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Old 06-07-2012, 08:14 PM   #1
TornadoSS
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SS gets squirelly under WOT

Since the rear has been apart several times recently for the 9 inch conversion with an S trac posi (mechanical) I am trying to get my alignment dialed in again, Hopefully some of the alignment gurus can help me out here.

The SS has Spohn trailing arms and toe rods and BMR bushings on the spindle side of the trailing arm. Hotchkis chassis max brace on subframe and Hotchkis 1" lowering springs.

The car is wiggling (not violently) very tightly back and forth side to side under hard acceleration (WOT all gears), most notably at the strip, but does this on the street too. It only became apparent after the 9 inch conversion and the much faster/aggressive acceleration now.

The old numbers were

Front Left Right
Camber -.8 -1.0
Caster 5.9 5.8
Toe in .09 .11
Total Toe .20 Steer ahead -.01
Rear
Camber -.3 -.4
Toe in .10 .09
Total Toe .18 Thrust angle 0.01
NEW current Numbers -

Front Left Right
Camber -.8 -1.1
Caster 5.8 5.9
Toe In .05 .05
Total Toe .10 Steer ahead 0.00
Rear
Camber -.8 -.8
Toe In .07 .07
Total toe .14 Thrust angle 0.00

Can someone give me some advice for which direction I should go with the numbers? Since the new alignment the car did get better with less wiggling but it still has some movement. I am guessing it wants the rear toe and camber closer to 0? It did pretty well with the rear camber near -.3 or -.4 on the stock diff. I have checked all the subframe bolts and hotchkis attaching points.
I am shooting for a happy medium between aggressive street and drag settings on street tires (Invos), I run the car on the drag strip several times a month but mostly street driving. Sorry for the long winded post. Thanks!


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Old 06-07-2012, 11:57 PM   #2
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Is the car corner balanced? We had a guy here that was having this problem and he tried everything and nothing worked until he got it corner balanced.
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Old 06-08-2012, 06:25 AM   #3
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Is the car corner balanced? We had a guy here that was having this problem and he tried everything and nothing worked until he got it corner balanced.
It has not been corner balanced. What all is involved with doing that?
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Old 06-08-2012, 10:19 AM   #4
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Corner balancing is a good idea after you've changed a lot of your suspension components and ride heights. Find a performance shop with the alignment and scales equipment. Not too dificult or expensive. Think of a table with one leg shorter than the other four. When you tilt the table on the short leg, it carries more weight than the other legs. When you tilt the table away from the shorter leg, the short leg carries little to no weight. This is an overly simple analogy, but you get the idea. It might not cure your problem, but is worth doing anyway.
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Old 06-08-2012, 01:42 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TornadoSS View Post
It has not been corner balanced. What all is involved with doing that?
They put your car on 4 individual scales, one under each wheel, and normally balance the car so the weight distribution is even all around (or whatever you request).

Some will do this with a full tank and you sitting in the car.
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:12 PM   #6
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Does toe change when the rear suspension is under load?
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:19 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parag View Post
Does toe change when the rear suspension is under load?
I'm not sure. Everything is poly bushed now, so deflection or movement should be minimal.
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:25 PM   #8
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out of curiosity, what did you do with the old diff?
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:39 PM   #9
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After putting a cam in my car I had the same issue. I had it corner balanced and a new alignment done at the same time and straight as an arrow now. And my car is 3818 lbs with 3/4 of a tank and no driver.
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
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out of curiosity, what did you do with the old diff?
Sold it.
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Old 06-08-2012, 03:25 PM   #11
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Sold it.
thanks,

good luck finding the source of the "wiggle", i am sure you will.
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Old 06-09-2012, 07:25 AM   #12
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You should contact Pete at Pedders, he provided me with three options for alignment (street, auto-cross, drag race) His e-mail contact is: PGB@PeddersUSA.com. As for corner balancing, you should definitely have it done and when it is done it should be with you or your weight equivalent in the drivers seat.
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Old 06-09-2012, 07:35 AM   #13
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Most performance shops will do a corner balance with 200 lbs in the driver's seat and approximately 1/2 tank of gas......unless you tell them otherwise. I've seen guys poor-boy it with inexpensive scales, but they have no way of knowing if the car is completely level.
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Old 06-12-2012, 06:57 PM   #14
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Any alignment gurus with input? I emailed a few but no responses.
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Old 06-12-2012, 07:12 PM   #15
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The giant sticky up top has all the numbers you need from hotchkis, pedders, or pfadt. Print one and take it to the alignment shop as they say exactly what caster, camber and toe to do which you're off on all of them. Also take it to a place that will take the time to make it even left and right more so than a range.

Cradle and differential bushings would probably help too.
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Old 06-12-2012, 07:47 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Synner View Post
The giant sticky up top has all the numbers you need from hotchkis, pedders, or pfadt. Print one and take it to the alignment shop as they say exactly what caster, camber and toe to do which you're off on all of them. Also take it to a place that will take the time to make it even left and right more so than a range.

Cradle and differential bushings would probably help too.
Thanks, those numbers I used are from that sticky, I have been through a decent range if them. Already have diff bushings with the 9 inch kit. I think I will try less camber and zero toe next.
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Old 06-12-2012, 08:49 PM   #17
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less rear camber will help as the camber increases negative value as the suspension drops during load.
dont try for zero rear toe, it is too risky if you get off a little and have toe out at all. with any rear toe out it will be very twitchy. i go between 1/4 and 1/8 inch total toe in, 1/4 for raceday, 1/8 for drag and street. I did the math backwards and you are less than 1/32" total now.
So i recommend more toe IN

the front alignment will only help for cornering,
I thought stock caster was 7 degrees? am i wrong there? more caster will help once you get sideways, it will pull the steering wheel to hold the car from spinning out.
I always have as much negative camber as possible(isnt much) and a slight toe out(1/8" total toe)

I am still interested in the effects of the suspension drop during launch, if you have it up on the alignment rack, you should throw some weight in the trunk to see.
you still might have the entire rear subframe moving. the stock mounts allow almost an inch of movement!!! the best is to get the pfadt subframe mounts, but around $650 and a bitch to install
I was going to recommend the hotchkis chassis brace, but it looks like you already have it.
the hotchkis brace holds really well for straight line accel, but i am so abusive to my car, i need more lateral support, so i made my own, works really well at the track, totally feel the difference

you should stick a gopro down there to see if anything is moving
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Old 06-12-2012, 09:01 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parag View Post
less rear camber will help as the camber increases negative value as the suspension drops during load.
dont try for zero rear toe, it is too risky if you get off a little and have toe out at all. with any rear toe out it will be very twitchy. i go between 1/4 and 1/8 inch total toe in, 1/4 for raceday, 1/8 for drag and street. I did the math backwards and you are less than 1/32" total now.
So i recommend more toe IN

the front alignment will only help for cornering,
I thought stock caster was 7 degrees? am i wrong there? more caster will help once you get sideways, it will pull the steering wheel to hold the car from spinning out.
I always have as much negative camber as possible(isnt much) and a slight toe out(1/8" total toe)

I am still interested in the effects of the suspension drop during launch, if you have it up on the alignment rack, you should throw some weight in the trunk to see.
you still might have the entire rear subframe moving. the stock mounts allow almost an inch of movement!!! the best is to get the pfadt subframe mounts, but around $650 and a bitch to install
I was going to recommend the hotchkis chassis brace, but it looks like you already have it.
the hotchkis brace holds really well for straight line accel, but i am so abusive to my car, i need more lateral support, so i made my own, works really well at the track, totally feel the difference
Thanks Parag! Yeah stock caster is around 7 degrees, except mine, lol. Damn wide range of factory tolerances! I will shoot for less camber on rear, at least half of front. I have some ideas for the solid rear sub frame bushings later.
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Old 06-12-2012, 09:06 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parag View Post
less rear camber will help as the camber increases negative value as the suspension drops during load.
dont try for zero rear toe, it is too risky if you get off a little and have toe out at all. with any rear toe out it will be very twitchy. i go between 1/4 and 1/8 inch total toe in, 1/4 for raceday, 1/8 for drag and street. I did the math backwards and you are less than 1/32" total now.
So i recommend more toe IN

the front alignment will only help for cornering,
I thought stock caster was 7 degrees? am i wrong there? more caster will help once you get sideways, it will pull the steering wheel to hold the car from spinning out.
I always have as much negative camber as possible(isnt much) and a slight toe out(1/8" total toe)

I am still interested in the effects of the suspension drop during launch, if you have it up on the alignment rack, you should throw some weight in the trunk to see.
you still might have the entire rear subframe moving. the stock mounts allow almost an inch of movement!!! the best is to get the pfadt subframe mounts, but around $650 and a bitch to install
I was going to recommend the hotchkis chassis brace, but it looks like you already have it.
the hotchkis brace holds really well for straight line accel, but i am so abusive to my car, i need more lateral support, so i made my own, works really well at the track, totally feel the difference

you should stick a gopro down there to see if anything is moving
And that is a badass sub frame brace you made!
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11.57 @ 126.8 mph with a crappy 1.80 60'.....still learning to drive....M&H DR's and skinnies on 17" Welds.
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Old 06-14-2012, 09:03 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TornadoSS View Post
Since the rear has been apart several times recently for the 9 inch conversion with an S trac posi (mechanical) I am trying to get my alignment dialed in again, Hopefully some of the alignment gurus can help me out here.

The SS has Spohn trailing arms and toe rods and BMR bushings on the spindle side of the trailing arm. Hotchkis chassis max brace on subframe and Hotchkis 1" lowering springs.

The car is wiggling (not violently) very tightly back and forth side to side under hard acceleration (WOT all gears), most notably at the strip, but does this on the street too. It only became apparent after the 9 inch conversion and the much faster/aggressive acceleration now.

The old numbers were

Front Left Right
Camber -.8 -1.0
Caster 5.9 5.8
Toe in .09 .11
Total Toe .20 Steer ahead -.01
Rear
Camber -.3 -.4
Toe in .10 .09
Total Toe .18 Thrust angle 0.01
NEW current Numbers -

Front Left Right
Camber -.8 -1.1
Caster 5.8 5.9
Toe In .05 .05
Total Toe .10 Steer ahead 0.00
Rear
Camber -.8 -.8
Toe In .07 .07
Total toe .14 Thrust angle 0.00

Can someone give me some advice for which direction I should go with the numbers? Since the new alignment the car did get better with less wiggling but it still has some movement. I am guessing it wants the rear toe and camber closer to 0? It did pretty well with the rear camber near -.3 or -.4 on the stock diff. I have checked all the subframe bolts and hotchkis attaching points.
I am shooting for a happy medium between aggressive street and drag settings on street tires (Invos), I run the car on the drag strip several times a month but mostly street driving. Sorry for the long winded post. Thanks!


A few quick questions please.

1. What are the rear ride heights measured Pedders style in mm?

[IMG][/IMG]

2. You are on OEM coils and struts?

3. The sub-frame bushes are still OEM?

4. What is your tire and wheel package?
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Old 06-14-2012, 09:38 PM   #21
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A few quick questions please.

1. What are the rear ride heights measured Pedders style in mm?

[IMG][/IMG]

2. You are on OEM coils and struts?

3. The sub-frame bushes are still OEM?

4. What is your tire and wheel package?
I won't have car back until friday evening, so I don't have ride height measurement. Its 1" lower than stock.
It rides on Hotchkis sport springs 1" drop with stock struts. Stock subframe bushings with Hotchkis under car max brace. The wheel are 9" x 20 front and 11 x 20 rear forgstar f14's wrapped with Invo 275/40 front and 315/35 rear. Thanks!
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Old 06-14-2012, 10:12 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TornadoSS View Post
I won't have car back until friday evening, so I don't have ride height measurement. Its 1" lower than stock.
It rides on Hotchkis sport springs 1" drop with stock struts. Stock subframe bushings with Hotchkis under car max brace. The wheel are 9" x 20 front and 11 x 20 rear forgstar f14's wrapped with Invo 275/40 front and 315/35 rear. Thanks!
One more question. Have you timed your rear lower control arm bushes?


Bush Timing

Step 1. Lift the car on a two post lift and raise it.

Step 2. Loosen the following bolts/nuts:
Front:
---Inner Control Arm Bushing
---Inner Radius Rod
Rear:
---Trailing Arm Bushings (both ends)
---Toe Rod Bushings (both ends)
---Lower Control Arm Bushings (Inner)
---Upper Control Arm Bushings (Rearward)
---Lower Strut Bushings

Step 3.
Lower the car and drive it around the parking lot SLOWLY and on to the alignment lift.

Step 4.
With the weight of the car on the wheels tighten all of the nuts/bolts to spec.

Step 5.
Align the car at the new ride height.
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Old 06-14-2012, 11:09 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
One more question. Have you timed your rear lower control arm bushes?


Bush Timing

Step 1. Lift the car on a two post lift and raise it.

Step 2. Loosen the following bolts/nuts:
Front:
---Inner Control Arm Bushing
---Inner Radius Rod
Rear:
---Trailing Arm Bushings (both ends)
---Toe Rod Bushings (both ends)
---Lower Control Arm Bushings (Inner)
---Upper Control Arm Bushings (Rearward)
---Lower Strut Bushings

Step 3.
Lower the car and drive it around the parking lot SLOWLY and on to the alignment lift.

Step 4.
With the weight of the car on the wheels tighten all of the nuts/bolts to spec.

Step 5.
Align the car at the new ride height.

deleted post...nvm
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Old 06-15-2012, 06:23 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
One more question. Have you timed your rear lower control arm bushes?


Bush Timing

Step 1. Lift the car on a two post lift and raise it.

Step 2. Loosen the following bolts/nuts:
Front:
---Inner Control Arm Bushing
---Inner Radius Rod
Rear:
---Trailing Arm Bushings (both ends)
---Toe Rod Bushings (both ends)
---Lower Control Arm Bushings (Inner)
---Upper Control Arm Bushings (Rearward)
---Lower Strut Bushings

Step 3.
Lower the car and drive it around the parking lot SLOWLY and on to the alignment lift.

Step 4.
With the weight of the car on the wheels tighten all of the nuts/bolts to spec.

Step 5.
Align the car at the new ride height.
I have timed the rear bushings that have not already been switched out to poly.
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11.57 @ 126.8 mph with a crappy 1.80 60'.....still learning to drive....M&H DR's and skinnies on 17" Welds.
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Old 06-15-2012, 11:26 AM   #25
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There isn't much left to look at.

The guys with the corner weights are on to something and it ties into ride height. The lowest rear ride height wheel will have the least amount of weight. The The tallest, longest will carry more weight. Using corner weighting scales you will be able to get and even load across the two rear wheels which will help keep them straight. I know you are on coils and not coilovers, but you can shim the upper strut mount plate Getting a good accurate rear ride height measurement is a good place to start.

The root cause of your IRS instability will eventually be traced back to the OEM sub-frame bushes. Brace or no brace they are still moving. Switch them out to Pedders EP1201HDs and bolt your brace back in place. Run a few tests. If they are not better I will refund your purchase price and you can keep the bushes. I am able to make an offer like this for two reasons. First, I have a vague idea that it will work and two, most of the people here on C5 are true enthusiasts and I can depend on their integrity.

Even with the EP1201HDs installed, we still want to corner weight and adjust the alignment after to squeeze out every 10th and there might be one or two more tricks we can apply to your car.
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