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Old 06-27-2012, 11:41 AM   #76
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If these cars could talk this would be the conversation.

ZL1: Anything you can do I can do better
... I can do anything better than you
GT500: No, you can't
ZL1: Yes, I can
GT500: No, you can't
ZL1: Yes, I can
GT500: No, you can't
ZL1: Yes, I can, yes, I can

GT500: Anything you can be I can be greater
... Sooner or later I'm greater than you
ZL1: No, you're not
GT500: Yes, I am
ZL1: No, you're not
GT500: Yes, I am
ZL1: No, you're not
GT500: Yes, I am, yes I am
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:49 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A-little-perspective View Post
If these cars could talk this would be the conversation.

ZL1: Anything you can do I can do better
... I can do anything better than you
GT500: No, you can't
ZL1: Yes, I can
GT500: No, you can't
ZL1: Yes, I can
GT500: No, you can't
ZL1: Yes, I can, yes, I can

GT500: Anything you can be I can be greater
... Sooner or later I'm greater than you
ZL1: No, you're not
GT500: Yes, I am
ZL1: No, you're not
GT500: Yes, I am
ZL1: No, you're not
GT500: Yes, I am, yes I am
LMAO!
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:51 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by 69NMYSS View Post
30% is reasonable

Testing a $200k car against a $210k car is reasonable


The point is that's what's practiced around the world - I'm just telling you how it is. The fact that you don't think it's reasonable is irrelevant because the world doesn't care about your opinion when it makes its comparisons.
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Old 06-27-2012, 11:59 AM   #79
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The GT500 excelled in both the straight-line speed test and the road course. Ford was determined to compete in this class, and IMO they have done a remarkable job with the GT500. Preference is one thing, but the actual numbers show the strengths and weaknesses of the competing cars.

I wonder what Chevy is planning for a rebuttal?
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Old 06-27-2012, 12:01 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Cosby View Post
And finally, one could argue that the chart is being mostly ignored because the numbers aren't what the majority of this audience wishes to see.
As I stated in another thread I think the chart is mostly being ignored because the chart emphasizes what people already know, as it has 11 effectively repetitive straight line acceleration comparisons.

A chart that displays the results of essentially redundant straight line acceleration comparisons 11 different times is not noteworthy, as people already knew that the GT500 is faster in straight line acceleration, and the fact that the GT500 is faster than the ZL1 in straight line acceleration is simply not news that needs comment.
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Old 06-27-2012, 12:03 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by lbls1 View Post
I wonder what Chevy is planning for a rebuttal?
There is no need for a rebuttal from Chevrolet as most reviews so far have concluded that the ZL1 is the better overall vehicle.
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Old 06-27-2012, 12:04 PM   #82
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I'd still prefer a straight line car than a corner carver anyday. I'd rather have the advantage where I can use it anywhere on any road where 99% of driving will take place, rather than making excuses, "Well if we were at the Autocross..." . GT500 in my book, it's faster and more powerful.

If I wanted a corner carver I'd build a kickass 240 for half the money and smoke both cars on the track.
I'd prefer the car that is more comfortable where it will spend more than 99% of it's time for most, the street. And still have a blast at the drag strip or road course.

If I wanted a straight line car I'd build a kickass drag car for less than a 1/3 of the money and smoke both of them at the track. Just sayin..

Didn't buy the car to win trophies, I bought the car to have fun while maintaining comfort where it matters most.
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Old 06-27-2012, 12:36 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Cosby View Post
One could make a pretty good arguement that numbers ARE reality, I think. One could also make a good arguement that there is more to comparing a couple of cars than those numbers, which I'm sure is your take - and a quite valid one indeed.

And finally, one could argue that the chart is being mostly ignored because the numbers aren't what the majority of this audience wishes to see.
so as those numbers decline lap by lap that is reality still? I was hoping the 2013 would not have these issues.

as you oil temps rise, brakes fade, etc that is better on the track?

reality does not car about time in a magazine. when you are coming into a corner you have good brake pedal or you don't.

that is the differnt between the internet and reality. you keyboard never has brake fade, oil temp, water temp, etc.

if I want a car for a track day I like the car that actaully will do better that day. does not have to be the fastest.

of all the amercian cars tested the ZL1 is one of the few that does not seem to exibit bad behaviors during a review on the track. with the exeption of Z06 Z07, Zr1 but they usually get reviewed as being harsh at the limit and they are.
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Old 06-27-2012, 12:50 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by GoldenBear View Post
As I stated in another thread I think the chart is mostly being ignored because the chart emphasizes what people already know, as it has 11 effectively repetitive straight line acceleration comparisons.

A chart that displays the results of essentially redundant straight line acceleration comparisons 11 different times is not noteworthy, as people already knew that the GT500 is faster in straight line acceleration, and the fact that the GT500 is faster than the ZL1 in straight line acceleration is simply not news that needs comment.
Ok. For the sake of discussion, and because its very slow here today, I combined all the acceleration stuff (and top speed) into "acceleration", and came up with this (just as useless, but fun) little matrix. It shows "wins" for each category based on the 4 magazine's results:

Acceleration:
GT500 = 4
ZL1 = 0
Not reported = 0
Most "wins" = GT500

Braking:
GT500 = 2
ZL1 = 1
Not reported = 1
Most "wins" = GT500

Skidpad:
GT500 = 1
ZL1 = 1
Not reported = 2
Most "wins" = Tie

Slalom:
GT500 = 1
ZL1 = 2
Not reported = 1
Most "wins" = ZL1

Road Course:
GT500 = 2
ZL1 = 1
Tie = 1
Most "wins" = GT500

Broken down that way, in raw numbers, you end up with the following:
GT500 wins 3 (Accel, braking, Road course)
ZL1 wins 1
Cars "tie" on 1 (skidpad)

Final results = 3-1-1

I leave off gas mileage because its not a performance metric in the same sense as those above, and most folks don't buy these cars for mileage (though it is something I always consider...regardless of what kind of vehicle I'm purchasing).

Of course, those things that can't be measured include ride comfort, level of ability needed to obtain x or y numbers, and what is often called the "feel" of the car. Other things that are often ignored include visibility, available options , how well a car is equipped in base trim, cost of ownership, mpg, warranty, etc.

Let us not forget personal preference on looks and brand loyalty (abundant on BOTH sides...in spades)

As always, we draw our own conclusions.
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Old 06-27-2012, 12:58 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by hognutz View Post
so as those numbers decline lap by lap that is reality still? I was hoping the 2013 would not have these issues.
Yes it is, and it could be a consideration for some - no doubt about it.

Quote:
as you oil temps rise, brakes fade, etc that is better on the track?
Of course not. How do we qualify that in an objective manner? Do we have an majority of sources reporting such, or just one here and there?

And who in their right mind is going to "track" either of these cars without changing the brake fluid, pads, tires, etc? EITHER ONE. Sure, to take it out every now again...both could probably do that, and the ZL1 would probably be more confidence inspiring - little doubt about that.

Quote:
reality does not car about time in a magazine. when you are coming into a corner you have good brake pedal or you don't.
No arguement there.

Quote:
that is the differnt between the internet and reality. you keyboard never has brake fade, oil temp, water temp, etc.
Neither does yours.

BTW....I do tend to live in reality. The internet is for fun and information. I can separate reality from the internet. Most folks probably can too.

Quote:
if I want a car for a track day I like the car that actaully will do better that day. does not have to be the fastest.
Agreed - which is why I, personally, would not pick either one as a track car. In or below this price range, I'd get a Boss (and consider the 1LE when it does come out). If I wanted to spend the coin, I'd get a Z06 and call it a day - be it road course, drag strip, or cruising.

Quote:
of all the amercian cars tested the ZL1 is one of the few that does not seem to exibit bad behaviors during a review on the track. with the exeption of Z06 Z07, Zr1 but they usually get reviewed as being harsh at the limit and they are.
You can make that arguement, but if you read the MT comments on the ZL1, it wasn't immune to bad behavior completely (understeer without the nannies), though I agree that the ZL1 would be considered the better road course car by most. For everything else...from my perspective based on my biases and wants....different story.

Don't ask why I'm argueing this....its the internet..

To each their own.
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:03 PM   #86
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Haha no just think they are both amazing cars. I think the Z just needs more speed. Being left at every stop light would get old. Outside looks of the Z and road manners/handling are a 10/10 I think.
Trust me, I hate seeing the ZL1 getting destroyed at the strip by the GT500, so I have to lean on the track performance and all around driveability of the ZL1
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:03 PM   #87
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I enjoyed the MT review and data the most. Cash in hand i would walk away with the ZL1.
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:08 PM   #88
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Trust me, I hate seeing the ZL1 getting destroyed at the strip by the GT500, so I have to lean on the track performance and all around driveability of the ZL1
it's more fun driving a car more than 12 seconds anyway. BTW, I love your white ZL1.
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:18 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Cosby View Post
Ok. For the sake of discussion, and because its very slow here today, I combined all the acceleration stuff (and top speed) into "acceleration", and came up with this (just as useless, but fun) little matrix. It shows "wins" for each category based on the 4 magazine's results:

Final results = 3-1-1
I think your "Matrix" is more useful than the previously mentioned chart.

However, are you giving the GT500 the nod in the Motor Trend road course test? The Motor Trend review called its road course test a tie, even the the GT500 had the faster single lap because the GT500 couldn't sustain its lap time due to brake fade, while the ZL1 did.

Given the Motor Trend road course tie, I would characterize the final results as 2-1-2, essentially within the margin of error.
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:31 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Bob Cosby View Post
Ok. For the sake of discussion, and because its very slow here today, I combined all the acceleration stuff (and top speed) into "acceleration", and came up with this (just as useless, but fun) little matrix. It shows "wins" for each category based on the 4 magazine's results:
Don't forget that the cost advantage goes to the zl1 for all 4 reviews. So you can chalk that down on a column somewhere.

Most if not all of the mag reviewers have chosen the zl1 as the overall winner. So remember to also put that in a spread sheet.

And I think the motor trend review is an excellent example of why they chose the zl1. For every day driving they preferred the zl1, at the drag strip the gt500 wins, on the road track they look at it two ways: the gt500 got the fastest single lap, but the zl1 won after 3 laps. The zl1 was more consistent and stable. This and the every day driving caused them to make their final decision.

But they also talk about well-controlled body motions, planted suspension, and unshakable confidence. Some of these things are much harder to quantify and place in a spread sheet. (It could be done but it would require much more extensive data acquisition, analysis and testing.)
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:37 PM   #91
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it's more fun driving a car more than 12 seconds anyway. BTW, I love your white ZL1.
Thank you

I have to agree 100%. I went to Buttonwillow Raceway last Friday and spent the day on the track and have never had more fun in my life. The dragstrip has nothing on the roadcourse in terms of pure fun.
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:53 PM   #92
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You guys aren't getting it.

It's not about comfort.

It's not about magnetic suspension.

It's not about LRA vs IRS.

It's not about power.

It's all about brakes. The GT500 lost because of brakes.

Let's talk about that.
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Old 06-27-2012, 02:00 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by GoldenBear View Post
I think your "Matrix" is more useful than the previously mentioned chart.

However, are you giving the GT500 the nod in the Motor Trend road course test? The Motor Trend review called its road course test a tie, even the the GT500 had the faster single lap because the GT500 couldn't sustain its lap time due to brake fade, while the ZL1 did.

Given the Motor Trend road course tie, I would characterize the final results as 2-1-2, essentially within the margin of error.
Yes, I was giving it to the GT500. I can see your point...could go either way.

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Don't forget that the cost advantage goes to the zl1 for all 4 reviews. So you can chalk that down on a column somewhere.
Ok. Will go with "as tested" vice base price, so will chalk that win up to the ZL1

Quote:
Most if not all of the mag reviewers have chosen the zl1 as the overall winner. So remember to also put that in a spread sheet.
Eh, if you wish. That is personal preference vice hard objective data, but ok.

If we did just that, we'd end up with 3-3-1. That's probably a rather reasonable outcome. However, if I'm going to add those two that you want, I suppose I could go ahead and put MPG back in as a stat, and perhaps have top speed separate from "Acceleration".

In the end, we could go on and on, twisting and spinning the statistics in whichever way it is that best promotes our own choice.

Quote:
And I think the motor trend review is an excellent example of why they chose the zl1. For every day driving they preferred the zl1, at the drag strip the gt500 wins, on the road track they look at it two ways: the gt500 got the fastest single lap, but the zl1 won after 3 laps. The zl1 was more consistent and stable. This and the every day driving caused them to make their final decision.
No issues with that. At the end of the day, we all have to make our own choice based on our own biases, needs, wants, and abilities to acquire.

Quote:
But they also talk about well-controlled body motions, planted suspension, and unshakable confidence. Some of these things are much harder to quantify and place in a spread sheet. (It could be done but it would require much more extensive data acquisition, analysis and testing.)
Yup. To counter, there are some that actually prefer a bit more...I don't know..."on the edge" feel from a car? They are performance cars....

To each their own. And I'm glad we can debate/argue/discuss this without getting our collective panties (or underwear) in a wad.... or getting banned....
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Old 06-27-2012, 02:02 PM   #94
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I'd prefer the car that is more comfortable where it will spend more than 99% of it's time for most, the street. And still have a blast at the drag strip or road course.

If I wanted a straight line car I'd build a kickass drag car for less than a 1/3 of the money and smoke both of them at the track. Just sayin..

Didn't buy the car to win trophies, I bought the car to have fun while maintaining comfort where it matters most.
Exactly, It wouldn't take much more in my 4th gen Z28 to smoke 500 or ZL1 in a straight line. But the ZL1 is so great b/c it can do everything very well.
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Old 06-27-2012, 02:07 PM   #95
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I want to see base GT500 vs upgraded shocks / track pack options. See how much difference there is.
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Old 06-27-2012, 02:08 PM   #96
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There is no need for a rebuttal from Chevrolet as most reviews so far have concluded that the ZL1 is the better overall vehicle.
On the contrary, I feel that there is a lot of opportunity for Chevy to improve. The ford has shown that it is more than a match for the ZL1 in many of the performance categories and, as I said a few times earlier, the GT500 was no slouch on the road course.

Its one thing to have a preference, but how does that preference translate on a track or a road course? That's the question that Chevrolet needs to answer.
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Old 06-27-2012, 02:18 PM   #97
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On the contrary, I feel that there is a lot of opportunity for Chevy to improve. The ford has shown that it is more than a match for the ZL1 in many of the performance categories and, as I said a few times earlier, the GT500 was no slouch on the road course.

Its one thing to have a preference, but how does that preference translate on a track or a road course? That's the question that Chevrolet needs to answer.
There's difference between rebutting and improving. Certainly, there is room for improvement with the ZL1, but I don't think any "rebuttal" to the GT500 is necessary, as most reviews so far conclude that the ZL1 is the better vehicle.
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Old 06-27-2012, 02:23 PM   #98
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Amen!!
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Old 06-27-2012, 02:25 PM   #99
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If you are into the dragstrip. Screaming success elsewise. The 1LE is being designed for the strip though so watch out!
it's designed to handle the twisty roads & road courses
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Old 06-27-2012, 02:26 PM   #100
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About time we had a comparison between the rivals.

No real surprises if you ask me. I do agree that each fan boy will like their car regardless of the outcome.
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