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Old 06-19-2012, 03:54 PM   #1
jkchambless
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Known LLT timing chain issue

So awhile back (10,000 miles or so) my 1LT started preforming very poorly; very sluggish, almost no torque. I didn't get a CEL at that time but when I took it into the dealer they said that they just needed to do a update to the ECU and everything was fine when I drove away.

Now to the present (58,000 miles): My car started doing the same thing except this time I did have CEL and the equipment necessary to check the code. Two codes showed up - P0008 and P0009 which translated to:

P0008 Engine Positions System Performance Bank 1
P0009 Engine Position System Performance Bank 2

Note that once I cleared the code, the car behaved normally again.

A little research led me to multiple forums including Cadillac CTX forums where owners where discussing a known issue with the LLT engine where there is premature stretching of the timing chains and in some cases the chains broke and wrecked the engine. Apparently the ECU update was nothing more than changing the sensitivity of the monitoring of the engine....didn't fix anything, just made it ignore minor variances.

I immediately called my dealer and made and appointment to take in the car and guess what; they are replacing the timing chains as I write this and I will hopefully get the care back tomorrow. And it is all under warranty which is great because some estimate it is about a $2500.00 job.
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Old 06-19-2012, 04:07 PM   #2
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Definitely a known issue concerning the LLT and possibly even the LFX engines...although at some point during the 2011 models they starting using a stronger chain.

So this is no suprise, but still sucks none the less and is a real concern of mine because by the time my car has enough miles to show a chain issue my warranty will likely be long gone.

The only advice I've seen thus far is to keep the car's oil level good and check it frequently to help mitigate this issue.
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Old 06-19-2012, 04:28 PM   #3
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This does suck although I heard that this issue was specific to a batch of motors that were made in Mexico but that could just be a myth that was thrown around so don't quote me on it. For what it's worth I looked at my door sticker and my motor came out of Canada. Wish I could have the dealer replace the damn thing now if this applies to the LLT across the board, before I do more mods and ultimately void the warranty. But I've only got 2 yrs left on it and 28k so this issue isn't likely to to come up before it expires anyway. Congrats on getting yours fixed!
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Old 06-19-2012, 04:58 PM   #4
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Mine were replaced a few weeks ago. I posted this thread on it. Mine was also under warranty, and the cost would have been in that 2k - 2.5k range as you said.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225505


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Old 06-19-2012, 05:14 PM   #5
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Mind if I ask how many miles when the chain was replaced?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangore View Post
Mine were replaced a few weeks ago. I posted this thread on it. Mine was also under warranty, and the cost would have been in that 2k - 2.5k range as you said.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225505


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Old 06-19-2012, 05:16 PM   #6
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I want to add......do NOT run syn blend DEXO Ignore the dealer/owners manual andS!!!!! ONLY run full syn to avoid this.

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Old 06-19-2012, 05:37 PM   #7
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Only Mobile 1 full syn in my LLT!!
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:40 PM   #8
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Me too, 34,000 and no problems. Mobil one only
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Old 06-19-2012, 06:06 PM   #9
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My wife's 2009 Acadia, with the LLT engine, had the timing chains replace TWICE in 80,000 miles! Some dealerships have guys that do nothing but replace timing chains all day long...
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Old 06-19-2012, 06:16 PM   #10
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Interesting tip about the oil. I remember putting the car through it's paces to seal the gaskets, etc. and then going to Amsoil Signature series full synth at 650 miles. Since then I've switched between that and Mobil 1. Interesting to know what oil was being used in the cars with timing chain problems.. now i've got 28k on her and running strong
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Old 06-19-2012, 08:25 PM   #11
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I have over 115,000 miles and run synthetic oil. Now if Mace would cut me a deal on some cams so that I may do some dyno runs
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Old 06-19-2012, 08:29 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkchambless View Post
So awhile back (10,000 miles or so) my 1LT started preforming very poorly; very sluggish, almost no torque. I didn't get a CEL at that time but when I took it into the dealer they said that they just needed to do a update to the ECU and everything was fine when I drove away.

Now to the present (58,000 miles): My car started doing the same thing except this time I did have CEL and the equipment necessary to check the code. Two codes showed up - P0008 and P0009 which translated to:

P0008 Engine Positions System Performance Bank 1
P0009 Engine Position System Performance Bank 2

Note that once I cleared the code, the car behaved normally again.

A little research led me to multiple forums including Cadillac CTX forums where owners where discussing a known issue with the LLT engine where there is premature stretching of the timing chains and in some cases the chains broke and wrecked the engine. Apparently the ECU update was nothing more than changing the sensitivity of the monitoring of the engine....didn't fix anything, just made it ignore minor variances.

I immediately called my dealer and made and appointment to take in the car and guess what; they are replacing the timing chains as I write this and I will hopefully get the care back tomorrow. And it is all under warranty which is great because some estimate it is about a $2500.00 job.

Yeh..I heard of this issue. Some damaged there engines already on this site. The problem I am hearing is the chain was redesigned when they put the 3.6 in the caddy. The chain links were made smaller because they were more quiet and for the caddy thats what you want, but down the road they found the smaller chain was really not tuff enuff and would stretch. The design was already in place so the whole design wasl already slated for the camaro and other cars. GM probably found it more cost effective to just replace under warranty as needed instead of redesigning back to the old chain, sprockets gears etc. My question to you is are they just replacing the chain with the same or are they going with different new improved one. I heard rumors that the chain has somehow been strengthened but dont know if its any truth to it.
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Old 06-19-2012, 08:34 PM   #13
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I use Pennzoil full synthetic in mine...gotta be cautious from now on, I guess.
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Old 06-19-2012, 08:37 PM   #14
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I read that the later LLT has different chains.
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Old 06-20-2012, 06:58 AM   #15
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35k miles when done. I bought the car with 21k miles. Since I've owned it I only use Mobil 1 Full Synth.
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:05 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PieNsky View Post
I read that the later LLT has different chains.
My inside guy, who warned me about the timing chains well before the wife's chains went out, that the chain problem was not addresses until the 2013 model year...

That being said, I think the Camaro guys probably change their oil a lot more regularly than the soccer mom driving Acadias, Traverses, etc. And they are probably more likely to just put cheap oil in... i know that was my wife... only changed the oil when the ECU told here and did the $14 oil change at the dealership...
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:06 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shrinkdoc View Post
Yeh..I heard of this issue. Some damaged there engines already on this site. The problem I am hearing is the chain was redesigned when they put the 3.6 in the caddy. The chain links were made smaller because they were more quiet and for the caddy thats what you want, but down the road they found the smaller chain was really not tuff enuff and would stretch. The design was already in place so the whole design wasl already slated for the camaro and other cars. GM probably found it more cost effective to just replace under warranty as needed instead of redesigning back to the old chain, sprockets gears etc. My question to you is are they just replacing the chain with the same or are they going with different new improved one. I heard rumors that the chain has somehow been strengthened but dont know if its any truth to it.
Well.. wife's went out at 32,000 miles and then again at 80,000 mile...
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:10 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrming View Post
My inside guy, who warned me about the timing chains well before the wife's chains went out, that the chain problem was not addresses until the 2013 model year...

That being said, I think the Camaro guys probably change their oil a lot more regularly than the soccer mom driving Acadias, Traverses, etc. And they are probably more likely to just put cheap oil in... i know that was my wife... only changed the oil when the ECU told here and did the $14 oil change at the dealership...
This is why I preach to all V6 owners to use only 100% synthetic and change at no more then 5K miles.

I happen to prefer Mobil 1 and change every 4K miles.
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:17 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyrfan View Post
This is why I preach to all V6 owners to use only 100% synthetic and change at no more then 5K miles.

I happen to prefer Mobil 1 and change every 4K miles.

Amen!!! Just use Mobile 1 Full Synth... and hope for the best.
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Old 06-20-2012, 01:12 PM   #20
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I went for about 9k on Amsoil signature series but won't ever let it run that long. it's rated 25k or 1 year which to me sounds crazy.
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Old 06-20-2012, 09:36 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
I want to add......do NOT run syn blend DEXO Ignore the dealer/owners manual andS!!!!! ONLY run full syn to avoid this.

Cadillac LLT's run synthetic.
The CTS filler cap is marked Mobil 1 and they still had timing chain issues which makes this a design issue that G M hung us out to dry on.
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Old 06-20-2012, 10:39 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy@AMSOIL View Post
Mobil 1 is still a syn blend, meaning that it still contains some forms of petroleum based oil. Not to mention the issue where anti wear additives have been reduced drastically in some of their oils, their EP series I guess is ok.

Here is some good data to help anyone.


*
Brand************* ***** VI** Flash Pour %ash* %zinc
10W-30
*
AMSOIL************** *** 171* 464** -54* <.05** ---
AMSOIL XL-7500*** *** 148* 471** -54* <.05** ---
Castrol GTX******** * *** 140* 415** -33* .85** .12
Castrol Syntec**** ***** 157* 455** -54* ---** .10
Chevron Supreme***** *** 150* 401** -26* .96** .11
Exxon Superflo Hi * 135* 392** -22* .70** .11
Exxon Superflo Supreme* 133* 400** -31* .85** .13
Havoline Formula 3**** * 139* 430** -30* 1.0** ---
Kendall GT-1******** *** 139* 390** -25* 1.0** .16
Mobil 1*********** ***** ---* 430** -60* ---** ---
Mobil 1 Super Syn.(NEW) 145 455 -49 --- --- **
Pennzoil PLZ Turbo**** * 140* 410** -27* 1.0** ---
Quaker State******** *** 156* 410** -30* .90** ---
Quaker State Prem Syn 148 440 -40 --- --- **
Red Line************ *** 150* 475** -40* ---** ---
Royal Purple 148 400 -49 --- --- **
Shell Fire and Ice* * *** 155* 410** -35* .90** .12
Shell Super 2000***** ** 155* 410** -35* 1.0** .13
Shell Truck Guard** **** 155* 405** -35* 1.0** .15
Spectro Golden M.G.**** 175* 405** -40* ---** ---
Unocal Super********* ** 153* 428** -33* .92** .12
Valvoline All Climate** 130* 410** -26* 1.0** .11
Valvoline Turbo****** ** 135* 410** -26* .99** .13
Valvoline Race****** *** 130* 410** -26* 1.2** .20
Valvoline Synthetic** ** 140* 450** -40* <1.5* .12

No idea what this data really means to me.
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Old 06-20-2012, 11:03 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PieNsky View Post
I have over 115,000 miles and run synthetic oil. Now if Mace would cut me a deal on some cams so that I may do some dyno runs
Good lord that's alot of miles!

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Old 06-21-2012, 07:14 AM   #24
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this problem has me spooked a little. what's the cheapest this would cost optimistically if you gave the dealer hell? $2500 sounds insane.
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Old 06-21-2012, 07:30 AM   #25
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Quote:
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No idea what this data really means to me.
It menas you can buy Mobil 1 for a fraction of the cost of Amsoil, continue to change at 5K miles and be just fine! Becasue even with Amsoil and the known LLT engine problems I still would not exceed 5K miles
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