intake valves after 16k, no catch can.

[bluecam805]

Originally Posted by strych9

Firstly, my qualifications:

1. Associates degree in automotive technology
2. ASE Master Certification in A1-A8, plus L1
3. Ford Senior Master-Certified technician, the third tech in the nation to achieve this
4. 18 years as a professional drivability, engine, and electrical technician
5. Former drag and dirt track racer

Yeah, I'm qualified.

You can get a can of BG induction cleaner for $15. Anyone can learn how to apply the cleaner using nothing but a plain old vacuum hose. The results are 100% effective (no, I don't sell the stuff, and have nothing to gain by promoting it). If used every 15k miles, the throttle body, intake, valves, and even the tops of the pistons will be restored to like-new condition.

That said, over the course of 100,000 miles of driving, one would spend $100 to do what an expensive catch can does. Add to the fact that you are required to drain the can every few thousand miles, it makes the can method a less desireable option. As for your claim of MPG increase, there may be some fact there, but it's minimal at best.

Now, if someone wants to put something pretty under their hood, that's a different argument. But for those that have become unnecessarily paranoid about something that is completely normal, that's what a snake-oil saleman does: creates a need when there isn't one.

No personal offense intended. I'm just here to make sure that all the facts are laid out for other people's benefit. I read far to many false claims on this site, and because of my technical background and knowledge, I share what I know.

good stuff

strych9 so not adding a catch can will be fine if you keep maintainence every 15k with the cleaning?
but having a catch can, would it be less to clean? would the catch can help maintain the intake cleanER?
and final Q' not having a catch can at all.. does this damage anything else thats not be apart of the intake ?

[xx_ED_xx]

LOL, well as you can tell dealership tech why buy a catch can when you can sell a service and smoke up the whole neighbor hood doing the induction service. Me personally I would rather the oil not be there to have to clean.

[Oxtar41]

Originally Posted by strych9

Every car on the road does this. It's a side-effect of a PCV system that is operating normally. If the induction system isn't cleaned as a part of regular maintenance (every 15k miles, or so), you have a potential for a loss of performance, and even drivability issues. A good cleaning product runs around $10-$15 a can.

So what gain is there with the catch can? You're still losing oil to the can that will never be reused in the engine. They cost $100 - $200. What is the gain?

This isn't cost-effective. The gain, in my opinion, is equivilent to putting clothespins on your fuel lines to get better MPG. Yeah, some folks believe that works, too.

Snake oil...that's all it is. Flame away.

I'm gonna have to call bullshit here. I have had a catch can since day 1 pretty much and this is what the inside of my motor looks like after 21000 hard supercharged miles. I often empty my can and i never got a pic of the valves but they were just as clean. Sure seems like a waste...

Im also a Subaru certified master technician, GM Master tech, and have my ASE's and built a mid 9 second 92 camaro with my dad on an all motor SBC. I have used BG products and they work OK at best.

I personally dont like using the stuff as it seems like a waste to me and I honestly have never seen any real gain to using it. If anything BG is snake oil. But thats just my 02. I have used enough bg to turn the BG chips in once a month to make about 60 bucks at the end of the month. My dealer sells the hell out of it.

[Abstrak]

I plan on trading in for a 13 2LT in Sept so this will be the first on my list I have 5500 on my '12 now

[strych9]

Originally Posted by Camaro588

a slow clap....leading to a fast and loud clap! LOL! well played sir!
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/images/smilies/clap.gif

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Can't_C_Me

I don't know what your seeing but many others and I on here have done before and after. I have done it on both my cars and my can catch's the oil and my IM stays clean. Why pay anything every few miles when you can avoid it all by buying a good catch can? Yes your qualified I guess, but your argument misses the point of the thread. Which is to avoid the oil not clean it up every few miles

I never said a catch can doesn't work, they do. I don't want a catch can for several reasons, cost being only one of them. My point here is that it is not a necessary add-on, as so many here have been led to believe.

Originally Posted by bluecam805

good stuff

strych9 so not adding a catch can will be fine if you keep maintainence every 15k with the cleaning?
but having a catch can, would it be less to clean? would the catch can help maintain the intake cleanER?
and final Q' not having a catch can at all.. does this damage anything else thats not be apart of the intake ?

A catch can's benefit is that your engine will stay cleaner as it gets used. While regular maintenance will resore your intake and valves to a condition that equals the catch can method, the fact remains that your engine will continue to add oil deposits until that maintenance is performed. This is the natural design of the emission sytem, and does no harm to the engine.

Originally Posted by PQ

All that qualification and can't afford a catch can for added maintenance?

My financial status isn't any of your business. I think the catch can is simply a waste of money, unsightly, unnecessary, and i refuse to spend money on something I don't want, or need.

Originally Posted by xx_ED_xx

LOL, well as you can tell dealership tech why buy a catch can when you can sell a service and smoke up the whole neighbor hood doing the induction service. Me personally I would rather the oil not be there to have to clean.

I understand your preference, and it's logical for you. My point is that so many people on this site have been led to believe that this is a "must have" component, and it isn't. I am offering an alternative solution for those that might want to know about it.

Originally Posted by Oxtar41

I'm gonna have to call bullshit here. I have had a catch can since day 1 pretty much and this is what the inside of my motor looks like after 21000 hard supercharged miles. I often empty my can and i never got a pic of the valves but they were just as clean. Sure seems like a waste...

Again, I didn't say that it doesn't work. But at the same time, the deposits that get in the engine in-between maintenance intervals do absolutely no harm to it. It's a matter of preference.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by strych9

My financial status isn't any of your business. I think the catch can is simply a waste of money, unsightly, unnecessary, and i refuse to spend money on something I don't want, or need.

Fair enough. Just put an exclamation point at the end of my post then.

I'm sure your credentials include the tree hugging side of things to.

Your opinion is noted. But my opinion makes more sense to me. Hence the 'opinion' I guess.

100.00 for a catch can that stops the oil that you claim 15.00 per can every 15000 miles and at 105k miles under YOUR system you've spent that money anyway.

You opened up the personal info part of it. I just assumed you're a know it all with a good angle on writing resumes.

But each to his own. I'll use the catch can after pouring oil out of my intake at 16k miles.

Originally Posted by strych9

I'm just here to make sure that all the facts are laid out for other people's benefit.

Thank you very much Charlie Sheen.

[strych9]

Originally Posted by PQ

I'm sure your credentials include the tree hugging side of things to.

[Brutal SS]

I have over 22k miles and no catch can. I learned about catch cans on this site, and after learning of them I wanted one, but I don't want to void my warranty just yet. Some might say that it won't void the warranty, but my dealer's service manager has made it clear that it will. Some others will say put one on, but take it off if a warranty claim is needed prior to taking it in, but...

I am just above a bumbling idiot when it comes to automotive mechanics and currently have no tools. That said, my question to you guys who are knowledgeable about this is, what procedure do I request of my dealer if I want the cleaning done? Would I be wasting money? I don't see any recommended maintenance from GM regarding this, or maybe I missed that part. Thanks to all in advance.

[strych9]

Originally Posted by Brutal SS

I have over 22k miles and no catch can. I learned about catch cans on this site, and after learning of them I wanted one, but I don't want to void my warranty just yet. Some might say that it won't void the warranty, but my dealer's service manager has made it clear that it will. Some others will say put one on, but take it off if a warranty claim is needed prior to taking it in, but...

I am just above a bumbling idiot when it comes to automotive mechanics and currently have no tools. That said, my question to you guys who are knowledgeable about this is, what procedure do I request of my dealer if I want the cleaning done? Would I be wasting money? I don't see any recommended maintenance from GM regarding this, or maybe I missed that part. Thanks to all in advance.

You would want to request a complete induction service. It usually consists of running chemical through your throttle body and intake, followed by an additive placed in the fuel tank. Done properly, this would result in a clean throttle body, intake, valves, and piston faces.

Seafoam works well, too. You can buy the kit at your local parts store and it has instructions to guide you through the procedure.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by Brutal SS

I have over 22k miles and no catch can. I learned about catch cans on this site, and after learning of them I wanted one, but I don't want to void my warranty just yet. Some might say that it won't void the warranty, but my dealer's service manager has made it clear that it will. Some others will say put one on, but take it off if a warranty claim is needed prior to taking it in, but...

I am just above a bumbling idiot when it comes to automotive mechanics and currently have no tools. That said, my question to you guys who are knowledgeable about this is, what procedure do I request of my dealer if I want the cleaning done? Would I be wasting money? I don't see any recommended maintenance from GM regarding this, or maybe I missed that part. Thanks to all in advance.

Don't let the professor scare you away from a catch can.

I can't imagine a warranty being voided due to this. It's literally a 5 minute install. But your concern is valid of course since your dealer told you that.

I can certainly understand the piece of mind that not having to mess with it will give you. In that case, like Master strych9, said you can do the chemical maintenance at home. The additives and induction cleaner like seafoam. A catch can is way easier than doing those things though. So if you don't want to do a catch can due to not being mechanically inclined then you'll have just as much problem with the other. And if you can't do it then you'll have to have someone do it which can cost even more. These are the reasons a catch can makes so much sense.

So while I agree that a catch can isn't a life and death of the engine mod, it is plenty worth the small investment to not have to do the rest of the maintenance as often.

[SC2150]

Originally Posted by strych9

Firstly, my qualifications:

1. Associates degree in automotive technology
2. ASE Master Certification in A1-A8, plus L1
3. Ford Senior Master-Certified technician, the third tech in the nation to achieve this
4. 18 years as a professional drivability, engine, and electrical technician
5. Former drag and dirt track racer

Yeah, I'm qualified.

You can get a can of BG induction cleaner for $15. Anyone can learn how to apply the cleaner using nothing but a plain old vacuum hose. The results are 100% effective (no, I don't sell the stuff, and have nothing to gain by promoting it). If used every 15k miles, the throttle body, intake, valves, and even the tops of the pistons will be restored to like-new condition.

That said, over the course of 100,000 miles of driving, one would spend $100 to do what an expensive catch can does. Add to the fact that you are required to drain the can every few thousand miles, it makes the can method a less desireable option. As for your claim of MPG increase, there may be some fact there, but it's minimal at best.

Now, if someone wants to put something pretty under their hood, that's a different argument. But for those that have become unnecessarily paranoid about something that is completely normal, that's what a snake-oil saleman does: creates a need when there isn't one.

No personal offense intended. I'm just here to make sure that all the facts are laid out for other people's benefit. I read far to many false claims on this site, and because of my technical background and knowledge, I share what I know.

Impressive qualifications...so you have my respect on that for sure.

The RX can is 2-3 times the capacity of the average one so it only needs to be emptied every oil change (even 10k miles).

So that makes it easy as it comees with a drain line that exits the bottom of the engine compartment to make it super easy.

You are right on on upper induction cleaning, but the dealer charges $140-$450 and the cleaning is not 100% or even near it. The proper functioning can (and most let far to much through so only partially help) keeps the oil out.

You only want air/fuel in the combustion chamber. Any oil ingestion in the intake air charge reduces the amount of energy released per explosive event and that is less power, less economy. The fuel economy increase of 1-3 mpg on average is well documented by dozens on here that have these installed. So, that savings is constant. (we have sold over 10,000 of these over the years and fleets of light trucks and vans are the biggest customers...they purchase them for the fuel economy improvement alone).

The oil ingestion also causes detonation which you can see when looging with HP tuners, etc. so when the ECM detects spark knock, it pulls timing....less power & less economy.

What the can does to prevent the carbon & gunk buildup over time is only one of the benefits. Stopping the deposits before they form is far better than trying to remove them after the fact.

Outrageous claims and snake oil are the turbonator type scams, magnets for the fuel line, etc. Outrageous claims are "tb spacer adds up to 30 rwhp!!!! and such as we all know they dont. This is proven and documented time and again.

[SC2150]

Chevy dealers are some of our biggest customers, but this does reduce the revenues generated from the upper induction cleaning.

The other thing I did not point out is when you do an upper induction cleaning you are loosening the deposits and gunk and most is expelled out the exhaust, but the carbon deposits are diamond like hard and some of the finer particles will be forced past the rings, into the ringlands, and cause minor coring to the cylinder walls as well as the possiblity of a ring sticking. So prevent the deposits from forming in the firstplace.

Also, any roots style blower application the intercooler is mounted between the blower and the cylinder heads, and this is what one looks like after just 8k miles:


You can see the flow is already partially blocked (say 10-15%) and the residue and varnish also insulate and hamper the ability to cool the intake air charge. Over time this gets progressivly more obstructed. That and the rotors of a top mount SC are traveling and over 20,000 rpms and in opposite directions. They come finely balanced when new and the build up quickly begins to throw off the balance and increased bearing wear is the result. That and the leading edge of the rotors are very close tolerances in the clearance from each other....when the buildup is thick enough and the leading edges make contact, even though the varnish is soft, at the speeds the rotors are turning it is like kitting metal and errosin of the leading edges begins and efficiency degrades over time.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by SC2150

Chevy dealers are some of our biggest customers, but this does reduce the revenues generated from the upper induction cleaning.

The other thing I did not point out is when you do an upper induction cleaning you are loosening the deposits and gunk and most is expelled out the exhaust, but the carbon deposits are diamond like hard and some of the finer particles will be forced past the rings, into the ringlands, and cause minor coring to the cylinder walls as well as the possiblity of a ring sticking. So prevent the deposits from forming in the firstplace.

Also, any roots style blower application the intercooler is mounted between the blower and the cylinder heads, and this is what one looks like after just 8k miles:


You can see the flow is already partially blocked (say 10-15%) and the residue and varnish also insulate and hamper the ability to cool the intake air charge. Over time this gets progressivly more obstructed. That and the rotors of a top mount SC are traveling and over 20,000 rpms and in opposite directions. They come finely balanced when new and the build up quickly begins to throw off the balance and increased bearing wear is the result. That and the leading edge of the rotors are very close tolerances in the clearance from each other....when the buildup is thick enough and the leading edges make contact, even though the varnish is soft, at the speeds the rotors are turning it is like kitting metal and errosin of the leading edges begins and efficiency degrades over time.

It was this that actually pushed me over the edge to buying one. When I took the blower off to find my air leak there was a TON of oil in it.

[IndeedSS1]

My catch can was catching the proof I needed to get my valley covered replaced under warranty. I broke a valve spring a few weeks ago and it was replaced under warranty with catch can install. Service writer ask me if I wanted a top engine clean then remembered I had a catch can and said I guess you don't need it done.

I guess it has to do with your dealership, how truely experienced the techs and service writers are, and your relationship with them.

[willhe64]

Originally Posted by strych9

Firstly, my qualifications:

1. Associates degree in automotive technology
2. ASE Master Certification in A1-A8, plus L1
3. Ford Senior Master-Certified technician, the third tech in the nation to achieve this
4. 18 years as a professional drivability, engine, and electrical technician
5. Former drag and dirt track racer

Yeah, I'm qualified.

Thus proving the old adage, you can't teach common sense.

1. Let your engine clog up and clean it every 15,000 miles.

2. Install something that prevents your engine from clogging up.

Geeez, tough call.

Sucking oil into the intake is something that happens to all pcv equipped engines yes, but it is not normal operations. It is a side effect, an undesirable result from recirculating gases that get past the rings and into the crankcase.

Buildup can harm engines. It can create hot spots in the combustion chambers that can cause detonation.

A catch can is a great solution to this. Pouring in stuff that will wash all that crap through your engine is not.

Common sense.

[SC2150]

strych is not alone, I estimate most all of techs/shops no matter how experianced or how well known the shops name do not fully understand proper crankcase evacuation and the issues oil ingestion causes....he is far from alone. And his qualifications are excellent.

I know of several of the largest most recgnized names in the aftermarket performance business, and one of the largest Maggie installers dont understand the damage caused by oil ingestion.....and the one even still claims "it is good to have oil ingestion on a blower car". So I completely understand where he is coming from.

Now, those w/out qualifications that just have the "I have never needed one in the past", or the "If it needed one, GM would have one from the factory" that I call out.

[PQ]

Funny thing is if you remember I said the same thing as he did (other than the accusations of fraudulence ) a while back. Difference is I"m not narcissistic or qualified.

But you don't have to be a Fields Medal winner to know that 2+2=4.

[willhe64]

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Who knows? Oil ingestion may be good for a roots blower, lube the teflon strips? Still doesn't mean it is good for the engine.

[PQ]

Originally Posted by willhe64

Who knows? Oil ingestion may be good for a roots blower, lube the teflon strips?

Magnuson says no. Neither is seafoam.

[SC2150]

Just the opposite on the roots blower...the buildup of varnish/deposits throws the balance off and when it gets thick enough can cause damage to the leading edges.

It dosen't build up nearly as fast as the intercooler, but is still an issue over time.

But the real issue with FI is the detonation battle that the oil causes.....most tuners deal with this.

[mikeSS]

you guys make this out to be a major engine destroying problem. how do any car on the road even make it to 100k miles ? most people do not take good care of there engines. and dont even know what a catch can is.

also i would honestly rather have the cleaning done, i just like the idea better. its really not a money thing to me. its the idea that i have my engine cleaned, and checked.

[willhe64]

Would you not rather have an engine that doesn't get dirty than an engine that gets dirty and needs to be cleaned?

Common sense, not so common.

[SC2150]

Your engine will run 100k, 150k or more w/out one.....but how will it run is all laid out in detail in this thread. And willhe is correct. Keep the deposits from forming in the first place and your motor not only lasts longer, but you retain the power and fuel economy it started with.

Also, the upper induction/seafoam cleaning is not w/out risk as I also laid out in the above posts. Most would not throw a bunch of debris/dirt into there intake would they? The upper induction cleaning breaks much (not all) of the hard deposits loose and in runs through the motor and rarely will small particles of a hard abrasive substance travel through w/out some cylinder scoring.

Lets try this....can you give any reasons why the oil ingestion, detonation it causes, the deposits are good in any way? Just because 99% of car & light truck owners never have a clue what goes on inside their motor should never be a reason not to have the best for it, unless you really dont care. People spend tons of $ on bling, lights, emblems, chrome or billet caps & covers......but this not only keeps the motor like new longer, who wants power degradation and increased wear, and poor fuel economy? Just lay out the resoning behind not wanting the best/longest/most efficient life out of your motor.

[coloeb]

I have been a U.S.C.G. Licensed Chief Engineer for 30 years. While I lack any certifications for automotive work, I do have a better than average understanding of all things mechanical.
I think everyone can agree that these deposits are not good for your engine. How you take care of thier removal is your business. As for me I will install the catch can because its just better and less expensive. Most don't count the fact that your time is worth money too. Draing the can is faster and more convienant than a trip to the dealership or the parts house.

[Brutal SS]

That's what my dealer said, "If GM wanted it that way, they would have designed it that way." This came from the same person who, when asked, did not even know what a catch can was . Admittedly, I didn't hardly know either, but I'm not a service manager. Maybe if I had said "oil separator"? In any case, I could tell right away that the words "aftermarket" and "modification" to him equals "warranty voided".

So in a case where someone is about to turn 23k miles with no catch can, would it be recommended to do the cleaning first, then the install, or just live with what has already accumulated and install a catch can to prevent any further ingestion?

The idea of leftover deposits being knocked loose and swirling around doesn't make one feel warm and fuzzy...