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Old 12-19-2007, 11:49 PM   #1
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Hope we won't lose the Camaro again...

after the 5thgen??? With the onset of the new CAFE std. (many on here seem to be ignoring) I have great concern over the future of our beloved Camaro. Sure there are plenty of resources to turn to but how much will it take before folks decide they don't want to spend the money on an environmentally high-performance coupe because all the technological innovations sent the cost through the roof??? Of course I'm not trying to be a pessimist, but it's only a matter of time before reality sets in.:( Scott, is there hope???
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Old 12-19-2007, 11:56 PM   #2
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dont be as negative nancy.
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Old 12-20-2007, 12:16 AM   #3
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Yes, the future of the internal combustion muscle car is in jeopardy. Thing is, even current electric tech is showing that it can make cars faster and lighter than IC cars.

PS. I'm even LOVING the styling of the Volt. http://www.gm-volt.com/wp-content/up.../volt-side.jpg

PPS. And yes, I know it has vestiges of the 5th gen look in it.
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Old 12-20-2007, 12:23 AM   #4
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Don't grow too attached to the Volt's styling. Bob said it made for depressing aerodynamics and it would have been better if they put it in the wind tunnel backwards. It is being completely restyled now.

The rest of the RWD projects were put on hold when the new CAFE was first considered, but the G8 and Camaro were too far along to stop. They'll have to keep them out for a while to make the development worth the cost. Also, GM can afford to keep a few performance cars and still make the standard, and people will still buy it.
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Old 12-20-2007, 01:36 AM   #5
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Here is how CAFE works...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAFE

For the purposes of CAFE, a manufacturer's car output is divided into a domestic fleet (vehicles with more than 75% U.S., Canadian or—after the passage of NAFTA—Mexican content) and a foreign fleet (everything else). Each of these fleets must separately meet the requirements. The two-fleet requirement was developed by the United Automobile Workers (UAW) as a means to ensure job creation in the US. The UAW successfully lobbied Congress to write this provision into the enabling legislation. The UAW continues to advocate this position.[14] The two fleet rule for light trucks was removed in 1996.

Fuel economy calculation for alternative fuel vehicles multiplies the actual fuel used by a "Fuel Content" Factor of 0.15[15] as an incentive to develop alternative fuel vehicles.[16] Dual-fuel vehicles, such as E85 capable models, are taken as the average of this alternative fuel rating and its gasoline rate. Thus a 15 mpg dual-fuel E85 capable vehicle would be rated as 40 mpg for CAFE purposes, in spite of the fact that less than 1% of the fuel used in E85 capable vehicles is actually E85. [5]

Manufacturers are also allowed to earn CAFE "credits" in any year they exceed CAFE requirements, which they may use to offset deficiencies in other years. CAFE credits can be applied to the three years previous or three years subsequent to the year in which they are earned. The reason for this requirement is so that manufacturers are not penalized for occasionally (due to market conditions, for example) failing the targets, but only for persistent failure to meet them.

Fleet fuel economy is calculated using a harmonic mean, which results in slightly different values than simple averaging.[2]

Nother good note...

Calculations of MPG overestimated

The EPA laboratory measurements of MPG have consistently overestimated fuel economy. This results in a shortfall of about 15% in actual vs. measured CAFE goals. Starting with vehicles in model year 2008, the EPA is improving their estimates of MPG.[48] This change does not affect CAFE ratings, only Consumer Guide values will change to reflect more realistic fuel efficiencies. [49]

The NHTSA spends a third of one percent of its budget on CAFE or 0.0004% of US gasoline expenditures.[50] [51]
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Old 12-20-2007, 06:41 AM   #6
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What pisses me off is that our beloved high performance cars get threatened with figurative castration or extinction altogether, yet the light trucks will always continue to get horrible fuel economy while no one ever mentions discontinuing those models.

I understand that performance cars are a "niche market" and trucks are a necessity, and that trucks sell a lot more than performance cars, but I just wish they'd focus more attention on trucks instead of making every muscle car enthusiast worry about their favorite car getting the axe (again for the Camaro).

Ah well, enjoy it while you can.

Last edited by Warghost; 12-20-2007 at 06:42 AM. Reason: My dog ate the spellchecker.
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Old 12-20-2007, 08:04 AM   #7
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The Goverment over here is even worse on cars then over there. My plan with this car is to buy it and enjoy a petrol run power car while I still can and the petrol tax hasn't been souped up too much. It already makes the gas cost three times the average cost then in the US.
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Old 12-20-2007, 08:31 AM   #8
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I can't take much more of this doom-and-gloom crap.
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Old 12-20-2007, 10:48 AM   #9
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Anyone notice the E85 loophole? 15mpg gasoline = 40 mpg E85 rating. So all GM has to do is make half their cars E85 capable and they are set. Add to that some hybrids and the volt and the are laughing
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Old 12-20-2007, 10:54 AM   #10
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As long as they don't close that loophole
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Old 12-20-2007, 11:13 AM   #11
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As long as they don't close that loophole
Exactly. Hopefully, that loophole be enough to keep the Government happy for a while.
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Old 12-20-2007, 12:02 PM   #12
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Anyone notice the E85 loophole? 15mpg gasoline = 40 mpg E85 rating. So all GM has to do is make half their cars E85 capable and they are set. Add to that some hybrids and the volt and the are laughing
I don't understand how that works though. E85 actually gets LESS mpg than regular gasoline. So how do they come up with an, obviously, unrealistic number?
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Old 12-20-2007, 12:08 PM   #13
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^ Not only that but E85 also emits more CO2 than petrol and there's no real infrastructure outside of the Midwest, but yet GM markets the crap out of it.
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Old 12-20-2007, 12:50 PM   #14
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http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showpo...8&postcount=24
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Old 12-20-2007, 12:58 PM   #15
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^ Not only that but E85 also emits more CO2 than petrol
It does? Everything I've read says that it's slightly less than petrol.....

But in any event. The point of E85 has become national security. We are eating out of the hands of volatile foriegn nations, and not only that, but we are eating a slowly depleting resource.

E85 is one part, (also the first introduced) of the solution. If we can make it ourselves there is unimaginable benefits.

This whole "green" movement is crap, Imo, and if we were to argue CO2 emissions, I'd tell you that we were converting plants into fuel, and releasing C02 that would otherwise have been emmitted anyways through decomposition. As opposed to digging up Mother Nature's crap, literally, and burning it.

BUT - back to the point of the thread - If we have vehicles that can burn a fuel from a stable source, the gov't's idea is that that is a good thing, so we'll give you a bonus for it. It has nothing to do with real fuel economy numbers, EllwynX.

Just a sidenote...it IS a good thing that GM is producing these flex-fuel vehicles - but do you think that GM is doing solely for the reason that it's the right thing to do? No. They're taking advantage of a path around a stupid-ass law, too.
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Old 12-20-2007, 01:02 PM   #16
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Ethanol is better than petroleum for the environment. Stop pretending otherwise. Do your research. It burns cleaner. Carbon dioxide is cleaner than many of the other emissions that petroleum produces. It's not clean. It's cleaner.

As muscle car enthusiasts, instead of complaining it is our job to come up with a way to make environmentally friendly powerhouses on the road. This movement is not going to change, so start innovating. It took us a long time to learn how to make gas-powered cars fast, so we need to start spending time researching how these hybrids or E85 cars can attain new heights in power.

The first step is to get over it. We will still get our Camaros, but we should take some responsibility for making our cars fast and stop complaining about how the environment is hurting our cars. Our cars have been hurting the environment for over a century!
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Old 12-20-2007, 01:12 PM   #17
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the problem that foods like beef and corn are taking it in the ass because corn is being used for ethanol, the real secret is drilling in anwar, remember 6 years ago when they said anwar wouldnt matter because it would take 6 years to get it operational? well it seems kinda silly now doesnt it. also can someone even prove to me that man is causing global warming....
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Old 12-20-2007, 01:23 PM   #18
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Ethanol is better than petroleum for the environment. Stop pretending otherwise. Do your research. It burns cleaner. Carbon dioxide is cleaner than many of the other emissions that petroleum produces. It's not clean. It's cleaner.
There are two schools of thought regarding ethanol fuel:

The first says that ethanol is the greatest thing ever, the second says its pretty much a scam. If one does their research they will find both sides of the story. I lean towards the later, for now. Basically, in order to create ethanol fuel, you need tonnes of fertilizers and pesticides. For the most part these are derived from petroleum. Secondly, the process to turn corn into ethanol requires massive amounts of energy. All told, it costs about as much oil to make ethanol fuel from corn as you get out of it, compared to a 1:5 return from regular oil. on the up side, ethanol is renewable and the CO2 produced does go down significantly overall, since it gets absorbed by next years crops

But most of that goes out the window when talking about cellulose based ethanol. That is a great idea, no doubt about it.
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Old 12-20-2007, 01:25 PM   #19
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the problem that foods like beef and corn are taking it in the ass because corn is being used for ethanol,
Yes...but not as much as most people think. Gas is rising, too - you know, so to transport, and harvest all that crap it costs more.

But I digress. Cellulosic Ethanol is an excellent source of ethanol. and in turn. an excellent source of fuel for our Camaro's.

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also can someone even prove to me that man is causing global warming....
Nope.

Basically. No. I don't think our Camaro's are going anywhere. BE PREPARED FOR CHANGE. but they're gonna stay.
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Old 12-20-2007, 03:27 PM   #20
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also can someone even prove to me that man is causing global warming....
Global warming is a natural phenomenon that occurs periodically. Earth is due for another ice age, but first there must be global warming.

Human beings are not the cause of global warming; however, the emissions produced by mankind since the Industrial Revolution have made global warming worse than it has to be. That means the next ice age will do significantly more damage to civilization than it did in the past. Therefore, in order to bring down the impact of global warming, we should contribute less toxic emissions. That leads to the final reason to produce less toxic emissions—they're toxic! Toxic things are bad for everyone and everything. If it's toxic, we should find a way to replace it with something that isn't toxic or to remove all toxic elements of the product. We don't have to produce carbon dioxide if there's an alternative, so why not have an alternative? Sure, it's costly for research and development, but it's better than being responsible for the end of civilization on this planet.

SUMMARY
• Global warming is natural, periodic, and leads to an ice age.
• We made it worse, so the consequences will be worse.
• To reduce the consequences, we should use alternative fuels that are cleaner.
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Old 12-20-2007, 04:03 PM   #21
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What's the issue with bringing cellulosic ethanol to the masses then if it's the best alternative??? Would an E85 engine be compatible with cellulosic ethanol??

Starting discussions like this is healthy, you can't learn everything on your own, definitely not another's perspective.
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Old 12-20-2007, 04:15 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Blur View Post
Global warming is a natural phenomenon that occurs periodically. Earth is due for another ice age, but first there must be global warming.

Human beings are not the cause of global warming; however, the emissions produced by mankind since the Industrial Revolution have made global warming worse than it has to be. That means the next ice age will do significantly more damage to civilization than it did in the past. Therefore, in order to bring down the impact of global warming, we should contribute less toxic emissions. That leads to the final reason to produce less toxic emissions—they're toxic! Toxic things are bad for everyone and everything. If it's toxic, we should find a way to replace it with something that isn't toxic or to remove all toxic elements of the product. We don't have to produce carbon dioxide if there's an alternative, so why not have an alternative? Sure, it's costly for research and development, but it's better than being responsible for the end of civilization on this planet.

SUMMARY
• Global warming is natural, periodic, and leads to an ice age.
• We made it worse, so the consequences will be worse.
• To reduce the consequences, we should use alternative fuels that are cleaner.
Thats the best summary of global warming i have ever seen
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Old 12-20-2007, 04:21 PM   #23
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This is an interesting article.

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-new...l-ar49401.html

No more California emissions...
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Old 12-20-2007, 04:28 PM   #24
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What's the issue with bringing cellulosic ethanol to the masses then if it's the best alternative??? Would an E85 engine be compatible with cellulosic ethanol??

Starting discussions like this is healthy, you can't learn everything on your own, definitely not another's perspective.
Ethanol is a chemical, C2H5-OH. That doesn't change whether you get it from rice, corn, grapes or what ever. Yup, ethanol is the same alcohol that you drink in beer or wine or moonshine or anything else. A car engine doesn't care where you get the ethanol from, just like your stomac doesn't care when you drink the stuff (don't drink E85 even though its 85% ethanol, its still 15% gasoline!). However, your wallet does care where you get ethanol from, and so do cows, and lots of other things. There are two basic ways to make it, use sugar or use cellulose. Using sugar means that you need to get it from some sort of food, corn is the most popular. Problem is, if you use a crop of corn to make fuel nothing can eat the corn. But by using the corn stalks, which are high in cellulose and are otherwise useless, you have gained a basically free energy source. The problem here is that there isn't an efficient way to convert cellulose into ethanol, but chemists, biologists, and engineers are working hard to find a way.

That clear things up?
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Old 12-20-2007, 04:49 PM   #25
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^Enahnced my perspective. Thanks.

Here's an article I pulled up from a search for cellulosic ethanol:
http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18227/

Again, investment in an infrastructure seems to be the only serious issue for cellulosic ethanol. No matter how you look at it, something has to be done, soon.
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