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Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons Bolt-Ons | Intakes | Exhaust

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Old 06-21-2012, 04:31 PM   #1
FastRaceCars
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2010 Camaro 1SS LS3 M6 won't spin tires

Currently, I have a RotoFab CAI, skipshift-eliminator, Magnaflow Axle-Back Competition (aka muffler delete), 160 thermostat, and self-tuned with HPTuners. Car is 2010 Camaro 1SS with 6-speed manual. Even before any of the mods, I always felt like the car was a little weak for 420+ HP, but at the same time, it does seem to get up and go pretty well, so I had assumed it was normal for a 3800lb car.

I'm not an expert tuner, but I did read a bunch on several forums and hptuners website. I did some basic changes like improving PE rate, delay, and AFRs. Experimented with high octane table ignition timing advance. What I discovered is that I can't go much over 20 degrees at WOT above 4000 RPM without "knock retard" pulling a little timing back out. As a drag racer running small block chevy engines, we always run around 38-40 degrees, so 20 degrees on a 11:1 motor seems ridiculously low to me. In fact, even with the factory tune settings, I see the knock retard sometimes kicking in a degree or so. That being said, I had tried adding fuel in those areas to confirm it was false knock. (BTW, I run 93/94 octane and tried adding AMSOIL Octane Boost as well). At this point, I'm pretty convinced it is false knock and the knock sensors are too sensitive. I've also increased the knock decay rate so that when the knock stops, the timing will climb back up a little quicker.

I can't remember at the moment if I disabled the engine torque management completely or not, but this car will barely break traction in 1st gear on dry roads with or without traction control/stability control. Obviously, I can drop the clutch at 3500+ rpm and make it spin, but after reading a bunch on the forum today, it seems I should be able to simply roll into the throttle in 1st gear and spin pretty easily. Even my old 1996 V6 Camaro would almost do that.

I was reading about the "fuse pull" trick today, but since I have HPTuners, I'm not sure if this still applies since I can reflash the computer at will. It does seem to have the rough idle behavior that others mentioned. My fuel economy averages 18MPG, which is mostly 20-50mph driving. On highway, I still only see about 21-22.

Anyone have any thoughts? I tried to read the forum all day, but I'm sure I've missed some valuable threads/posts.
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Old 06-21-2012, 05:15 PM   #2
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Big 20" rims with sticky tires won't really let you roast the tires from a roll. On a side note the knock sensors are very sensitive but they are there for good reason. Just make sure you take out the torque management and turn of the nanny controls. You've got the right idea turning back the knock decay....shouldn't have to try and fuse pull. If you really wanna light em up easy toss a Whipple on it. LOL
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Old 06-21-2012, 05:54 PM   #3
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If you decide to stay N/A, You'll want rear end gears...4.11 or 4.33...This car's gear ratio is too high (3.45 stock) and hinders low end torque terribly.
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:04 PM   #4
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Well....I checked my tune a little bit ago, and disabled "Power Hop" under the TCS settings thinking maybe this was the culprit. I had in fact already maxxed out the EngineTorque Management settings. I also compared my high octane timing table to the factory tune, and I actually had to remove 1-3 degrees of timing at WOT above 4400 RPM to prevent any knock retard from occuring. I currently have the AFR for PE mode leaned out from the factory tune, because it was like 11:1 AFR. It is now around 12.2:1-12.5:1 and kicks in above 2500 RPM. I've seen a lot of guys on here and hptuners say that 13:1 makes the most power, but I wanted to stay a little richer until I was 100% certain about the knock retard issue.

I agree those p-zero's are some sticky tires and 20" blades are a little harder to turn over, but everyone else on the forum claims to be able to lay down rubber without dropping the clutch. The gears are pretty tall for a heavy sports car...should have shipped from the factory with 3.73 in any SS trim.

Nonetheless...maybe I have my expectations too high after reading some of the other posts. Any other ideas are still appreciated. I'm also attaching my torque management settings screenshot.
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:25 PM   #5
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You say with or without traction control. The whole point of it is to not let you lose traction . Hold the button down and turn all the nannies off or of course you'll be disappointed. Headers had me break loose faster but not the intake.
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:39 PM   #6
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My gxp has factory 3.7s from the factory and although I agree the SS should too but its no better in the spin department.
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Old 06-21-2012, 10:33 PM   #7
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my V6 A6 was able to spin 275/40 20's wrapped in nitto invo's without hesitation or TC off. haven't really "tried" to do it now that im in a V8, but it happened the other night without hesitation on the P-zero's. just had my tune done via HPT and was able to get about 21-23* of timing...not much more and saw 0 knock. the stock tune was pulling 1 degree on the high end before the tune and after 0 (without touching knock sensors).
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Old 06-22-2012, 01:27 AM   #8
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Its you tune....hombreito.

I have a "less powerful" L99 tuned and with Traction control on it'll spin the tires in first and second now......its like there's a beast within.

Tqmgmt will retard your timing and your car will feel retarded as well.

I turned most of it off.....but folded some back in under part throttle cuz it was snapping my head off!Whoa!

But you have a 6sp.....so its all about timing.

From your screen print, Disable Tqmgmt via Spark and fuel cut and get ready for second gear action.

Tampa tuning can provide a good HP baseline and give pretty good feedback on the data logs......saves booqoo time.....the config file on my car is flipping 5Meg......nobody can learn that in a vaccuum.
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Old 06-22-2012, 07:57 AM   #9
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With those mods yes rolling down the street and punching the gas should result in some tire spin without a clutch dump, add a cam and first gear is useless on the street!
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Old 06-22-2012, 08:18 AM   #10
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With those mods yes rolling down the street and punching the gas should result in some tire spin without a clutch dump, add a cam and first gear is useless on the street!

It's funny how people want to spin their tires (I get it all the time from stock L99 owners).
Then once they get a little more modded, they'll be buying new wheels and drag radials to control excessive wheel spin on the street.

If your spinning, you aint winning.
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Old 06-22-2012, 12:37 PM   #11
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Its not about WANTING to spin the tires, its a concern if he is down some power! If everyone you knew with the same car as yours can smoke the tires at will... and your hooks, its not because your suspension and tires are any better if are all running the same stuff. I would wonder as well!
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Old 06-22-2012, 12:52 PM   #12
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spinning tires depends alot on the road you r on and the pavement too! around here, sometimes it get loose easy, others not so much...go to vegas - i have no idea whats up with their pavement, but you need to be paying attention because its everywhere but straight when you get into it.
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Old 06-22-2012, 01:06 PM   #13
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Just talked to a buddy at work that has a m6 ss and his is the same as my gxp. Hooks up and doesn't spin and it has a tune and muffler delete.
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Old 06-22-2012, 01:26 PM   #14
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Did you turn off stabillitrac? Hold tc button for 8 seconds
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Old 06-22-2012, 07:53 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by FastRaceCars View Post
Nonetheless...maybe I have my expectations too high after reading some of the other posts. Any other ideas are still appreciated. I'm also attaching my torque management settings screenshot.
I suspect that might be true. There seems to be a vast difference in the performance reported on forums for this car.

Even with the cam and headers mine will not spin when moving without using the clutch. It put down 426 hp on a Dyno Dynamics dyno that is known to be stingy and feels A LOT faster than when it was new, but those tires stick like glue. I've been told the P-Zero's get even stickier when it is over about 80 degrees. Perhaps that's true, but there a lot of folks here that report that their cars are almost uncontrollable with the nannies off, spinning through 1st and 2nd.

And no, I don't just want to wear out my tires. I'd like to know it has that much power.

Good luck with this and if you find the solution, please post it in this thread. I'll be hoping to hear something.
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Old 06-22-2012, 08:17 PM   #16
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Since you are a drag racer, consider a trip to the track to see what kind of power your car is making.
Then you will know for sure.
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Old 06-22-2012, 08:43 PM   #17
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Perhaps that's true, but there a lot of folks here that report that their cars are almost uncontrollable with the nannies off, spinning through 1st and 2nd.
Probably the same ones that say turning the nannies off around town is signing your own death warrant. Guess I should have bought a lottery ticket the days I drove all those muscle cars before they had nannies.
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Old 06-23-2012, 11:26 PM   #18
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I've been playing with my tune and some other settings this weekend. Thanks Aaron for sharing your tune. It gave me a couple new ideas to experiment with. I had to attend a wedding in central PA this weekend, so I've been playing a little on some country roads which I am pretty sure are not "sticky". With Traction Control and Stability Control Off, I still can't really spin a tire going in a straight line from a rolling start unless the road is oily or dirty. The groom of the wedding has an Audi A4 AWD with an aftermarket chip in it, and while following him, it was actually a bit challenging to keep up. Of course, I couldn't always tell when he was gonna to go fast, so my reaction time was putting me at a significant disadvantage.

My tires have about 6700 miles on them from the factory now, and still look like new. The car feels to me like it pulls pretty strong...especially from about 3500 rpm and up, but I still can't help but wonder if I'm down on power and just don't know it. I'd like to have it dyno'd or go to the drag strip, but neither of those are close to where I live, and if I go to the drag strip...I'll be towing my dragster.

I'll keep experimenting with the tune for now, and see if I can make any more headway. If anyone else has a good tune for car with similar mods, I'd love to see it for comparison as I could certainly be doing something wrong. Also, what AFR you guys running during PE? I read a couple different threads and it seems to range from 12.x up to 13:1 for peak power, and factory is like 11.x:1.
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Old 06-23-2012, 11:53 PM   #19
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Makes sence since the LS3 doesnt really come on the powerband until 3500rpm. The engine is a touch lazy below that point and once you get into the meat of the power your already rolling at a good speed.
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Old 06-23-2012, 11:57 PM   #20
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Since you are a drag racer, consider a trip to the track to see what kind of power your car is making.
Then you will know for sure.


I too originally thought the car was a bit weak in the burnout department. Once i hit the track those complaints left. I may not be able to really light them up like days of old. But, i can sure hook and launch unlike the days of old.

My 1973 Firebird Formula 400 could just roast the tires off all day long with a huge cloud of rolling smoke. My 2011 would lay waste to that old bird in the 1320'
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Old 06-24-2012, 01:44 AM   #21
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I've been playing with my tune and some other settings this weekend.
You have HP....
Do you data log your car?
You can monitor your throttle position, RPMs, Timing, Knock, and TQdelivered (and 800 other things)

My car is stock (L99) conservative engine tune......for 91 octane.
at about 4800RPMs my delivered TQ is 380lbs consistenly with no knock retard.

What is yours?
It should be higher than mine if your tune is working.

That will tell you if you are making progress with your tune or not.

For example, if you let the clutch out and go WOT the data log will tell you what kind of power you are making and if the the computer is pulling timing and why.

The TQMgmt in the computer is just that....it manages the delivered torque from the engine....based on the configs in the computer. It can and will slow the car down.....at 1500 rpms or 6800rpms.

I allow a little TQmgmt function in "auto" mode (=healthy chip into 2nd at 30% throttle), but in Tap-shift mode its all OFF.....and it shifts like an F1 car.

I was initally on the fence with the auto and also thought I needed to gear up.
But now after refining the tune on TQMgmt and the transmission, I really like the auto (would not go back) and have no need for higher gears.

Just a thought.....the ZL1s must be massively detuned to not spin those tires off through 3rd gear. I have to get my hands on an auto one of those.
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Old 06-24-2012, 12:39 PM   #22
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Nothing against your tuning ability but I would leave that to the pros. I had Ted Jannetty do all my tuning remotely and it has been simply amazing. From stock, I added Roto-Fab CAI, LT headers, HF cats and Teds tune that worked over the engine and trans tune and made the car a totally different beast.
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Old 06-24-2012, 12:52 PM   #23
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spun mine for the first time yesterday, with all the dials "off" and at about 2.5K rpm in 1st gear.....
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Old 06-24-2012, 01:03 PM   #24
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I roasted my tires almost clean off with my stock LS3 6M no problem. Turn off TC.
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Old 06-24-2012, 01:15 PM   #25
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Should have gotten the V-10
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