Inside Line: 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 vs. 2013 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 Comparison

[Kiss My SS]

I personally love both cars, and its a great time to be able to buy either car! We should be glad that we have these 2 great choices!

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Bob Cosby

Just a bit of fact checking....its 270 lbs, not 400 (4120 vs 3850). That's still quite significant, but 130 lbs either way would make even more difference.

It is 82 HP not 90 HP (580 vs 662). 8 HP might be splitting hairs, but again, would rather have it than not. Tq is closer - 5 lb/ft.

And similar to what I posted in another thread, could you not turn your statement around to read like this...



Just a thought.

670 hp for quick limited time at max rpm, was the number being thrown around in the SVT land, thus 90-hp. SVT gangs data, not mine . Looking at some of the dyno pulls of the 500 I think it may be slightly above that.

[affox83]

Originally Posted by rez333

You know it's amazing how well the ZL1 handles, but I can't help shake the feeling that it isn't the driver any more.

I feel that the GT-R is such a cheat car. I have no respect for any driver of a GT-R because the lap/strip times are all thanks to computer engineers in Tokyo. The GT500/Viper are such basic cars at their core and I have respect for drivers who can turn out hero times because it's all driver.

On the other hand the ZL1 is clearly superior because of the computerized suspension. So you can get better lap times in a video game, so what? Automatic, traction control, launch control, stability control, ABS, computerized suspension - where does it all end and driver skill begins?

The article even admitted it: you need skill to drive the GT500 - isn't that the whole point of owning a sports car?

I get what you are saying as I sometimes feel the same way, but at the same time, you must be able to respect a car that is engineered so well that the most average driver can pull great times with it. Along my journey of life I have realized one thing: about 95% of drivers can't drive 50% as well as they think they can.

Concerning the ZL1 and those 5% of drivers...well, that's what Mode 5 is for. Back to topic, as has been said before many times...buy what you like and enjoy the hell out of it. I am a Camaro guy all the way, but I won't point and laugh at someone in a GT500. Fast cars are fast cars. Both cars are amazing and reviews are just opinions substantiated with numbers. Just because a movie I want to see gets a less than stellar review doesn't mean that I won't go watch it and more than likely enjoy it anyway. They are most likely trying to get across that the ZL1 provides a more accessible level of performance for the average joe.

[Van@RevanRacing]

Originally Posted by Erik@Torq

Damn, that's moving! As you said that is an awesome time with street tires as well. I believe my fastest time last year in my 2010 SS was 2.31. I had quite a bit done to the suspension and was making about 450rwhp N/A.

I will be heading up to Sebring in July to get some laps in the ZL1, it will be my 3rd time there so I hope to get some good runs in!

I plan on being there if I get my credentials in time, I should be getting them in August. Are you guys running a Vbox or similar? It would be cool to compare the data and graphs to see which one does better or worse in the different sections.

/Erik

Erik

Great! I'm not currently running a VBox but that could be done and a great idea by the way.

What group are you running with in July and what are the dates? Perhaps we could get out there as early as next month? Do they do timed laps with an AMB Transponder or would we have to use VBox technology to determine times?

I look forward to getting back out to Sebring and potentially running with you and meeting you.

Van

[Bob Cosby]

Originally Posted by newmoon

670 hp for quick limited time at max rpm, was the number being thrown around in the SVT land, thus 90-hp. SVT gangs data, not mine . Looking at some of the dyno pulls of the 500 I think it may be slightly above that.

Ok, but its rated at 662 vs 580.

Will give you that RWHP is probably averaging a bit more of a difference than one might expect based on the rated HP. Most GT500s are running ~600-610 RWHP, while M6 ZL1s seem to be in the neighborhood of 510-520 RWHP....about a 90 RWHP difference, though I do not wish to be accused of dyno racing!

[Devilfish]

Originally Posted by A-little-perspective

Whoever said that the obvious question to them..... Is the GT500 still a one trick pony?

In the hands of a capable driver, no. But with an average to unexperienced owner/driver yes.

I get what you are saying as I sometimes feel the same way, but at the same time, you must be able to respect a car that is engineered so well that the most average driver can pull great times with it. Along my journey of life I have realized one thing: about 95% of drivers can't drive 50% as well as they think they can.

This! If you ask 90% of guys that own sports cars they do the 24 hours of Le Mans 5 times a year and have 20 years of passes in a funny car.

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by Van@RevanRacing

The invitation still stands. However many laps comparably prepared cars in Time Trial at Sebring. I understand someone by the name of Erik at Torq might be able to enter time trial and possibly do this.

A real world comparo is what I'm looking for and someone willing to try and make the playing field level with essentially stock cars. That is all.

Regardless of what the magazines say let's do our own track times. I've never hung my hat on a magazine article. I've always gone out and done it.

I'll bring the Blue Oval Product we just need someone to bring the Bowtie Product and let's get er' done!

Van

If you want everything level then you need an unbiased driver to drive both cars. Different drivers will have an effect on the outcome also.

Who will determine what "stock" is? Will it be base model to base model or will you allow factory performance enhancing options?

[74z28]

I as it in another thread and was inpolitely shut down. Mabe this is the correct thread. Most people change and upgrade tires on these cars when the rubber gets worn. My question is how much of the handining is the Mag ride suspension or the 3" more of rubber the Z has on the ground?
tire sizes:
ZL-1 = 285/35 - 20 front & 305/35 - 20 rear
GT500 = 265/40 - 19 front & 285/35 - 20 rear
Just wondering what would or would not change on equal rubber.
Ford has always been notorious for small rubber on their cars.
We know the ride quality for the mag ride will be better over the entire range of driving, just wondering for track lap times and stability.
most of these cars will not see a lot of miles but what is the lifespan andrepair/replacement costs of the Mag suspension in the future? I tend to kee my cars a long time.

[rez333]

Originally Posted by affox83

I get what you are saying as I sometimes feel the same way, but at the same time, you must be able to respect a car that is engineered so well that the most average driver can pull great times with it. Along my journey of life I have realized one thing: about 95% of drivers can't drive 50% as well as they think they can.

.

Yes but there is mechanical engineering, and computer engineering. There are some suspension kits (eg. Griggs Racing) for the Mustangs that make them out-corner Ferraris (literally), but have too much NVH for most people's tastes who will mostly drive on the street. I respect mechanical improvements, but not computerized ones.

[Obzen]

Originally Posted by cobrakon

hell even the 2011 gt500 ran the same time as the zl1. maybe the zl1 suspension is not all that great after all. personally i would take a 2011 - 2013 gt500 over a zl1 anyday.

[rez333]

Originally Posted by Van@RevanRacing

The invitation still stands. However many laps comparably prepared cars in Time Trial at Sebring. I understand someone by the name of Erik at Torq might be able to enter time trial and possibly do this.

A real world comparo is what I'm looking for and someone willing to try and make the playing field level with essentially stock cars. That is all.

Regardless of what the magazines say let's do our own track times. I've never hung my hat on a magazine article. I've always gone out and done it.

I'll bring the Blue Oval Product we just need someone to bring the Bowtie Product and let's get er' done!

Van

The problem with magazine times is that they are from drivers who don't specialize in a particular car. When we're talking about owning cars, presumably an owner will know how to drive their car properly and get much better and more consistent times.

In other words, the magazine's assertion that the GT500 can't get consistently good lap times may be false in the hands of a GT500 specialized racer. Van is seeking to prove this, I assume.

[HDRDTD]

2013 GT 500 - Power
ZL1 - Precision

[Angrybird 12]

Originally Posted by rez333

The problem with magazine times is that they are from drivers who don't specialize in a particular car. When we're talking about owning cars, presumably an owner will know how to drive their car properly and get much better and more consistent times.

In other words, the magazine's assertion that the GT500 can't get consistently good lap times may be false in the hands of a GT500 specialized racer. Van is seeking to prove this, I assume.

Then you bring into account drivier ability and that can be a BIG factor when comparing cars with different drivers. Not really a good test in my book. So how do you determine if both drivers are of equal ability?

[10forty2]

Originally Posted by rez333

You know it's amazing how well the ZL1 handles, but I can't help shake the feeling that it isn't the driver any more.

I feel that the GT-R is such a cheat car. I have no respect for any driver of a GT-R because the lap/strip times are all thanks to computer engineers in Tokyo. The GT500/Viper are such basic cars at their core and I have respect for drivers who can turn out hero times because it's all driver.

On the other hand the ZL1 is clearly superior because of the computerized suspension. So you can get better lap times in a video game, so what? Automatic, traction control, launch control, stability control, ABS, computerized suspension - where does it all end and driver skill begins?

The article even admitted it: you need skill to drive the GT500 - isn't that the whole point of owning a sports car?

I feel ya on this point, but I offer another view....

Which is superior in a dogfight... a modern-day F-15 Eagle fighter jet, or a WWII Corsair? And I think anyone would say the answer would be the F-15. The F15 benefits from superior technology and is therefore the winner hands down in a head to head fight. Of course, the Corsair pilot may have full control of his aircraft via cables, but the F15 pilot has computerized fly-by-wire technology that allows him to dominate the air. When it comes to winning, you take every advantage you can get!!
Now, with that said, I do LOVE to have full control of my vehicles, especially when I'm driving with spirit.... LOL! But I'll also take advantage of technology to make me a better driver!!

[oortcloud]

Originally Posted by Van@RevanRacing

10-50 Laps. Whatever it takes. I've offered to discuss and do it on the road course instead of letting magazines give their impression. I guess if the Shelby had a mag ride suspension this wouldn't be a discussion? Sebring has it's share of tight turns and slow sections. Anybody happen to notice the TTS Porsche take the inside of turn 16?

Incorrect.

Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 Classes (SUR) Translated (TTS, TTU, or TTR)
See page 15 of attached link. http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/time_trial_rules.pdf

Ford (2010-2011) Shelby GT500 Classes (SUR)
See Page 17 on the same link above.

Neither car has been classed as of yet and I ran TTR this weekend.

But it's safe to say that both cars will be "SUR" when classified, right? The weight/HP ratio puts the gt500 in TTU, while the zl1 will be in TTS.

I'm assuming you ran TTR because the 2013 gt500 is new and not classified. I'm not trying to nitpick, I'm mearly pointing out that the cars don't seem to be in the same class.

This doesn't take away from a friendly h2h competition, however. I look forward to hearing more about it.

[rez333]

Originally Posted by Angrybird 12

Then you bring into account drivier ability and that can be a BIG factor when comparing cars with different drivers. Not really a good test in my book. So how do you determine if both drivers are of equal ability?

I think ultimately auto sports are about testing drivers, not cars.

What these magazine comparisons "prove" is which car is "better" to someone who doesn't "know" how to maximize the potential of either car - ie. a new driver.

Maybe we should examine how useful that really is to anyone. The bottom line is that these cars ARE going to be tested against each other on the track in real-life, in the hands of owners who have had time to familiarize themselves with their cars. What good are the magazine comparisons in these situations? Will the loser give the excuse that "oh well I lost, but so-and-so magazine says my car is better".

Here's a good question: does MRS make all drivers "better" as a group, but effectively eliminates outliers? In other words, it prevents really "bad" drivers from getting bad lap times and really good drivers from getting hero times? The Viper is an example of a car that creates outliers - it makes really "bad" drivers kill themselves on the track, but really good drivers can get hero times on Nurburgring.

[collins motorsport]

Well I've seen plenty of races where the guy with the fastest lap still didn't win.

[Bob Cosby]

I agree with your final analysis, but....

Originally Posted by 10forty2

I...Which is superior in a dogfight... a modern-day F-15 Eagle fighter jet, or a WWII Corsair?...

LOL. I'm sorry, and I mean no offense, but as a WWII History buff, and a aviation buff in general....that is a really BAD analogy!

It would be like comparing a ZL1 to a 56 T-Bird....

[A-little-perspective]

Originally Posted by 10forty2

I feel ya on this point, but I offer another view....

Which is superior in a dogfight... a modern-day F-15 Eagle fighter jet, or a WWII Corsair? And I think anyone would say the answer would be the F-15.

But in this theoretical scenario, by creating an analogy of the F-15 (ZL1) and WWII Corsair (GT500), the Corsair just pulled out a victory over an F-15. Can you say impossible?

[TJ91]

Originally Posted by rez333

I had to laugh about this comment:

skyggge says:
06:11 AM, 06/25/2012
Disclaimer: This is purely meant to be humorous.

This is the first thing I thought of after reading this article:

GT500: What are you smiling about?

ZL1: Dude I almost had you!

GT500: Almost had me? You never had me. You never had your car... Ask any racer, any REAL racer. It don't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winnings winning.

[Mr. Unassailable]

Originally Posted by newb

I don't see it as biased. In racing a single fast lap does not win races. Consistency does. The gt500 put down a hero lap or two but the ZL1 was faster and more composed "most" of the time. Having raced motorcycles as a amateur I know that a fast lap is nothing if you can't duplicate it 17 times. Racing is about hitting certain marks and points EVERYTIME, not just for a few laps. So to me, they gave credit where it was due. A great run by the 500, but you would not want to be door to door with one. When inches matter, you could not guarantee the 500 would stay online. And that makes the ZL1 a better track car. Especially for a non professional.

I like that statement, but that speaks of the racer. Not the car. A good rider (driver) will put down consistent laps on whatever equipment they have.

[rez333]

Originally Posted by 10forty2

I feel ya on this point, but I offer another view....

Which is superior in a dogfight... a modern-day F-15 Eagle fighter jet, or a WWII Corsair? And I think anyone would say the answer would be the F-15. The F15 benefits from superior technology and is therefore the winner hands down in a head to head fight. Of course, the Corsair pilot may have full control of his aircraft via cables, but the F15 pilot has computerized fly-by-wire technology that allows him to dominate the air. When it comes to winning, you take every advantage you can get!!
Now, with that said, I do LOVE to have full control of my vehicles, especially when I'm driving with spirit.... LOL! But I'll also take advantage of technology to make me a better driver!!

I actually thought of this very analogy too, but it doesn't count.

In "fighter planes", the prize isn't a trophy, it's life. In plane racing, it's precisely about "cables". There are no computerized planes in plane racing because that wouldn't be fun any more. Plane racing involves planes that are based on WW2 technology. Look at NASCAR or F1 - how much computers are involved in that? The less the better, IMO.

I'm not taking anything away from the ZL1, it's still an amazing car; however being proud of its lap times that are thanks to its computerized suspension rings a little hollow for me.

Taken to an extreme, in the future when computers can finally drive race cars by themselves, will you really be excited if a computerized ZL1 driver can beat a computerized GT500 driver?

[TJ91]

The GT500 is one badass car. Sure the numbers are close, but they are still pretty big in difference. Just look at the 0-60. The ZL1 is amazing dont get me wrong, but the GT500 is the clear winner.

[Van@RevanRacing]

Originally Posted by rez333

I think ultimately auto sports are about testing drivers, not cars.

What these magazine comparisons "prove" is which car is "better" to someone who doesn't "know" how to maximize the potential of either car - ie. a new driver.

Maybe we should examine how useful that really is to anyone. The bottom line is that these cars ARE going to be tested against each other on the track in real-life, in the hands of owners who have had time to familiarize themselves with their cars. What good are the magazine comparisons in these situations? Will the loser give the excuse that "oh well I lost, but so-and-so magazine says my car is better".

This is what I am talking about. Erik is familiar with his ZL1 and I am familiar with my GT500. We'll discuss base to base or modded to modded. It's an open discussion.

The point of the Head to Head COMPARISON is to do just that, have two people familiar with their vehicles push them at a track and record lap times and also potentially use VBox technology to record data and do overlays.

The data overlays are what you will NEVER get from a magazine or the manufacturers. Erik and I would essentially share copies of each others VBox Recordings and be able to overlay ZL1 data in one color and GT500 Data in another that will show speed and lateral G's all the way through the course.

I'm not a Professional Driver. I don't know about Erik, perhaps he is. Regardless, I think the SVT Community and the Camaro Community would all benefit from the information.

Would conclusions ever be drawn? Not likely. Then we can mod the heck out of them and keep going at it. Let's have some fun dammit!

[rez333]

.. I think I want to conclude by saying this:

I think the "better" bench racing test to make, is "what's the best lap any driver can make on either of these cars". I prefer that than comparing lap times by a magazine driver who is not familiar with either car because the former is a test that is closer to what an owner can aspire to; the latter is only as good as the test-drive.

edit: Van - I didn't notice your reply before I wrote this, but it looks like we're on the same page. I agree with you and would prefer to see owner vs owner tests, than the magazine stuff.