Smoking gun for those who are fighting "normal" rub marks

[bulllett]

Hmm, this little tidbit was brought back up recently; http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=ETznATuU4Ww

so I went through it and came up with some support for those that are told that rub marks are "normal". If you listen at right around the 2:08 mark you will hear Josh Holder (the Program Validation Engineer for the Camaro) talking about the results of a test that they do for the tops (testing what they say would be a hard use, 10 year span of a top). His position is that after using the roof for 10 years, "We expect the roof to look as it did before we started the test". BAM! No rub marks! (of coursre this also shows the shortcomings of their own test. Because we all know the rub marks come from driving around with the top down).

So here is GM's Program Validation Engineer in direct contradiction of what the GM reps are telling us.

So next time one of these idiots tries to sell you that story, reference Josh Holder's quote.

Oh yeah, fwiw, I didn't let this vid slide by this time. I sent an e-mail to Mr Holder JUST IN CASE he wanted to say he was oblivious to any problems with the tops (which I'm sure he's not). Here is the body of the e-mail;

Mr Holder, I came across the video of you going in the trunk of a new 5th gen Camaro Convertible. Nice Circus act. I haven't seen any GM snake oil being sold with the car, so I'm guessing its the car itself that you are peddling.

I'm not sure how you could put your name and reputation on such a poorly designed product. Maybe you are just that ensconced in the GM hierarchy that you have no attatchment to honesty and integrity. If so, then my words will fall on deaf ears, but maybe they will be cathartic to me.

First let me give you a reference to who I am. I know I'm just a number to you, so I'll give you my case number; 71-1047549383. My story is long, so I'll just cut to the chase. The design you are touting so highly is a mess. There are everything from rub marks, to holes, to popped bows, to leaks, to literally standing water in back seats, to glass popping out, to electrical harnesses rubbing through, to weather stripping pulling out, to....Geez as I start to write these down I'm just flabbergasted by the amount of problems you have with your design (that's 2011, 2012, and 2013). I laugh out loud (not lol, I mean literally I laugh out loud) at your claims of this being such a highly tested and wonderful design. It is just plain and simple a piss poor design. I'd give you references like a facebook page of problems; http://www.facebook.com/groups/226942550693692/ or another nationwide (actually worldwide) forum like Camaro5.com http://www.camaro5.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=133 where you can search out all these problems, but I'm positive you already know about them.

So why do you (as in GM) continue to blame these problems on the customer or say that they are "normal" (and yes I have that in writing from GM stating that the marks are normal and they would do nothing for me. The same marks that are literally making a hole through the top from the inside out!)? More importantly, why the hell can't your brilliant engineers and desgners come up with a proper fix? All I've seen is some patchwork fixes (fix a design with TAPE? C'mon now what kind of moronic idea is that? Probably based in the same reasoning of washing off rub marks. So water and soap will add material back to the top? Just plain chicanery. I guess you guys are so good that you can break the laws of physics).

It is quite apparent through the responses I have received from the GM representatives that you (GM as a whole) view the public as just moronic lemmings who will automatically agree to your "rub marks are normal" and your "wash the marks off with soap" baloney. I'm fully aware that your bean counters are saying to do this because its a numbers game and this will push some people away; people you won't have to cover. But in light of all of that, one would think that you self important, highly paid brainiacs would come up with a solution in the mean time. The only solutions I have seen have been the TSB's which come out suspiciously just after a member on Camaro 5 does some redesigning and sees where the problem is.

In addition, did your bean counters think about the future 5th gen Camaro's? I have seen multiple situations where people have decided against buying a Camaro vert because of the problems. Well documented possible customers........geez you folks can't see the forest for the trees.

Anyway, this has now gone on too long and I know you won't read the whole thing (and I certainly wouldn't expect a reply because that might implicate you toward responsibility!), but I just felt I should make my position known.

Sincerely, Mark Bullett

[Eli]

Nicely done. Tad bit of vinegar but I think its necessary to convey your level of frustration.

[bulllett]

Originally Posted by Eli

Nicely done. Tad bit of vinegar but I think its necessary to convey your level of frustration.

Agreed, and intentional.

We all know I'm not getting any response from Mr Holder, so I figured I need to make a pointed impression in writing. It would have read differently if I felt there was a possibility of give and take conversation that might work toward a solution. But GM and all their lackey's have given me no reason to believe that they want to be reasonable or understanding.

[evlar]

Nice job, someone needs to keep hounding them.

What should happen in my opinion is we should see what everyone's appetite is for a unified letter. We can check on here and on the top problems facebook page to get an electronic endorsement that we will draft a certified letter to be sent to GM headquarters representing all of us with these camaro top issues. We can get a list of case numbers and photographs to send as appendicies.

We will present this letter online and have everyone approve electronically. When we mail it certified to GM we'll include their names and VINS so they know that we are real owners. We will demand that GM respond in writing, admitting to the flawed design on these tops and use information like Bullett's above from the video to support our claim that the quality is not GM guaranteed. We will also demand that GM either grant us a buyback or extended 7 year, 75,000 mile warranty at our choice.

If GM does not agree to these terms for everyone signing, then we will have to consider more serious of a response, not to exclude a class action lawsuit. Which, in my opinion, we have enough cases to seek council on should we desire to go that route.

What are your thoughts?

[pocketcthulhu]

While I don't feel I have had any issues with my top I can't say i won't and I had a number of issues with my sky's top over the 3 years I had it so I'm holding my breath with the camaro top. (but it still wasn't enough to keep me from buying a convertible)

[oldfriend]

I don't have a convertible but i understand the problems that you guys are having , in most cases it's a numbers game , like if most of you with this issues and others get together like EVLAR says , and push the issue to the top of GM they will have no way out , but admit that there is a problem, and actually do something about it , even if they have to ask for any ideas from the forum member that have solved the issue for himself .It is a shame that GM is pissing away the potential that this cars have for the long term .

[Allanski]

I firmly believe that if you have a top problem and take it to the dealer GM will make it right. I also understand (and believe me I am not a patient person) if we wait a bit more there will be good replacements for those who need it.

If your dealer is brushing you off follow protocol, note with pics and go to another dealer. Also GM ombudsman is around the forum and I am sure you can find how to contact him.

Good luck and have some patience, I think the only warranty I have left due to modifications is my top!

[bulllett]

Originally Posted by Allanski

I firmly believe that if you have a top problem and take it to the dealer GM will make it right. I also understand (and believe me I am not a patient person) if we wait a bit more there will be good replacements for those who need it.

If your dealer is brushing you off follow protocol, note with pics and go to another dealer. Also GM ombudsman is around the forum and I am sure you can find how to contact him.

Good luck and have some patience, I think the only warranty I have left due to modifications is my top!

I started to type a reply itemizing points but then I thought better.

Let's just leave it at; While I respect your opinion, I think your view is a bit optimistic and "pie in the sky" for the problems, incompetence and insults we have encountered.

[Ultrakiller]

Originally Posted by bulllett

I started to type a reply itemizing points but then I thought better.

Let's just leave it at; While I respect your opinion, I think your view is a bit optimistic and "pie in the sky" for the problems, incompetence and insults we have encountered.

Ya know after watching the video, and with some 50 cases read days before, I'm reconsidering that I will stick only with the coupe with a sunroof, or get a convertible Corvette, which (hope so, no idea on this) does not present such problems.

[evlar]

Knowing what I know now, I would not purchase another one of these convertibles. I would have gone coupe with sunroof or mustang convertible.

[95birdible]

Over 200 members in the facebook group with top problems. Also, someone put a petition over there if you would like to stop by and sign it.

[hawk02]

Originally Posted by Ultrakiller

Ya know after watching the video, and with some 50 cases read days before, I'm reconsidering that I will stick only with the coupe with a sunroof, or get a convertible Corvette, which (hope so, no idea on this) does not present such problems.

Corvette convertibles don't seem to be immune from rub marks either.

[Tally Ho]

Originally Posted by hawk02

Corvette convertibles don't seem to be immune from rub marks either.

They are not immune. My car does not look nearly as bad as this one does. My marks are actually shiny and do go away after it's washed. The only top issue I've had on my 06 was the headliner got pinched in the mechanism and tore a hole in it. It was covered under warranty and outsourced to an independent upholstery shop. No issues since.

My 98 Vette was a different story. The back window popped out and required a new top. I'm in touch with the current owner and so far no issues with the new top.

The only issue I had with my 89 Vette was the plastic back window. The AZ sun took it's toll despite being garaged and made the plastic brittle. This, too, required a new top.

As far as the exterior fabric, all three of these Vettes had/have the black StaFast material. I never got any holes, tears, etc. on the exterior. These were/are all manual tops as well.

[jjas0n]

I'm working with the BBB first and then Lemon Law next. My car has been out of service since May 11 for top problems. That's 25 days and counting so far on this ONE ISSUE. I'm well over 30 days total - the magic number for Lemon Law in Washington State.

If there is some action to take against GM, I'm interested. Their Customer Relations Group has been encouraging me to cease relations and I'm tired of making payments on a car I cannot drive and not getting any assistance from GM.

My summary, so far, is on this thread: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=220255

Jason

[bulllett]

Originally Posted by Ultrakiller

Ya know after watching the video, and with some 50 cases read days before, I'm reconsidering that I will stick only with the coupe with a sunroof, or get a convertible Corvette, which (hope so, no idea on this) does not present such problems.

Originally Posted by evlar

Knowing what I know now, I would not purchase another one of these convertibles. I would have gone coupe with sunroof or mustang convertible.

You guys are not alone. We have members on here and members on the facebook page who have actually acted on those feelings and NOT bought a convertible (or even a GM product) because of the problems.

Like I said, GM just can't see the forest for the trees.

[Ultrakiller]

Originally Posted by hawk02

Corvette convertibles don't seem to be immune from rub marks either.

At least there are some people which bought convertible Corvettes when the C6 has came out, and most of the tops are holding just fine, even the rub marks are not that much of a functional issue except aesthetics, but you can't expect a folding top, no matter what it's made from, to not have any sort of rub marks.

[dwinva]

Originally Posted by Ultrakiller

At least there are some people which bought convertible Corvettes when the C6 has came out, and most of the tops are holding just fine, even the rub marks are not that much of a functional issue except aesthetics, but you can't expect a folding top, no matter what it's made from, to not have any sort of rub marks.

Not so...we own a 2003 Thunderbird with 37000 miles. This car lives in the elements (rarely garage kept), but we do have the hard top for the winter. At any rate this top still looks brand new. I have had 3 tops on my 1991 Jeep Wrangler. One did wear out and leak after about 8 years (the original). The others were replaced because of broken zippers, cracked windows, etc. Way back in the day, I had a 1974 Fiat Spyder. The top itself was fine but the back window cracked and I replaced it due to that issue.

[triplethreat]

I never had a problem with my 1968 Firebird. The top looked new years afterwards.

[pnyklr]

Just a thought here.

GM IS actively working on a resolution. There is a new top in production ATM. It's not like they have walked away from the problem and not giving us the us the bird.

I understand the frustration level some of you guys have but at least they are still working on the problem. It's not like they have walked away from the problem and are giving us the us the bird.

-Funk

[willhe64]

When I drive around without the tonneau cover off I get rub marks, with the cover on I get no rub marks. The top flaps around in the wind.

[bulllett]

Originally Posted by pnyklr

Just a thought here.

GM IS actively working on a resolution. There is a new top in production ATM. It's not like they have walked away from the problem and not giving us the us the bird.

I understand the frustration level some of you guys have but at least they are still working on the problem. It's not like they have walked away from the problem and are giving us the us the bird.

-Funk

Not to go too far or deep here (I do realize you are trying to look at "glass half full" and I appreciate the sentiment), but remember this problem has been attempted to be swept under the rug for, what, a couple of years now? As I said about the TSB's, is that they are clearly generated from Sux work. That shouldn't be happening. As well as the "fixes" they are proposing are really more of stop gaps (and I'll state again that putting tape on something is not a "fix" for a design. It is simply a temporary crutch).

Now more importantly is the position that GM is taking. When I brought the car in to have the rub marks looked at, the dealer said....no, wait, let me just quote what the dealer wrote on my invoice, "Call Tac set up case. Was told that condition was normal- Client should have top cleaned with soap and soft brush, and not leave top down"

Word for word, mispellings and all. The dealership is quoting GM on this (funny thing is that we actually paid to have the car detailed while she was in there; and you could obviously still see the rub marks, lol).

Now as of April 19th both the dealership and the GM rep are stating "that the rub marks are normal and there is nothing more GM will do for you".

This is, let's say, about a month and a half ago. So in the face of all that is going on and all that GM does know about these rub marks, they are denying culpability, lying to the customer and hoping they just go away. Period.

This, to me is a big problem. While I'm not one to take nonsense like this lying down, there are more than enough people who do. And GM is counting, no preying, on those people. "Just say no and a lot of people will just go away. Then we slowly deal with whatever is left".

Yeah, I'm a little guy with little man syndrome (even now at my age), but I was taught that if you see someone being bullied around or taken advantage of (and they can't defend themselves), its your obligation to step in and help. Don't know why it is, its just what my mommy taught me

So while I hear you on the idea they may finally be looking at solving this problem, it is at the expense of those "innocents" who were lied to and told basically to get lost (one might say they were "given the finger" ) when they brought their cars in (and again, in my case that was only a month and a half ago. And I guarantee you, they are still saying that to others).

I'm not even going into the many buybacks, lemon laws and legal actions that were needed to MAKE GM do something.

pnyklr, I know that it seems like I'm being a Negative Nelly, but honestly that's just not true. Its just, unfortunately, GM has continued to push us into a defensive position and I think we are now coming off that wall we were backed into......and we're coming out swinging.

[pnyklr]

Originally Posted by bulllett

pnyklr, I know that it seems like I'm being a Negative Nelly, but honestly that's just not true. Its just, unfortunately, GM has continued to push us into a defensive position and I think we are now coming off that wall we were backed into......and we're coming out swinging.

I understand what you are saying and I know that there are several on here that have been treated like dirt by GM. Based on the accounts I would you guys have a reason to be pissed and fight back. Not excusing GM as they have done some shady things regarding this top situation.

My mommy always taught me to be optimistic.

-Funk

[bulllett]

Originally Posted by pnyklr

My mommy always taught me to be optimistic.

-Funk

Hahahaha. Good thing

[strych9]

My car is a coupe, but I do have a question. I originally looked at (and almost purchased) a 45th Ann. vert. I hadn't done any research on these cars at all, but the material of these tops made me nervous. My question is, do any other automakers use this type of material? The only vert I've owned was a 2003 Mustang GT. The top had a soft, vinyl feel to it, but was very durable. It looked like new for the 3 years that I owned it.

Just curious, I guess.

[bulllett]

Originally Posted by strych9

My car is a coupe, but I do have a question. I originally looked at (and almost purchased) a 45th Ann. vert. I hadn't done any research on these cars at all, but the material of these tops made me nervous. My question is, do any other automakers use this type of material? The only vert I've owned was a 2003 Mustang GT. The top had a soft, vinyl feel to it, but was very durable. It looked like new for the 3 years that I owned it.

Just curious, I guess.

strych9 good point and well taken. The conversations I'm having with the dealership is that they are very suspicious of the type of material as well. (I can't say exactly who because I don't want to get anybody in trouble, lol). But, unfortunately that doesn't really jibe with the suposed amount of "good tops" that are out there (though after the flop of my thread; http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226556 I'm highly suspicious of there being that many good ones out there).

But I do agree that none of my other 3 convertibles that I had, were made out of the same type of material.