Inside Line: 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 vs. 2013 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 Comparison

[HumanWiki]

Originally Posted by oortcloud

Does the GT in GT500 stand for gran turismo? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_tourer

If so, then the the gt500 is a "high-performance luxury automobile designed for long-distance driving".

If that's the case, then so is GTO "Gran Turismo Omologato"

[rez333]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

Have your ever driven on Highway 1 between Carmel and Big Sir?

No, but I guarantee no-one is pushing it on those roads. How can anyone do real track-like performance driving on any street? It's downright suicidal and dangerous to others - you'd need to use up at least 3 lanes to do it properly.

Some people are thinking that the fancy handling will count on the street - it simply won't. If you could push your car to the limits on a street enough feel the handling, you'd either be driving illegally or driving a car with average handling. I've never taken any on-ramp like I've taken a corner on a track - it's simply too dangerous and I'd have to cross lanes to do it.

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by rez333

spoken like someone who's never been on a road course.

I've been on both road courses and strips, and strips far better represent real-life North American roads than road courses. There's no way in heck you're going to be tearing down straightaways at 160mph and then slowing down to 60mph in an instant then taking the ideal line around the corner on the street - where have you EVER seen anyone drive like that on the street? You'd either be rear-ended or you'd side-swipe someone.

But as we all know, ZL1s will be matched against GT500s on the streets at the lights, and guess what that's similar to?

BS you have never driven in the mountians of east Tennessee you don't have to drive Balls to the wall, the difference is being able to take a 25 mph hairpin at 25 or 50, drag times don't mean a lot in the corners and every where I have driven except for Texas and Florida, there are many more curves than straights.
But you missed my point if you think all people are going to do with their cars on the street is race Shelbys. That is against the law and if you get caught you lose your $ 60,000 car.

[Steve Dallas]

Anyone notice how the mustang lost the rear end in the skidpad test? Seems like the ZL1 was under control the whole time.

[adamgl]

Originally Posted by rez333

spoken like someone who's never been on a road course.

I've been on both road courses and strips, and strips far better represent real-life North American roads than road courses. There's no way in heck you're going to be tearing down straightaways at 160mph and then slowing down to 60mph in an instant then taking the ideal line around the corner on the street - where have you EVER seen anyone drive like that on the street? You'd either be rear-ended or you'd side-swipe someone.

But as we all know, ZL1s will be matched against GT500s on the streets at the lights, and guess what that's similar to?

I've seen it, lol. But I live where there is practically no traffic.

[rez333]

Originally Posted by 2cnd chance

They're both disqualified by your quoted definition; "Sold at an affordable price" of which they are not.

I disagree. In Europe, and Asia, the ZL1 and GT500 (North American prices) are down-right bargain basement pricing. The last I looked, Europeans/Asians generally aren't paid much higher than North Americans - and they pay more tax in Europe.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by rez333

No, but I guarantee no-one is pushing it on those roads. How can anyone do real track-like performance driving on any street? It's downright suicidal and dangerous to others - you'd need to use up at least 3 lanes to do it properly.

Some people are thinking that the fancy handling will count on the street - it simply won't. If you could push your car to the limits on a street enough feel the handling, you'd either be driving illegally or driving a car with average handling. I've never taken any on-ramp like I've taken a corner on a track - it's simply too dangerous and I'd have to cross lanes to do it.

I'm not referring to achieving the upper limits of track-like performance on a public road, but handling does count on public roads.

One doesn't have to push a car to the limits to make use of, or enjoy, a good handling car on a winding public road. Driving down Highway 1 between Carmel and Big Sur will be a lot more enjoyable in a new ZL1 than it would be in a 1967 Chevelle SS396.

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by rez333

I disagree. In Europe, and Asia, the ZL1 and GT500 (North American prices) are down-right bargain basement pricing. The last I looked, Europeans/Asians generally aren't paid much higher than North Americans - and they pay more tax in Europe.

Are we in Europe? Or Asia? Where's my geography book?
Also isn't Europe more into road racing than drag racing?

[nanokpsi]

Originally Posted by oortcloud

It's not naive at all. This may be the first h2h review, but virtually all the other zl1 reviews say the same thing - the zl1 has impressive handling (for a muscle car). And these include full road course reviews. This h2h review is simply another argument to support the theory until we have more h2h road course tests.

As for brakes, they both stopped very close together. The zl1 is heavier but it has 2 piece front rotors and brake ducts which should help offset the extra heat. So I don't think the shelby has a brake advantage.

The shelby has slightly poorer front/rear weight distribution too. But the cornering advantage is already with the zl1.

Acceleration advantage is definitely with the shelby. But will it be enough?

Edit: Actually I just read (correct me I'm wrong) the 2013 shelby does not have a front brake duct option. I suppose its an easy mod however.

Playing on back roads single file certainly does not have a direct correlation to what the road course times will be. Even if the road holding advantage does hold true, by running the cars in single file with the ZL1 in front, the HUGE acceleration advantage of the GT500 is nullified.
Have you even had an impromptu street brawl with a car that traps 8mph higher than you? Think stock SS vs a new corvette from a roll.The difference is quite large and the gap opens up very quickly. Clearly the advantage cannot be utilized in a back road situation.

Add to that the ZL1 is more confidence inspiring so the GT500 driver is probably not pushing the car to its true potential, and you can see what can happen.

Again, SVT has already beaten some of GMs published times for the ZL1, so the prudent people are wise to wait for true track comparisons before claiming victory. Otherwsie there might not be enough crow to go around.

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by nanokpsi

. Otherwsie there might not be enough crow to go around.

hhhmmm crow.. Anyone have any BBQ sauce?

[DanSS24]

Originally Posted by Steve Dallas

Anyone notice how the mustang lost the rear end in the skidpad test? Seems like the ZL1 was under control the whole time.

It appeared the driver was attempting to get more g's and throttled it...and lost it. Hence the low g number. I was amazed that the ZL1 got more than 1 g, which is cool. Just imagine taking the on or off ramp on a highway.

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by DanSS24

It appeared the driver was attempting to get more g's and throttled it...and lost it. Hence the low g number. I was amazed that the ZL1 got more than 1 g, which is cool. Just imagine taking the on or off ramp on a highway.

I think they just published the best numbers in each category, any good tester knows not to rely on one run. I say that run in the skid pad was not the one they used, unless it WAS the best they could do.

[DanSS24]

Originally Posted by Skyman 08

I think they just published the best numbers in each category, any good tester knows not to rely on one run. I say that run in the skid pad was not the one they used, unless it WAS the best they could do.

Similar to drag runs. Taking the lowest (best) numbers and posting it. The high g numbers on the skid pad showed the set ups on both cars. Both cars use the same tires, so the suspension set up on the ZL1 really shined in comparison to the GT500. Now what I want to see is the brake test. I wonder if it will make a difference being that the GT500 only has Brembo brakes in the front, while the ZL1 has Brembo on all fours. GT500 is lighter so it should stop shorter, but what about continuous stops. I haven't seen any test on that yet.

[lbls1]

The outcome was predictable, but somehow the chevy's acceleration was a tad disappointing (when compared to its initial published results). The cts-v coupe did better with edmunds' test a year ago.

Its nice that the zl1's handling proved to be better than the ford, but I'm still wanting a more competitive edge in acceleration from chevy when going against the gt500.

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by DanSS24

Similar to drag runs. Taking the lowest (best) numbers and posting it. The high g numbers on the skid pad showed the set ups on both cars. Both cars use the same tires, so the suspension set up on the ZL1 really shined in comparison to the GT500. Now what I want to see is the brake test. I wonder if it will make a difference being that the GT500 only has Brembo brakes in the front, while the ZL1 has Brembo on all fours. GT500 is lighter so it should stop shorter, but what about continuous stops. I haven't seen any test on that yet.

Yep, 1 ft with a car weighing over 200 pound less is not a lot of difference. Since the Shelby has more forward weight it's front brakes have to do more of the work than the Camaro's. Nothing was mentioned about repeated stops with no cool down time and fading. I would like to hear about that also. That would make a difference after several laps on a road course. Th Shelby could actually catch up if his brakes held up better, then again if the faded more the outcome would be much worse for it.
Then again who needs brakes in a drag race? Remember some on here only want a drag car so brake fade is of no consequence. True muscle cars have terrible brakes.

[DanSS24]

Originally Posted by lbls1

The outcome was predictable, but somehow the chevy's acceleration was a tad disappointing (when compared to its initial published results). The cts-v coupe did better with edmunds' test a year ago.

Its nice that the zl1's handling proved to be better than the ford, but I'm still wanting a more competitive edge in acceleration from chevy when going against the gt500.

I think having a bigger supercharger has alot to do with that. I wish the ZL1 could accelerate faster also, but I think there was reason why Chevy went with the smaller supercharger.

[IOMZL1]

Originally Posted by rez333

No, but I guarantee no-one is pushing it on those roads. How can anyone do real track-like performance driving on any street? It's downright suicidal and dangerous to others - you'd need to use up at least 3 lanes to do it properly.

Some people are thinking that the fancy handling will count on the street - it simply won't. If you could push your car to the limits on a street enough feel the handling, you'd either be driving illegally or driving a car with average handling. I've never taken any on-ramp like I've taken a corner on a track - it's simply too dangerous and I'd have to cross lanes to do it.

Same arguments can be used for drag strip like acceleration on the street?

[Mr. Unassailable]

Some quality conversation there. I guess I'm old school. I drive my SS when I'm in a frisky mood or when I am taking my woman out(my work truck sees around 60% of my miles driven and the Taurus SHO sees like 35%). Where I live you stand no chance of road course like conditions being part of your travel plan. So the muscle car theme is what fits for my toy car. Acceleration from a red light and acceleration from a roll (high speed roll) are most important to me. I was a sponsored road course racer on bikes (you can google my screen name and see YouTube vids if you doubt it), I'm not a road course hater, I just don't feel the car road course stuff.


Sent from my iPhone

[KKreme15]

Originally Posted by DanSS24

It appeared the driver was attempting to get more g's and throttled it...and lost it. Hence the low g number. I was amazed that the ZL1 got more than 1 g, which is cool. Just imagine taking the on or off ramp on a highway.

I pulled .88g on an on ramp the other day

[Mr. Unassailable]

Originally Posted by IOMZL1

Same arguments can be used for drag strip like acceleration on the street?

Negative. Illegal as it may be, people race off from red lights very frequently. Or one pulls up next to the other and they burn off from a roll. Lining up 8-10 cars on a twisty road and going balls out is much less likely.


Sent from my iPhone

[WILDHEMI]

Looks like the ZL1 has one up on the GT500 with that MRC.....

[DanSS24]

Originally Posted by KKreme15

I pulled .88g on an on ramp the other day

Ahh...come on, you can do better.

[LOWDOWN]

Originally Posted by Deki

And the 2011 GT500 was faster than the Boss 302 around the track, so there is no need to put the Boss 302 suspension on the new GT500.

Repeating the same ol' mistruths doesn't make 'em any more truthful...

Lightning Lap '12 - 2012 BOSS LS = 3:02.8

Lightning Lap '11 - 2011 GT500 = 3:04.0

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...2-class-page-4

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...2-class-page-3

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by Mr. Unassailable

Negative. Illegal as it may be, people race off from red lights very frequently. Or one pulls up next to the other and they burn off from a roll. Lining up 8-10 cars on a twisty road and going balls out is much less likely.

I think IOM was referring to the fact that the illegality, dangerousness, and suicidal arguments of track like driving on the street can also be used with regard to drag strip like driving on the street.

[GoldenBear]

Originally Posted by LOWDOWN

Repeating the same ol' mistruths doesn't make 'em any more truthful...

Lightning Lap '12 - 2012 BOSS LS = 3:02.8

Lightning Lap '11 - 2011 GT500 = 3:04.0

LD, don't you know that if you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.