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Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons Bolt-Ons | Intakes | Exhaust

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Old 06-27-2012, 12:25 PM   #1
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difference for the LT headers in 1 7/8 or 1 3/4

I need to know if you guys know the difference and which one is better, because I just buy the 1 3/4 LT HEADERS and I see other brands who make this in 1 7/8 to.....

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Old 06-27-2012, 01:07 PM   #2
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1 3/4 if you don't plan on making ridiculous HP...1 7/8 for ridiculous HP...and 2" for INSANE HP.
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:12 PM   #3
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Generally when you use a header that is to big for your application you lose some torque down low. For LS3 applications a 1 7/8 tube seems to be a great blend for top end power and torque and doesn't seem to lose anything down low. The 1 3/4" seems to be lost to the LS3 Camaro's but would actually be suited just fine for a bolt on car but at the same price you'd be better off with the 1 7/8". I wouldn't recommend the 2" header to anyone under 800 HP or so.
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:18 PM   #4
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Quote:
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Generally when you use a header that is to big for your application you lose some torque down low. For LS3 application a 1 7/8 tube seems to be a great blend for top end power and torque. The 1 3/4" seems to be lost to the LS3 Camaro's but would actually be suited just fine for a bolt on car. I wouldn't recommend the 2" header to anyone under 800 HP or so.
Grrrrr, show me some dyno charts that validate your claim of "loss of low end torque." You are perpetuating a myth!

The only drawback to larger primaries is cost (and fitment to a lesser degree). You do not lose low end with these cars with increases in primary diameter.
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:35 PM   #5
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I have 1 3/4" because I got a smokin' deal on a set of used ones. No way I could've turned them down. I don't have true back to back comparison because I've never switched them out. However, I can say my car still runs good at the track. I've even beat other Camaros that had the same basic bolt-ons but with 1 7/8" headers (difference being that I had suspension work and they didn't). My car dynoed about 3 less HP than the average 1 7/8" on the same shop's dyno.

All in all there is nothing wrong with 1 3/4" headers. You'll never notice or feel the difference in 3 or 4 hp. That being said, if I were to buy brand new and money not being an issue I would still lean towards 1 7/8" just in case you were to add a big cam or super charger down the road. If you know for sure you won't do that or you found a good deal on 1 3/4" then stick with that.
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Old 06-27-2012, 01:40 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by geaux_tigerss View Post
Grrrrr, show me some dyno charts that validate your claim of "loss of low end torque." You are perpetuating a myth!

The only drawback to larger primaries is cost (and fitment to a lesser degree). You do not lose low end with these cars with increases in primary diameter.
Actually Juiced1 is correct. It is way down low though.

I went from SOLO cats to 1 7/8 headers and immediately noticed a difference. The way to maximize testing this, would be to cruise down the hiway at 65 mph in 6th gear (LS3), quickly increase the throttle position by a very small percentage and not only pay close attention to how much squat you feel but how quickly the mph increases. There is a noticable difference. Once you move up in the rpms it no longer is noticable and the opposite happens.

It is hilly around and I noticed I had to give it more throttle to maintain a climb or downshift where-as before the headers it would climb no problem. Don't get me wrong, once up in the rpms the headers really shine.
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Old 06-27-2012, 03:23 PM   #7
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if you have ported heads, go with the bigger ones. i went with 1 7/8 because that is how big the exhaust ports were. stock heads, go with 1 3/4.
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Old 06-27-2012, 03:29 PM   #8
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Quote:
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Grrrrr, show me some dyno charts that validate your claim of "loss of low end torque." You are perpetuating a myth!

The only drawback to larger primaries is cost (and fitment to a lesser degree). You do not lose low end with these cars with increases in primary diameter.
Exactly. I did a true back to back dyno back in the day on my LS1 bolt on 98 SS. I had 1 3/4 headers and then swapped to 1 7/8 headers. The dyno curves were EXACTLY the same from just under 2,000 all the way to about 4,500. After 4,500 rpm the HP and TQ both started climbing on the 1 7/8 headers. The difference was only about 5 hp 4 tq but remember this was only a bolt on LS1 so anything with more power like our LS3 will have a bigger gain.

I think 1 3/4 are a waste on these cars unless you get them for a CRAZY good price, like $100. I went with 1 7/8 but would swap to 2" on my bolt on car in a heartbeat if they weren't so expensive.
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Old 06-27-2012, 03:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juiced1 View Post
Generally when you use a header that is to big for your application you lose some torque down low. For LS3 application a 1 7/8 tube seems to be a great blend for top end power and torque. The 1 3/4" seems to be lost to the LS3 Camaro's but would actually be suited just fine for a bolt on car. I wouldn't recommend the 2" header to anyone under 800 HP or so.
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Actually Juiced1 is correct. It is way down low though.

I went from SOLO cats to 1 7/8 headers and immediately noticed a difference. The way to maximize testing this, would be to cruise down the hiway at 65 mph in 6th gear (LS3), quickly increase the throttle position by a very small percentage and not only pay close attention to how much squat you feel but how quickly the mph increases. There is a noticable difference. Once you move up in the rpms it no longer is noticable and the opposite happens.

It is hilly around and I noticed I had to give it more throttle to maintain a climb or downshift where-as before the headers it would climb no problem. Don't get me wrong, once up in the rpms the headers really shine.
Actually, dyno tests have shown ZERO low end difference between the 1 3/4, 1 7/8 and 2". The HP and Trq curves are identical until you reach the 4k rpm range. After 4k, the 1 3/4 begins to drop off from the other 2.
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Old 06-27-2012, 03:57 PM   #10
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No one really runs 1 3/4" on these cars. 1 7/8" are pretty much the same powe wise, and give you room to grow. The only exception is stepped headers. When designed right, a 1 3/4" stepped to 1 7/8" header can out perform a straight 1 7/8" header.
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Old 06-27-2012, 04:02 PM   #11
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i seen test from someone i think it was jannetty racing that did a comparison
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Old 06-27-2012, 04:30 PM   #12
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i seen test from someone i think it was jannetty racing that did a comparison
Yep, and that test showed that bigger primaries had higher tq and hp all the way through the rpm range. I want to see a single dyno that shows otherwise. Back pressure is a myth on modern fuel injected cars.
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Old 06-27-2012, 05:02 PM   #13
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Look into Kooks stepped headers if you can't decide. They start at 1 3/4 and step up to 1 7/8. My tuner showed me several dyno sheets with the same mods compared to mine on one sheet. Mine did better than the others in HP and TQ.
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Old 06-27-2012, 05:05 PM   #14
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ARH 2" wouldn't be bad on a all out Heads Cam build like I see shops run on big builds!
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Old 06-27-2012, 05:29 PM   #15
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This is the area that seems to cause the most confusion when customers are selecting headers but it is fairly straight forward. Header manufacturers usually offer two or three options when is comes to primary diameters for a specific vehicle. For example, for the Camaro SS most manufacturers are offering 1 3/4 inch, 1 7/8 inch, and 2 inch primaries. By simply switching from the restrictive stock manifolds to 1 3/4 long tube headers is worth approximately 30 RWHP and 30 RWTQ on a bone stock Camaro SS. The larger the primary diameter gets the more air the headers will flow and the further up the RPM range the power band is moved. The impact of the larger primary diameters is magnified the more powerful the engine is, especially when you introduce forced induction. This means that generally the more power you make or the more race oriented your application is the bigger primary diameter you need, the closer to stock or the more street oriented the smaller primary diameter you need.

In the specific example of the 2010+ Camaro SS, we have found that the 1 7/8 long tube headers are the best all around header for the typical bolt on modified car that is driven regularly and occasionally taken to the track. They offer a tremendous improvement over stock with room to grow as owners modify their car further. The 2 inch headers offer very similar numbers to the 1 7/8 headers up to 5000 RPM where the 2 inch headers pull ahead. They are ideal for those running forced induction or for race applications.
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Old 06-27-2012, 05:56 PM   #16
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Since the OP already bought the 1 3/4" it will be up to him to decide if he's willing to take a hit and re-purchase some 1 7/8". Maybe he can pay to have them shipped back to the person he bought from and then upgrade to 1 7/8".

As others have mentioned, if I were buying new I would go with the 1 7/8" or the stepped headers but it's not like the 1 3/4" are junk. My car put down 412 rwhp where most from 1 7/8" from the shop put 415. When it comes to racing there is more to it than a few HP will make up for. As I've mentioned I've beaten other Camaros at the track with the same basic set up. I paid $400 for a set of KOOKS with brand new HF cats. That was a hell of a lot better than the $1,200 for a set of new 1 7/8" KOOKS I was about to pull the trigger on.

Several months back I even had a set of used ARH 1 7/8" in my hand that I got for a great deal. I was about to swap them for my 1 3/4" but decided the few extra HP wasn't worth the effort. I decided to make a profit and take that money to put towards gears. Still no regrets on that decision.
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Old 06-27-2012, 06:53 PM   #17
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*sigh*....and now somebody bring up American made vs. foreign and stainless vs. mild steel and blah blah blah that comes up in every other header thread. :-)

OP, if you got a smokin' deal on some 1 3/4 headers, bolt those suckers up and run the hell out of 'em until you're ready to step up to a cam/blower/turbo/etc. I would bet dollars to pesos that you will love the power and sound and will never miss the 3-5hp.
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Old 06-28-2012, 05:01 AM   #18
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just something for your consideration...everybody likes pictures.

http://www.sandersonheaders.com/Lets-Get-Technical.html
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Old 06-28-2012, 06:57 AM   #19
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just something for your consideration...everybody likes pictures.

http://www.sandersonheaders.com/Lets-Get-Technical.html

Thank you for that.

On the LS3 it's as simple as trying to take off from a complete stop at 700 - 800 rpm in second gear with stock manifolds versus 1 7/8. While the method is extreme, it is easier for those not that in tune with their own engine to verify the difference in torque. I'd imagine it would be pretty difficult to tell or feel the difference between 1 3/4 and 1 7/8 though.
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:40 AM   #20
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just something for your consideration...everybody likes pictures.

http://www.sandersonheaders.com/Lets-Get-Technical.html
That motor has absolutely nothing in common with a Gen 5 camaro. It's a cammed CARBURETED big block. Once again, fuel injection is the difference. Did you actually read the thread before posting?
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Old 06-28-2012, 09:50 AM   #21
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That motor has absolutely nothing in common with a Gen 5 camaro. It's a cammed CARBURETED big block. Once again, fuel injection is the difference. Did you actually read the thread before posting?
seriously? why does it feel like your always yelling in your posts?

so if there is absolutely NO difference between the two primary sizes...then can you explain why all these manufacturers have invested the time and money in R&D to provide these options? its obvious to me they each have their own application depending on what the user wants.

also...explain how a stepped header DOES make a difference if there is supposedly no difference between the 1 3/4" and 1 7/8". because in order for the stepped header to make a difference in comparison to the other two...then there MUST be a difference between them. the top end HP gain might not be more than 1-2HP apart...but what about the low to mid range RPM band?

you stated that its "myth" but i saw nothing in your posts that backed your claims either. maybe the difference between the 2 isn't great...but your making your claims and statements with nothing to back up your argument either. carburation vs fuel injection vs direct injection...whatever, thats not the point here. it was COMPARISON data on the same engine where primary size DID make a difference. you can't shoot down an argument with that kind of silliness

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Old 06-28-2012, 10:56 AM   #22
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seriously? why does it feel like your always yelling in your posts?

so if there is absolutely NO difference between the two primary sizes...then can you explain why all these manufacturers have invested the time and money in R&D to provide these options? its obvious to me they each have their own application depending on what the user wants.

also...explain how a stepped header DOES make a difference if there is supposedly no difference between the 1 3/4" and 1 7/8". because in order for the stepped header to make a difference in comparison to the other two...then there MUST be a difference between them. the top end HP gain might not be more than 1-2HP apart...but what about the low to mid range RPM band?

you stated that its "myth" but i saw nothing in your posts that backed your claims either. maybe the difference between the 2 isn't great...but your making your claims and statements with nothing to back up your argument either. carburation vs fuel injection vs direct injection...whatever, thats not the point here. it was COMPARISON data on the same engine where primary size DID make a difference. you can't shoot down an argument with that kind of silliness

I'm not going to speculate on why so many sizes are offered. That's up to sales and marketing. Although price points and ease of installation may come into play.

I also can't explain the stepped headers (good r&d from kooks I guess). But telling someone that on this car larger primaries lead to loss of low end tq is a flat out lie. Show me an ls3/l99 dyno chart that says otherwise.

The op is making a decision on a fuel injected ls motor. If I weren't on my phone I'd search and provide a dyno chart comparing primaries on THIS CAR (jre did one for all three sizes that showed gains all of the way across the rpm range). Posting an article on a completely different motor does nothing but confuse people.
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Old 06-28-2012, 11:22 AM   #23
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i get where your coming from, and my lack of awareness on seeing the comparison dyno's could be hindering my ability to see that there is no difference between the sizes. but i believe that kooks did the R&D and provides the different primaries for a reason...not just price points as the MSRP is less than a $15.00 difference. i'll do some more research into this and hopefully have a better answer when im done...one way or the other. either a carbureted or fuel injected motor will have similar responses to design theory with minor tweaks here and there, its to be expected as technology improves.
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Old 06-28-2012, 11:48 AM   #24
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I've seen 100's of posts stating a noticiable loss of low end torque immediately after header install. I've experienced it myself and it wasn't until after my dyno tune that I gained it back. That being said, I would assume that the loss of low end torque is tune related, not engine related like is was back in the day.
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Old 06-28-2012, 12:28 PM   #25
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I've seen 100's of posts stating a noticiable loss of low end torque immediately after header install. I've experienced it myself and it wasn't until after my dyno tune that I gained it back. That being said, I would assume that the loss of low end torque is tune related, not engine related like is was back in the day.
See I've never seen or heard of it other than unsubstantiated anecdotes. I rode headers without a tune for months and felt no decreases. Could be though. The butt dyno isn't a very reliable data source.
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