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Old 06-29-2012, 03:24 PM   #511
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Originally Posted by GoldenBear View Post
What some Ford fans appear to do when they post on Camaro5 is use straw man arguments by mis-characterizing statements that have been made.

Ford fans have made comments such as, "Everyone here said that the GT500 wouldn't beat the ZL1 on a road course." In reality the type of comments that were actually stated were something such as "the ZL1 will likely perform better on road courses than the GT500 will," or the "ZL1 is a better road course car, in general, than the GT500 is."

What some Ford fans appear to fail to understand is that stating that the ZL1 is a better road course car than the GT500 is not the same thing as stating that the GT500 will not be faster on a road course than the ZL1.

Also, many Ford fans appear to have the need to post on Camaro5 their belief that the ZL1 is an inferior vehicle to the GT500, mainly it appears due to the fact that the GT500 is faster in a straight line. Again, what they appear to fail to understand is that to many straight line acceleration is not the only metric used to evaluate today's high performance vehicles. The ability to comfortably navigate, with spirit, public roads, such as Highway 1 between Carmel and Big Sur or Sunset Blvd between Benedict Canyon Drive and the Pacific Coast Highway, is more important and more useful to many than straight line acceleration is.

As many have stated, the GT500 is a fine car, and the right choice for many. However, to many on Camaro5 the ZL1 is the better vehicle and right choice for them.

I simply don't see the reason for some to denigrate a vehicle, such as the ZL1, unless one has some insecurity issues of one's own that are causing such behavior.
i'm gonna call it like i see it, you are backpedaling hard and playing semantics. your bolded statement is the biggest load of bullshit i've ever read. in a sentance such as "the zl1 will be a better road coarse car," it is implied that the zl1 will be faster, unless your idea of a road coarse is one with no clock. if someone said "the gt500 will be the better drag car," would it be presumptious to say that the gt500 will be faster in the 1/4? only an idiot would see any other meaning in that sentance than "the gt500 will be faster". do you see what i'm saying?

talk about insecurity issues. you are trying your hardest to justify what you see as a failure in the ZL1. it's kind of obvious. instead of seeing it as a failure, why not just look at it as the greatest camaro ever produced? there's nothing to justify there, because it's fact.

hell, i just quoted a guy that said the zl1 would smoke the gt500 on the 'ring. he didn't say it would likely do better, he didn't say it would probably pull on the gt500 in the turns, he didn't say anything like that. he straight up said the gt500 will be slaughtered on the nurburgring. it's because of guys like that that you feel you have to back pedal and elaborate on the true meanings of their statements.
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:36 PM   #512
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i'm gonna call it like i see it, you are backpedaling hard and playing semantics. your bolded statement is the biggest load of bullshit i've ever read. in a sentance such as "the zl1 will be a better road coarse car," it is implied that the zl1 will be faster, unless your idea of a road coarse is one with no clock. if someone said "the gt500 will be the better drag car," would it be presumptious to say that the gt500 will be faster in the 1/4? only an idiot would see any other meaning in that sentance than "the gt500 will be faster". do you see what i'm saying?

talk about insecurity issues. you are trying your hardest to justify what you see as a failure in the ZL1. it's kind of obvious. instead of seeing it as a failure, why not just look at it as the greatest camaro ever produced? there's nothing to justify there, because it's fact.

hell, i just quoted a guy that said the zl1 would smoke the gt500 on the 'ring. he didn't say it would likely do better, he didn't say it would probably pull on the gt500 in the turns, he didn't say anything like that. he straight up said the gt500 will be slaughtered on the nurburgring. it's because of guys like that that you feel you have to back pedal and elaborate on the true meanings of their statements.
Listen I understand SVT land is bitter after loosing all 4 of the overall results in the reviews thus far. If the Camaro had lost 4 in a row I am sure there would be bitterness here too. , don't be too hard on the 500 though it is indeed fast!
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:37 PM   #513
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I'm still waiting for the 2012 ZL1 vs 2012 GT500 comparo. In that matchup, the ZL wins every category.
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:39 PM   #514
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I'm still waiting for the 2012 ZL1 vs 2012 GT500 comparo. In that matchup, the ZL wins every category.
I see the point, but what, do tell, is the performance difference between a 2012 ZL1 and 2013 ZL1?
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:45 PM   #515
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I see the point, but what, do tell, is the performance difference between a 2012 ZL1 and 2013 ZL1?
there is none, therefore there is no point. Seriously guys - stop making these arguments, it makes the Mustang guys think you're stupid.

When was the 2012 ZL1 released? 2012. When was the 2013 GT500 released? 2012. Now be quiet and find some arguments with merit.
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:50 PM   #516
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Again, they compare a production car right off the assembly line"ZL1" against an aftermaket "Shelby"...apples to oranges. Why not compare the shelby with a, let's say a "Lingenfelder" ZL1! The ZL1 is close to 500lbs heavier, and has almost 100 less horsepower. The weight difference is good for a half second alone in the quarter! Did the writer ever once mention any of these facts? What a load of crap!...Even after all that was stacked against it i'd say the Camaro is still twice the car.
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:52 PM   #517
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Originally Posted by GoldenBear View Post
What some Ford fans appear to do when they post on Camaro5 is use straw man arguments by mis-characterizing statements that have been made.

Ford fans have made comments such as, "Everyone here said that the GT500 wouldn't beat the ZL1 on a road course." In reality the type of comments that were actually stated were something such as "the ZL1 will likely perform better on road courses than the GT500 will," or the "ZL1 is a better road course car, in general, than the GT500 is."

What some Ford fans appear to fail to understand is that stating that the ZL1 is a better road course car than the GT500 is not the same thing as stating that the GT500 will not be faster on a road course than the ZL1.

Also, many Ford fans appear to have the need to post on Camaro5 their belief that the ZL1 is an inferior vehicle to the GT500, mainly it appears due to the fact that the GT500 is faster in a straight line. Again, what they appear to fail to understand is that to many straight line acceleration is not the only metric used to evaluate today's high performance vehicles. The ability to comfortably navigate, with spirit, public roads, such as Highway 1 between Carmel and Big Sur or Sunset Blvd between Benedict Canyon Drive and the Pacific Coast Highway, is more important and more useful to many than straight line acceleration is.

As many have stated, the GT500 is a fine car, and the right choice for many. However, to many on Camaro5 the ZL1 is the better vehicle and right choice for them.

I simply don't see the reason for some to denigrate a vehicle, such as the ZL1, unless one has some insecurity issues of one's own that are causing such behavior.
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:52 PM   #518
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Listen I understand SVT land is bitter after loosing all 4 of the overall results in the reviews thus far. If the Camaro had lost 4 in a row I am sure there would be bitterness here too. , don't be too hard on the 500 though it is indeed fast!
i hate svtp for the record. it just bugs me to see guys like that make these ridiculous arguments. it really only does one thing, which is, give the mustang guys something to laugh at.

making ridiculous caveats like "nobody said the zl1 would be faster on every lap or every track" is no better than saying "oh they should compare the hennessy to the shelby" or "they should compare the same model year". it's doing nothing for the camaro community.
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:54 PM   #519
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What some Ford fans appear to fail to understand is that stating that the ZL1 is a better road course car than the GT500 is not the same thing as stating that the GT500 will not be faster on a road course than the ZL1.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 101fng View Post
your bolded statement is the biggest load of bullshit i've ever read. in a sentance such as "the zl1 will be a better road coarse car," it is implied that the zl1 will be faster, unless your idea of a road coarse is one with no clock.
If I am correct in concluding that you are a Ford fan, you just proved my point.

Do you understand that the fact that the GT500 may be able to run a lap or two quicker than the ZL1 on a specific road course here and there, is not incompatible with the fact that overall, on the majority of road courses and over a majority of laps, it will be easier to consistently obtain faster laps with the ZL1 rather than the GT500, and thus making the ZL1 a better road car?
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:54 PM   #520
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Originally Posted by 101fng View Post
i'm gonna call it like i see it, you are backpedaling hard and playing semantics. your bolded statement is the biggest load of bullshit i've ever read. in a sentance such as "the zl1 will be a better road coarse car," it is implied that the zl1 will be faster, unless your idea of a road coarse is one with no clock. if someone said "the gt500 will be the better drag car," would it be presumptious to say that the gt500 will be faster in the 1/4? only an idiot would see any other meaning in that sentance than "the gt500 will be faster". do you see what i'm saying?

talk about insecurity issues. you are trying your hardest to justify what you see as a failure in the ZL1. it's kind of obvious. instead of seeing it as a failure, why not just look at it as the greatest camaro ever produced? there's nothing to justify there, because it's fact.

hell, i just quoted a guy that said the zl1 would smoke the gt500 on the 'ring. he didn't say it would likely do better, he didn't say it would probably pull on the gt500 in the turns, he didn't say anything like that. he straight up said the gt500 will be slaughtered on the nurburgring. it's because of guys like that that you feel you have to back pedal and elaborate on the true meanings of their statements.
FAIL
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:56 PM   #521
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I assume your point is that the GT500 has been shown to be faster at the drag strip and on the road course even though the speculation was that the ZL1 would be faster on roadcourse due to superior handling and braking. We're on page 21 of this topic and everyone already knows this. So please explain what your getting at by being a child and trying to stir $#!t up.
lol, yep. +1 man.
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:58 PM   #522
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there is none, therefore there is no point. Seriously guys - stop making these arguments, it makes the Mustang guys think you're stupid.

When was the 2012 ZL1 released? 2012. When was the 2013 GT500 released? 2012. Now be quiet and find some arguments with merit.
Im sure H.Wiki knows this. He was pointing out the obvious
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Old 06-29-2012, 03:59 PM   #523
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What some Ford fans appear to do when they post on Camaro5 is use straw man arguments by mis-characterizing statements that have been made.

Ford fans have made comments such as, "Everyone here said that the GT500 wouldn't beat the ZL1 on a road course." In reality the type of comments that were actually stated were something such as "the ZL1 will likely perform better on road courses than the GT500 will," or the "ZL1 is a better road course car, in general, than the GT500 is."
HORDES of people said there was no way the gt500 would keep up on a road course. I specifically recall a long debate about whether or not the 2013 gt500 would even be able to best the Boss on a road course, which inferred the zl1 would put a smack down on the gt500 on any road course. In fact, a certain vendor said the 2013 gt500 wasn't going to be much faster than the 2012 model, if at all. This debate has gotten tired and repetitive, but to say such statements weren't made is just inaccurate and BEGGING for more flame wars.
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Old 06-29-2012, 04:02 PM   #524
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HORDES of people said there was no way the gt500 would keep up on a road course. I specifically recall a long debate about whether or not the 2013 gt500 would even be able to best the Boss on a road course, which inferred the zl1 would put a smack down on the gt500 on any road course. In fact, a certain vendor said the 2013 gt500 wasn't going to be much faster than the 2012 model, if at all. This debate has gotten tired and repetitive, but to say such statements weren't made is just inaccurate and BEGGING for more flame wars.
Please post the link where it was stated that the GT500 would never be faster than the ZL1 on any lap on any road course.
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Old 06-29-2012, 04:04 PM   #525
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Look,we all know Ford waited for the performance anouncement of the ZL1 before rushing the "2013" Shelby out in 2012 so Ford could hope to pull some of the ZL1 buyers away from Chevy,....Camaro faithful be patient,G.M. WILL have answer to the Shelby,
anyway as i see it,they are both great high performing cars,it a matter of preference,Ford faithful are gonna buy a mustang,and Chevy faithful are goona buy a Camaro,no matter who wins what,but for me it is and would be a Camaro,they simply look better and ride better(to me)which is all that matters,
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Old 06-29-2012, 04:06 PM   #526
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i hate svtp for the record. it just bugs me to see guys like that make these ridiculous arguments. it really only does one thing, which is, give the mustang guys something to laugh at.

making ridiculous caveats like "nobody said the zl1 would be faster on every lap or every track" is no better than saying "oh they should compare the hennessy to the shelby" or "they should compare the same model year". it's doing nothing for the camaro community.
What he said was completely true. The ZL1 is a better track car.

Drag racing and performance driving are two completely different things. One is all about the time, the other isn't. The GT500 clearly wasn't made for road courses. Every reviewer has complained about how much the chassis pushes in the corners and how you have to use power oversteer just to get it to rotate well through the hard corners.

Let it go.

The ZL1 was designed to be track-ready from the showroom floor and it delivered on that. The GT500 is a 660 hp beast that has incredible acceleration at its price point. There's something for everybody.
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Old 06-29-2012, 04:07 PM   #527
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Please post the link where it was stated that the GT500 would never be faster than the ZL1 on any lap on any road course.
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128453

Al Oppenheiser:
I fully expect the competition to be in our Rear view mirror! I feel that to push the Camaro performance and technology to the limits is right and necessary, because at GM we don't just want to compete, we want to Win!
Wednesday February 9, 2011 3:09 Al Oppenheiser
3:09


Unless you don't consider the GT500 competition.




http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=16

"Sorry, Rez....but this is one of my least favorite threads in this section so far...bold claims to make with absolutely no ammunition...

You think they tested against the GT500 and put all this work into the ZL1 just to be "close" to the GT500? Noooooo.....expect it to be a very very sad snake..."
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