queen numbers-match COPO 9560?

And the BOSS, done up the same way?

Boss 429's have sold in excess of $600K before, but that was then, this is now... No one is paying those stupid prices anymore.

Face it, you can't have "several" Boss 429's for the price of a ZL1. It's a fact, you can't refute unless you're o.k. with lying (which is possible).

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Part of that is "numbers". Unlike the porcine BOSS, most-if-not-ALL ZL1s were RACED...seriously raced. BOSSes? Always were, and always are, garage/trailer queens...just like yours.

Un-true generalization, you don't know how much and how I drive my Boss, and you're just painting in broad strokes, in a POINTLESS debate.

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

ZL1s as an option @ 4,100+ 1969 Greenbacks, not profitable? You could buy an L72 Camaro for less dough than an equally-equipped SS396/375 (L78) Camaro. You could buy a crate ZL1 for mid-$3s all day long...

You're ignoring how much R&D money got poured into that small run of all-aluminum 427's, and how that money gets amortized over a small-run. Again, you're way out of your league here. No manufacturer makes money on a run of 50 cars with unique engines, they'd have to charge 10-times what they did to even come close. Race cars aren't about making money.

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

The difference from the BOSS '9 Stang and the (2) BOSS '9 Cougar (as far as installation/conversion) was 3" of battery cable...

Wrong again... Did you miss the words "specially prepared"?

[SlingShot]

Originally Posted by Doubleblank

Go read the forums on SVTPerformance and you'll see a similar number of knuckleheads posting dribble from the Blue Bowl over there......Oh wait, sorry.

And before you drag out the "fanboy" from the closet, I own both makes.

You mean this isn't the SVT forums? With all the circle jerking going on I thought I was in the wrong house.

[GearBangr]

I've nevere seen so many ford freaks in one place, lol. You know, I've never really cared for drag racing, I like to spend my time autocrossing and open track days. But, that's important to some people. So I will say this, the gt500 will be a beast on the 1/4, 15 psi on a tvs 2300 will get it done. If the gt500 does beat the zl1 at the lightning lap, I will be impressed, and will be the first to say well done ford. They went to from getting beat by 4 door sedans to where theyr supposed to be. The boss is supposed to be a better track car so well see, I dontt see it happening. And if it does good for them, they deserve theyr time in the sun. Mustangs are all they have, let them have theyr chance to shine. We had nearly two decades of gutless mustang gts, so its about time they do better now.

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by 69bossnine

"necessarily-equipped", that's rich. Do you believe your rhetoric?

Do you need to add TWO packages to a Base GT500 to get a factory-allowed 200+ mph? Yes. The total cost of said vehicle and MANDATORY 200+ mph packages? $61,000...not "rhetoric...FACT.

Curb Weight, Base GT500, as per Ford: 3820 lb. Curb Weight, as tested at Atlanta with BOTH 200+ mph packages: 3870. 57/43 "balance".

The thing about the uneducated and/or illiterate Mustang folks is, with all these possible option packages, STATISTICS and PRICE get confused. Happened with the BOSS- BOSS LS deal, and now it's happenin' with the ChiliWagon. Suddenly EVERY BOSS is $42K and almost matches the $55K ZL1 on a road course and at the strip. NO...it's the now-$49K BOSS LS that almost-but-not-quite kept up with the ZL1 @ Inde...but, again, that's rhetoric...

Whatever the GT500 does, track-wise, it will be a $61K+ 3870 lb. ChiliWagon with not-so-hot-sauce...and a decided PRICE disadavantage to match its PERFORMANCE disadvantage to the road-course-commanding ZL1. Remember Ford's emphasis on AUTOCROSS in it's early-last-week press release? THAT was rhetoric...

Since 1969 has been discussed willingly, here, and it was the final year before Insurance interests started pounding nails into the coffins of muscle car owners with huge premium increases, Camaro that year sold around a 1/4 million versions in that extended Model year. About 50,000 were "performance" versions (non-Base Model-based). What constituted 40% (roughly) of thse "performance" models, in the hayday of muscle car-dom?

Yup...Z/28s. Nimble. Road-racy. Capable. High-winders. Image. ICONIC!!

(Seems to me my racin' pal Dave Strickler did rather well at the strip with one, too...as did Grump with his ZL1...)

Why do we Camaro comrades value road manners and all-around capabilities? HERITAGE...and HOMAGE...the the REAL ZEE!

May it return to a Chevy showroom near you, very-very soon...

[garcmol]

Originally Posted by 93TealCobra

Insider information from someone who evidently got screwed over by GM concerning a few design aspects of the Camaro.

He may be wrong, but I haven't seen him say something that wasn't 100% correct.

So don't be upset when you see that price tag up $2 g'bombs from 2012.

How fishy does that mysterious QC hold seem now? All those 2012 orders that got turned into 2013 orders...

About as fishy and your "Insider"

Originally Posted by jimbone

I find it odd that the 2013 Corvette pricing has been out for a while whereas the 2013 Camaro pricing has not been released yet.

I believe that the QC hold release on 2012 ZL1's was CAFE related. They had to wait until the end of Q12012 in order to sell these cars with GG taxes in order to meet CAFE regulations.

Based on.......

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by jimbone

This is not true. There is no speed limiter on base, non PP+TP 2013 GT500's. The coolers and different suspension are not necessary to hit 200 mph.

NOT according to Ford...if you plan on runnin' 200mph...HEAT...COOLERS...FACT.

[LOWDOWN]

BTW, the Curb Weight of a ZL1 Camaro in '69 = Curb Weight of a ZEE...and COPO option 9737 got you the ZEE suspension/tires-wheels...and exactly TWO of those were built. Talk about a "master of ALL" disciplines!

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by jimbone

Are you saying that the car will overheat and pull timing/limit the RPM during the ~90-120 seconds a top speed run takes?

If so, what are these factual limits as described by Ford?

Ask you resident Ford experts, here. After all, I only deal in rhetoric...

[LOWDOWN]

If you're gonna contribute to the VAST body of work, here, please go back and find the specific reference already provided...and please review what has already been shared...

[garcmol]

Originally Posted by jimbone

Educated guess. Chevrolet's total CAFE has to take into account MPG for all cars sold in the US and adding 2 cars with GG taxes can't be done without consideration. fbodfather has mentioned CAFE before on this forum as well. It would be nice to hear a post from him about CAFE and its implication on the release of the ZL1, if any.

That's what I thought.

Don't know either about hitting the 200mph mark without getting the Optional 3.31 gearing

[LOWDOWN]

I suspect he's been disrespected enough on this thread to preclude his further contribution...